Rogues replace Ret?

[Xucuroz]

The major problems as i'm seeing it is the fact that, basically no spec now brings anything unique (this goes for more than just Paladins - other classes are affected too, although i think it'll hurt Ret the most in the long run). Really i don't see the positive behind this. Blizzard want raids to be more accessible without requiring any one class or a certain spec but really, did anyone currently require 3% crit to target? No. It was a nice bonus you got when you took a ret paladin to the raid.

As people have already pointed out, 2 other classes now can do a Heart of the Crusader 3% crit. 3% Haste? Yep 1 balance Druid could do that. BoM? A fury Warrior could bring that. Mana battery? Shadow Priest, Survival Hunter will do this far better than we will. Most the classes that can do the same utility will not face the same problems as ret paladins will, higher dps, won't run out of mana 1-2 minutes into a fight. I'm hopeful that Blizzard will actually solve the mana regeneration but we'll have to wait on that one.

Depending on how each paladin specs, you are looking at probably 2 spaces in a 25 man raid for paladins, that my friends will probably be taken up by Holy and Protection because while they may bring nothing "really" unique to a raid, the spec is always desired by other players and healers/tanks are always in short supply. Blessing of Kings is probably one of the few things (again if specced) a ret paladin could bring to a raid.

The funny thing i find is, Rogues have high dps because of their lack of group utility. They are now getting that and no extra cost to their dps. Yet ret Paladins who are meant to bring a lot of utility to offset the lower dps is having almost all of its utility given/shared with other classes now. So utility classes are on the way out?

Enough QQ. First things first. I think the rogue/warriors are currently getting their pass by the dev team, as you can see they are having a lot of tweaks right now. Obviously, Blizzard has not got round to the Paladin but the communication from Blizzard could be better on what they intend to do to make life better for us. I personally wouldn't feel the need to speculate if i actually knew they had something in the works, other than just they are "aware of it". And yeah, i'm aware its beta but that doesn't mean we can't have concerns.

[Deleted]

i might believe the whole"keep bad players with good buffs out" saying if all the other classes had the same thing going on... I mean seriously lol a rogue has a better utillity buff than a class built around utillity, just saying that makes me wonder what crackwhore thought of that for blizz...

And unless you can come up with a post that means something with a valid statement then go away... I mean seriously when it gets to the point of you only being able to try and insult my skill when you never saw me play i know you are a bit immature and obviously have nothing to say that is relevant...

How was my post immature? Immature is an insult thrown around lately without any thought.

From your posts you seem to be the type of player who blames things on "luck" and I hate that, maybe I've read you wrong but I don't think so. When you say stuff like it's all about lucky crits and blowing all CDs to do respectable DPS when it's really not, it's about being a good player who knows what he's doing. It's like when people die on KJ by running into an Armageddon after a bomb, "oh it was just unlucky it spawned so close I couldn't help it", when they say this I think to myself "Well how comes I didn't die then?".

While I agree other classes having our buffs makes us less desirable it by no means makes us useless. Shine in other areas other then buffing and you'll keep your spot.

[Admuntour]

There are lots of things to take into consideration here.
Firstly the rogues that are top of the damage meters right now are Combat speced, we don't really know what Assassination spec is capable of in WoTLK, if assassination ends up doing lower DPS then combat then rogues will want to go combat and paladins will be left buffing the 3% crit, and its a win win situation too, but it all depends on assassination DPS.
Secondly Blizz said that they want to balance all classes and its still the beta, they haven't gotten to the paladins yet, since most classes now provide both utility on top of their DPS they should almost as much DPS in theory, and if Blizz does its job well it will be mostly like that.

[Requital]

Firstly, Rogues do not do 3x the DPS of an equally geared and skilled Ret Paladin. On KJ for example our Rogues will pull 3.1-3.4 DPS, I will pull 2.1-2.3, that is around 1k DPS difference. Now, if you add in JoW, a blessing, 2% dmg, 3% raid wide crit etc then you can see why a Paladin has a spot in the raid. I won't even go into the amount of slow people I've saved with a BoF.

