crazy talk

[Maenetus]

One of the designers mentioned the movie Gladiator the other day. Watch how Maximus uses his shield -- he isn't cowering behind it -- he's bashing people in the face with it. Shields should be a viable form of combat, not the option to avoid combat. It would be awesome if some day Arms was the 2H tree, Fury was the DW tree, and Prot was the sword and board tree. Prot has a long way to go before it's more PvP viable, but maybe, just maybe there could be a tree where control and survivability were an alternative to just bigger damage. It may not happen this expansion, but it's a step in that direction.

I like it how they talk about druids, warriors and DK's
Fack paladins right ? lol

->

One of the designers mentioned the movie Gladiator the other day. Watch how Maximus uses his shield -- he isn't cowering behind it -- he's bashing people in the face with it. Shields should be a viable form of combat, not the option to avoid combat. It would be awesome if some day Ret was the 2H tree, and Prot was the sword and board tree. Prot has a long way to go before it's more PvP viable, but maybe, just maybe there could be a tree where control and survivability were an alternative to just bigger damage. It may not happen this expansion, but it's a step in that direction.

shammys wear shields, too, it would be nice to fine some active use for them, not just armor filler for pvp
please, make shields a viable form of combat!

-> CRAZY TALK

One of the designers mentioned the movie Gladiator the other day. Watch how Maximus uses his shield -- he isn't cowering behind it -- he's bashing people in the face with it. Shields should be a viable form of combat, not the option to avoid combat. It would be awesome if some day Elemental was the caster tree, Resto was the healing tree, and Enh was the axe and board tree. Prot has a long way to go before it's more PvP viable, but maybe, just maybe there could be a tree where control and survivability were an alternative to just bigger damage. It may not happen this expansion, but it's a step in that direction.

clearly going too far with the idea, but I thought I'd post it anyways

[Nilaihah]

Thing is... if you add competitive damage to the crazy mitigation they already have, you'll be overpowering those trees.

[Maenetus]

against melee prot has crazy mitigation from the front.
but from the rear or verses casters it's not that spectacular.

The extreme rock paper scissors aspect is hard to overcome.

but for shaman it's easier since they don't have the crazy mitigation.

[Alltat]

Thing is... if you add competitive damage to the crazy mitigation they already have, you'll be overpowering those trees.

Depends on what you consider to be "competitive damage". PvE dps with a shield may never happen, but that doesn't mean you can't boost sword & board dps to a point where it's entirely viable for PvP, solo questing, grinding, etc. Right now a prot warrior may be hard to kill, but he's not really a threat to anyone in PvP, and despite having basically no downtime it's still not very impressive for soloing.


As for enhancement using a shield, I don't really see that happening, nor do I see the point of it. Some shield-based moves for resto or elemental could be interesting though. Imagine using your shield to knock the target away from you Thunderstorm-style, and you've got a melee move that's useful for resto/ele.

[Nilaihah]

boost sword & board dps to a point where it's entirely viable for PvP, solo questing, grinding, etc.

I'm pretty sure they said they're addressing that, I can't be arsed to look for a source though.

[Sarevokcz]

well, u prolly should quote my second post also, since i didnt mean shield for enhas, but more like defensive abilities for casters

no matter, ill quote myself

id doesnt have to be exactly for enha, since hes not the one who uses them that often, something maybe like "Thunder Lash" shield ability, with sparkling animation around shield and lightning from the sky, hitting, maybe incapacitating target for 1-2s, with 45s CD, with cool shield bashing animation
maybe some sort of throw shield, which would rotate in the air, knocking enemy down (like those basterds in MgT) for 1-2s, tho this sounds more like warr ability
for paladin dunno, inho could get for some duration his own damage, working basically as OH weapon for lets say 5-10s, again with nice bashing animation and some divine light around it, WHILE keeping armor bonus from shield ofc

[Soresu]

Imagine using your shield to knock the target away from you Thunderstorm-style, and you've got a melee move that's useful for resto/ele.

This'd be a useful tool for Enhancement as well - in self-preservation terms, knock-away so you have chance to get a heal off. It'd make Enhancement's healing capacity actually halfway useful in pvp, and give us half a chance against rogues.

EDIT- a thought about what the spell could be like, the shaman could charge their shield with lightning, then smack their target with it, knocking them back X yds.

[Nilaihah]

They moved into the realm of dualwielding for the Enhancement tree. I doubt they'll do anything for shields, as that'd dilute the tree.

[Soresu]

Did they remove Shield Specialisation altogether from Enhancement? We *used* to have a shield talent in enhance, back when we offtanked at lvl 60

[Maenetus]

Did they remove Shield Specialisation altogether from Enhancement? We *used* to have a shield talent in enhance, back when we offtanked at lvl 60

yeah looks like it's gone.

on live, shamans have the best shield spec talent

[Sarevokcz]

Did they remove Shield Specialisation altogether from Enhancement? We *used* to have a shield talent in enhance, back when we offtanked at lvl 60

oh, the golden times... tanking majordomo add or tiger boss add in ZG as ele... once i was trying to be third tank on hakkar, didnt went that well but it was helluwa fun

[velourea]

A SHIELD?!! next thing you'll know is you want snare removal at ghost dawg form! zomg! way too overpowdered

[Deleted]

overpowdered

Yes, you have to be careful with powder. Too much and you'll create a mess, too little and you'll get nothing useful. :P

[Anaema]

against melee prot has crazy mitigation from the front.
but from the rear or verses casters it's not that spectacular.

