Rogues replace Ret?

[Aressolo]

Assassination
Master Poisoner moved to Tier 9, no longer increases chance to hit with poison attacks, now increases the critical hit chance of all attacks made against any target you have poisoned by 1/2/3% and reduces the duration of all Poison effects applied to you by 17/34/50%. (This does not stack with the Paladin talent Heart of the Crusader.)

So Rogues are gonna replace retri paladins. With the change to JotW, BattleShout=BoM, and this one I don't think Retri will have a slot in raids.

I know that is Beta and things could change, but we paladins know how Blizz work with us in Betas.

Your thoughts?

[Unclean1]

Retri Pallies will be replaced when they suck. Same goes for bad rogues. Earn your place.

[Benj]

I have no idea what you are talking about TC.

[Aressolo]

My question is, just to be more clear, :

Why should I take a Ret paladin when a Rogue can do good DPS, has an Interrupt and gives the same 3% Critical debuff?

[Nuronv]

because the rogue doesn't regen mana would be my guess

[bbr]

Hunters can do that too.
As can shadowpriests.
And frost mages.


So, yeah, we can leave retadins out of the raid
Which is good, coz we only have 2 paladin slots anyway. (1 holy, 1 prot)

[Morden]

My question is, just to be more clear, :

Why should I take a Ret paladin when a Rogue can do good DPS, has an Interrupt and gives the same 3% Critical debuff?

for comedy value that if blizz dont fix the damned mana regen you'll go oom after 1-2mins (if you use potions) then you get to leave it on auto attack and then bugger off out of the room for 5mins.

hell as it currently stands the only way for pallys to regen mana, is to kill themselves and get battle rezed or use a soulstone....

but yeah if they can sort the pally's mana regen through boosting that talent, then it will be a lot better. hell if they did it so that 5-10% of the damage you do, goes to 10 raid members as mana it would be a start.

[ant1pathy]

Then spec Prot or Holy. Problem solved.

If you rolled a Pally to dps, then sorry to break it to you. You are not a Warrior with a blue rage bar.

[Elektrik]

If your utility is lower than a rogue, you will do more damage than them.

Oh wait, I forgot - WotLK comes out tomorrow, and everything you see now will go live.

[Aressolo]

If your utility is lower than a rogue, you will do more damage than them.

Oh wait, I forgot - WotLK comes out tomorrow, and everything you see now will go live.

I never played a rogue and a pally in Beta, so I can't say which DPS is higher. I based my thoughts on the old BC, where Ret pallies only in certain bosses fights had a place (Brutallus, that's an example), when Rogues were always accepted.

I Know that's Beta and there will be, maybe, some changes, I wrote that on my first post, l2read. I was only asking for thoughts.

[BlazerWithTheLazer]

Blizzard: "we want every class to be unique"
I loled when I saw the blues.

[ant1pathy]

Let put a situation to you.

You're a raid leader. You need to bring 1 more melee dps tonight. Your choices are a Rogue. High damage, usually escapes wipes and AFK's to make a sammich. Or a Ret Pally that provides an extra Blessing, LoH, BoP, DI's cutting down on wipe recovery time. If the Ret Pally was within, say, 5% dps of the Rogue, who would you take?

[neh0e]

2 percent damage increase to anyone effected by sanc auror, 3 percent hit rating? 3 percent crit. refreshes all judgements on the target, blessing of might kings and light?

and theyare now a mana bettery i dunno how good but they still are 1....

[Einzweidrei]

Let put a situation to you.

You're a raid leader. You need to bring 1 more melee dps tonight. Your choices are a Rogue. High damage, usually escapes wipes and AFK's to make a sammich. Or a Ret Pally that provides an extra Blessing, LoH, BoP, DI's cutting down on wipe recovery time. If the Ret Pally was within, say, 5% dps of the Rogue, who would you take?

Too bad ret pallies won't be doing 95% of the damage a rogue does.

[sainthubbins]

Then spec Prot or Holy. Problem solved.

If you rolled a Pally to dps, then sorry to break it to you. You are not a Warrior with a blue rage bar.

And Warriors aren't rogues in plate. I was under the assumption that they were supposed to be primarily a tanking class, and DPS was a secondary role for them. Also, I'm pretty sure that most paladins rolled one in order to be ret. Ret is what a paladin should be, a holy warrior going out and smiting his enemies. Not a guy standing there spamming heals. If anything, lorewise at least, holy should be the least viable paladin spec.

[ant1pathy]

Too bad ret pallies won't be doing 95% of the damage a rogue does.

Hi, I'm a hypothetical situation intended to drive home the point that if Retri pallys get buffed the way they're whining to be, then they will make every other melee dps obsolete. What's your name?

[ant1pathy]

And Warriors aren't rogues in plate. I was under the assumption that they were supposed to be primarily a tanking class, and DPS was a secondary role for them. Also, I'm pretty sure that most paladins rolled one in order to be ret. Ret is what a paladin should be, a holy warrior going out and smiting his enemies. Not a guy standing there spamming heals. If anything, lorewise at least, holy should be the least viable paladin spec.

Warriors shouldn't be as close to Rogues as they are now. That should change as well.

[STS]

Well it just comes down to "everyone can be replaced by someone, who knows how to play their class or is better geared". If your Retri doesn´t do well, take another rogue, cat, retpally, offwarri or even an oomkin without giving up a vital groupbuff. Same goes the other way around.

As a Raidlead/CA, you don´t have to replace a class 1:1 with the same class and spec anymore. Gives you much more flexibility, especially in 5- or 10-man groups where room is limited. No more "must have"-classes and specs anymore.

loll agreeed

you fail

[Aressolo]

Let put a situation to you.

You're a raid leader. You need to bring 1 more melee dps tonight. Your choices are a Rogue. High damage, usually escapes wipes and AFK's to make a sammich. Or a Ret Pally that provides an extra Blessing, LoH, BoP, DI's cutting down on wipe recovery time. If the Ret Pally was within, say, 5% dps of the Rogue, who would you take?

In that case everyone should take the Pally, surely because the raid maybe has already 2 or 3 other rogues. But ALL of us also know that to bring UTILITY your damage will be much lower than the damage of a charachter that comes to raid only to dps.

But in your, weird I must say, situation, I will bring the pally, that's for sure.

[ant1pathy]

In that case everyone should take the Pally, surely because the raid maybe has already 2 or 3 other rogues. But ALL of us also know that to bring UTILITY your damage will be much lower than the damage of a charachter that comes to raid only to dps.

But in your, weird I must say, situation, I will bring the pally, that's for sure.

The point I'm trying to make is what % behind Rogues do you feel is a fair place for Ret Pallys to be, in light of their other raid benefits? 5% too close perhaps, how about 10%? 15%? 20% Where do they measure up now?