Secondly, in Wrath all hybrids will feel the pinch but good players won't, I am pretty certain my spot isn't in jeopardy because I don't suck. Every guild has those players who carry the rest by never making mistakes, it doesn't matter what spec or class they play they will be in the raid. Only bad players should be scared of warming the bench.

Did you forget KJ takes 25% additional Damage? Compare a Rogue to Ret on Brutallus give them the same gear and the same raid setup with the same skill level. You don't keep up see on live we can Seal Twist and that is gone as well. You show me one WWS report of a Rogue and Retadin same gear level same skill within 2% Damage done I'll show you a fake report. I would go as far as to say 6% is a common finish in difference between Ret Damage done and Rogue Damage done. A lot of this is being blown out of porportion but a lot of it is not. Ret got some amazing buffs at the begining of beta but now that everything has been toned down here is what beta has offered us.

The ability to heal at a mediocre rate but better then we have had since Pre BC.

Everything else beta gave us is gone, In fact we are currently a stronger DPS class outside of beta then we are in beta here is the list of the effective nerfs.

Vengeance down 5%
Avenging Wrath down 10%
No JotC
Crusader Strike is an Instant Trash attack offers nothing

I'm not going to compare us to another class with a similar ability to Crusader Strike but if you hunt you will find it and see that Ret is more broken in beta now then we have been in a long time. Yes we have insane high burst and for that boss fight that requires high burst for 1 minute put me in coach. But for a sustained DPS fight I feel I'm going to be wearing a new type of plate.

[Tigercat]

So Rogues are gonna replace retri paladins. With the change to JotW, BattleShout=BoM, and this one I don't think Retri will have a slot in raids.

I know that is Beta and things could change, but we paladins know how Blizz work with us in Betas.

Your thoughts?

I think you just made yet another "OH NOES OTHER PEOPLES HAS MY BUFFS WAAAAAAAH" post, like people in every single class are doing.

As it stands right now, the single most desirable class/spec combo will actually be a paladin. A protadin, to be exact, due to how incredibly powerful sanctuary is. Until Blizzard gives that buff to another class, anyway, causing massive(and delicious) paladin QQing in the process.

[Wolluis]

The question some people must ask here in this thread is "What if a retri paladin outdamage a rogue in Raid" Should Rogues then be doing pvp only?

See here a lot of ignorent naive people posting on this thread.

[Wilhelmi]

How can you replace someone that hasn't been taken into the raid in the first place? 8)

[Cakes]

All these thoughts are based on "ideal conditions" mostly... And as we all know, "ideal conditions" does not exist. People "figthing" for raiding spots will not have equal equip and deffinitely not equal skill. There will be guilds where are no retadins in raid setups because of strong rogues/hunters/locks and guilds with even two retadins because they simply outperform their rogue guildies.

Secondly, this is beta. Assuming current situatuon, it can easily end up with retadins on par (or even better) with rogues and the rest of dps classes, which will make their raid presence completely justified.

[thethain]

Paladins have

Blessing of Wisdom, Kings, Sanctuary(which is godly ATM), Might
Hand of Freedom (cancels stun if ret), Salvation, Protection, Sacrifice
Retribution aura Aggro for tank, 3% casting/ranged/melee Speed, 2% all damage increased.
Judgments Provide 3% crit, Provide health or mana every time someone attacks the target. Provide "replenishment" every time it is judged for 10 people.
Dispel in case of emergency.
Heal in case of emergency.
DI wipe recovery.
Res wipe recovery.
Lay on Hands wipe prevention.

So of the 19 or so utilities listed, a rogue can do ONE of them. THESKYISFAILING.

[palasauce]

First post! (been looking a mmo-champion for a month now without saying anothing

I really doubt that the new buff stacking nerfs will take mean the end of our blessing of might. We can now improve our BoM with a glyph that converts a part of it into spell damage.

[Cowpies]

Let put a situation to you.

You're a raid leader. You need to bring 1 more melee dps tonight. Your choices are a Rogue. High damage, usually escapes wipes and AFK's to make a sammich. Or a Ret Pally that provides an extra Blessing, LoH, BoP, DI's cutting down on wipe recovery time. If the Ret Pally was within, say, 5% dps of the Rogue, who would you take?