No. Mitigation stats like armor and block are NOT avoidance stats that are dodge and parry. So the gap you are seeing between attacking from the front or attacking from the back as far as mitigation ONLY is concerned isn't quite as large as you perceive it to be.

The difference between mitigation stats and avoidance stats is this:
Mitigation directly reduces the incoming damage taken by reducing it by a percent. Example: A fully armor capped tank reduces the physical damage he takes by attacks that hit him by 75%. So, a tank takes a blow that would normally land for 7000 for 1750 instead, because he has reduced the damage by 75% through mitigation. (.75 x 7000 = 5250 7000-5250=1750.)

Avoidance directly reduces the incoming damage taken by completely nullifying it. Example: A tank dodges a blow that would have landed for 7000 damage, thus taking none of it.

So, with the knowlegde that mitigation does not equal avoidance, you will find out that mitigation from the rear is very similar to mitigation from the front. Because 75% damage reduction does the same thing from the rear that it does from the front.

To correct your statement: Against melee prot has crazy mitigation avoidance from the front. Once again, mitigation stays the same from the back as it does from the front, excluding the small amount of mitigation gained from blocks and the amount of damage they ignore.

but for shaman it's easier since they don't have the crazy mitigation.

Shaman have pretty crazy mitigation if you are looking at the stat from the stand point of classes with less armor. As an example, my shaman has a little over 12000 armor unbuffed, while a warlock or a mage might have 2500. The difference is huge.

Also, the changes needed to make shields worth anything for dps would be massive. Even if the dps isn't as high as the potential for enhancement.

Fixed for math.

And bad english.

[Tigercat]

Anaema, while to someone else like me that is well versed in the tanking vocabulary your explanation of mitigation vs. avoidance is strong, I think some others may get hung up at one little thing.

4000 is not 75% of 7000.

The proper calculation will look something like this:

7000-3(7000/4)

Or in your format, .75 x 7000 = 5250 7000-5250=1750

So at the maximum armor amount, a blow that would hit for 7000 is actually reduced down to 1750.


Sorry to pick nits, but I'm bored >.>

[LTCrystallite]

I read something on the WoW forums about shammy.

It went like this:

OVER THE TOP SOLUTIONS:
Windfury weapon can now proc off of itself.
Totems can sing and dance and wear plate and be named.
Purge now gives us the buffs we dispel.
Thunderstorms typo in the beginning of beta seems like a good idea again for fixing a shaman, So it'll knock back 200 yards.
Warriors can now proc sword proc off of windfury and vice versa.
can you say: 2350/2042/1785/1596/1988/1976/2045/2964 oops target is dead.
Shaman can hex as many targets as he'd like.

haha i know this is not the place and time for this, but i found it satirically amusing. ^_^

[Sarevokcz]

Totems can sing and dance and wear plate and be named.

Purge now gives us the buffs we dispel.

Thunderstorms typo in the beginning of beta seems like a good idea again for fixing a shaman, So it'll knock back 200 yards.

can you say: 2350/2042/1785/1596/1988/1976/2045/2964 oops target is dead.

ahah
1. hilarious
2. woot, doublespellsteal, nice tho blizz would change it, so we can only dispell debuffs from others and get them on ourselves
3. yea, that could be nice *farming in ogrilla, rogue trying to kill me on mob* "damn man, i hope u have a paraschute cloak... or.... i hope not" *bam* rogue lying dead in the druid village in a middle of the map
4. WIN!

[LTCrystallite]

ahah
1. hilarious
2. woot, doublespellsteal, nice tho blizz would change it, so we can only dispell debuffs from others and get them on ourselves
3. yea, that could be nice *farming in ogrilla, rogue trying to kill me on mob* "damn man, i hope u have a paraschute cloak... or.... i hope not" *bam* rogue lying dead in the druid village in a middle of the map
4. WIN!

haha. i like #2. Well of course they will! we're overpowered remember? 
We NEED that debuff put on us.

I have to be satirical right now.
Crazy over the top solutions to shammy problems:
Totems: Can no longer be destroyed, except for earthbind, tremor, and fire damage totems. hm. naw meen?

Thunderstorm is now the 41 pointer while keeping it at the 5 yard knockback and same cooldown, and imp chain lightning could be the 51 talent:
Improved Chain Lightning: When you chain lightning, has a 50% chance to slow the targets by 40% for 3 seconds, a 50% chance to drain 5% of their mana, rage, energy or runic power, 50% chance to increase the chance to hit with spells on that target by 6%. In addition, your chain lightning now hits 5 targets total (like in D2 =D) and the cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds. In addition, the effect of your healing spells are lowered by 10%.
Totem of Wrath is no longer a talent, learnable by trainer.
(May be a tad bit complicated to program than to just leave it alone. xD haha)

Besides Lava Burst, 2 more casted spells would be introduced.

1 Magma ball - 2 second cast, no cooldown. Splashes lava at the target, reducing their chance to hit you with Melee, ranged, and spells by 2% for 4 seconds, dealing x - y damage. Fire school.

2 Tidal Blast - 1.5 second cast, 15 second cooldown. Blasts the target with
x - y frost damage, increasing their next global cooldown to 2 seconds. Frost School.

Offering some ideas is nice. But i know blizzard doesn't necessarily want us to do their job, i understand this, but hey, we do play their game, and we do pay per month.

To criticize even more, im glad that blizz thinks that everything is made out of lightning. I mean it must be. If something is "elemental" it makes "part of the base".
Elements of nature are Earth, Fire, Air, Water.
not lightning and more lightning.