What if the rogue can make me a sammich too? Then I vote rogue.

[Biral]

First post! (been looking a mmo-champion for a month now without saying anothing

I really doubt that the new buff stacking nerfs will take mean the end of our blessing of might. We can now improve our BoM with a glyph that converts a part of it into spell damage.

Which will be overridden by Disc Priests, Arcane Mages, Warlocks (self-only), and Shaman.

They took everything that we brought to the raid and gave it to other offspecs that wanted a piece of the pie. Good job for them doing that, but each of those other less-used offspecs now has more claim to be in raid than we do.

Hell, our most defining feature in BC, our 3% raid-wide crit, is now active on a totem... on all enemies within 30 yards. Yeah, that beats our one-target limit in the ground concerning trash.

Not to mention our invaluable 2% damage buff is overridden by any party with a BM Hunter in the group.

[Deleted]

Did you forget KJ takes 25% additional Damage? Compare a Rogue to Ret on Brutallus give them the same gear and the same raid setup with the same skill level. You don't keep up see on live we can Seal Twist and that is gone as well. You show me one WWS report of a Rogue and Retadin same gear level same skill within 2% Damage done I'll show you a fake report. I would go as far as to say 6% is a common finish in difference between Ret Damage done and Rogue Damage done. A lot of this is being blown out of porportion but a lot of it is not. Ret got some amazing buffs at the begining of beta but now that everything has been toned down here is what beta has offered us.

The ability to heal at a mediocre rate but better then we have had since Pre BC.

Everything else beta gave us is gone, In fact we are currently a stronger DPS class outside of beta then we are in beta here is the list of the effective nerfs.

Vengeance down 5%
Avenging Wrath down 10%
No JotC
Crusader Strike is an Instant Trash attack offers nothing

I'm not going to compare us to another class with a similar ability to Crusader Strike but if you hunt you will find it and see that Ret is more broken in beta now then we have been in a long time. Yes we have insane high burst and for that boss fight that requires high burst for 1 minute put me in coach. But for a sustained DPS fight I feel I'm going to be wearing a new type of plate.

I'm aware, probably wasn't the best example in hindsight but still I stand by Ret being able to do respectable DPS which earns them a spot without relying on luck like some people claim, there's allot of bad Ret Paladins in this game who really don't maximize their potential, and I'm not talking about Seal Twisting as that's just exploiting in my book, but that's a different show.

I'm currently playing the beta and I know we're not where we want to be atm but we've not even had our review yet and people have already thrown in the towel and ordered their coffins and that's just a poor attitude to take. When they took our beloved JoTW away I was the first to piss and moan but I got over it, we will not be left with replenish only, there's just no way Blizzard are that stupid. There's been plenty of ideas going around for the extra effect on Crusader Strike and I'm sure Blizzard will have something up their sleeve.

And about Rogue Vs Ret DPS I'm just not going to bother going into that, it's different guild to guild so it's a pointless discussion.

[Rawberry]

Lord have mercy...

People have always claimed that Rogues needed to be top melee DPS dealers because they had no utility avaiable to them, and would not be brought to a raid otherwise.

Well that was all good and well, but as of now this statement can be considered completly void. There is no reason anymore for Rogues to just naturally be top melee DPS dealers, and in turn this opens up room for other classes.


Just sit out the development or atleast the second Paladin pass, that should give us more insight on what might be unfolding.

[Funkatron]

Mana battery? Shadow Priest, Survival Hunter will do this far better than we will.

As an aside, I've now seen Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, AND Ret Pallies say that.

[Lady Vikai]

In my opinion.. Why have ret pallies? we are terrible hur hur hur!!!! In reality its because we still have utility. Yes BoM = BS, but glyped BoM now grants Spell Power! you can give might to mages and priests! also doubles as more SP for us of course! Kings is still unparalled, even with the HUGE jump Mark of the wild got. Now you can say your tank has this.. ok, thats fair. Heart of the crusader on rogues? nice! I am personally glad to see more group utility on rogues. Guess Rawberry and I will have more chances that second pally polish will come.. but wait.. we still got Judgement of Wisdom which since AP is always higher than SP, and Ret Pallies have higher overall than prot, means Our Wisdom will be higher than the tank so he will have light most likely. Mana battery that Priests/hunters can do requires hunters to spec retarded and priests.. well.. WE Can give them one less rotational CD to worry about. Thats pretty nice don't you think? In Short

Glyph BoM Rules for casters
Judgement Wisdom Ret>Prot
JotW while still retarded can save CD's for some classes.

Oh, since I forgot.. Repentence is a 1 minunte CC, not bad... an extra Hand of Salv ISN'T unwanted I hope and our Whirlwind DPS also heals a bit. Can you say VR?

[Lesane]

Lord have mercy...

People have always claimed that Rogues needed to be top melee DPS dealers because they had no utility avaiable to them, and would not be brought to a raid otherwise.

Well that was all good and well, but as of now this statement can be considered completly void. There is no reason anymore for Rogues to just naturally be top melee DPS dealers, and in turn this opens up room for other classes.


Just sit out the development or atleast the second Paladin pass, that should give us more insight on what might be unfolding.

The rogue 3% crit talent is deep into the assassination tree which has never been the DPS topping tree anyway. Previously that talent tree was completely useless for PVE because of that, now with some extra utility it might be worthwile if you don't have a ret paladin.

Combat received Blood Frenzy (although in it's nerfed state) basically, so while rogues do have some utility now I seriously doubt Blizzard intends them to no longer be top DPS if specced for max DPS (combat).

[Rawberry]

The rogue 3% crit talent is deep into the assassination tree which has never been the DPS topping tree anyway. Previously that talent tree was completely useless for PVE because of that, now with some extra utility it might be worthwile if you don't have a ret paladin.

Combat received Blood Frenzy (although in it's nerfed state) basically, so while rogues do have some utility now I seriously doubt Blizzard intends them to no longer be top DPS if specced for max DPS (combat).

Thanks for the information Lesane, I had no idea on the current state of the Assassination tree exepect the fact that I've heared some Rogues mumble it had gotten a significant damage buff.

[HolySdrJR]

All of the raid buffs every class is getting is duplicated by another class.

None of them get "over written" they are just duplicated so you don't NEED a ret pally to get that buff, or a shadow priest to get this buff...

The reason our JotW got nerfed was so that it is exactly the same as the hunter/spriest.

Lets go over the buffs...

Attack power: Warrior and Paladin.
3% Haste: Druid and Paladin.
2% Damage: Hunter and Paladin.
3% Crit: Rogue, Shaman and Paladin.
Mob decreased attack speed: DK, Warrior, Druid and Paladin.
Damage reduction: Priest and Paladin.
Increased healing: Druid and Paladin.
Mana regen: Hunter, Priest and Paladin.

The only buffs that aren't duplicated right now are Kings and MotW - IMO these may very well be equalized together soon - and Fort, which remains the only stamina only buff.

I only listed the pally buffs people are crying about, but you can look up any buff that one class has, and find there is (or soon will be) another class with some spec providing that buff. The key word there is spec. Not every spec will have these buffs, so each person can pick and choose, but Blizzard is basically saying

When we create a raid encounter, we are figuring that the players will have ALL of these buffs, from one class or another, so we are tuning the boss accordingly.

Basically - STFU and play. Earn your spot, and you will raid. Paladins are not going to be sitting back dispelling and buffing anymore in raids. You aren't going to come just because you have something the raid needs. If a prot pally has HotC, then you don't NEED a ret pally OR ass rogue OR whatever shammy drops the totem of wrath... Then it comes down to who does the raid leader like more, so STFU and play. Earn your spot, or go home.

EDIT: I forgot... If a buff does more than one thing, the weakest part of it WILL be over written by a stronger buff that another class provides. I haven't seen a heck of a lot of buffs that were stronger here or there though (especially with paladins - it seems they're all the SAME EXACT BUFF ANOTHER CLASS HAS). But that's the only way your buff wouldn't apply - if the ass rogue suddenly got +3.5% crit chance, then you can complain...

[Lady Vikai]

Don't forget, we are one of the few that still have unique buffs. I severly doubt Mark = Kings in ANY expansion. If it does.. bah. But as I posted above, we still have buffs no classes have.