Raid DPS Rankings?

[Baever]

You seem to forget...they have never tried before

Uhh, yeah they did.

Where you not here for most of TBC?

[Baever]

actually you are wrong...the game is all just numbers and the devs are perfectly capable of making output numbers equal to each other.


yes it is old, if by old you mean two weeks. they asked for raid dps and i posted. if you have anything thats from wotlk live that comes out in 2 months go ahead an post it. oh wait you dont? then stay quiet, you arent clever

Actually, no I'm not.

If you balance out PvE, you offset PvP balance, and vise versa.

This is why there will never be balance.

[Badeggplant]

Uhh, yeah they did.

Where you not here for most of TBC?

You apparently weren't...in TBC Blizzard's goal for all specs was "viability" not "competitive dps", and to an extent they did achieve that goal with most specs being viable at least in either PVP or raiding, if not both.

They never stated or implied in any way that a hybrid's DPS in TBC should be or could be equal to pure classes. They never said "We think moonkins should be doing about the same damage as destruction warlocks", and it wasn't a design flaw or shoddy math on their part that created this disparity. It was the fact that our DPS was engineered to be lower because we brought buffs to the table that the pure classes couldn't replicate. In WotLK they are increasing the DPS of hybrids at the same time that they are giving pure classes more utility to compensate. Pretty simple concept.

[Amgyn]

1. rogue and mage - most dps, least group utility (no conjured items dont count)
2. hunter and warlock - 2nd most dps, a little more group util.. pet class
3. dps warrior, feral druid, Dk - 3rd most dps, able to do multiple roles (tank/dps) with same spec + minor gear change
4. dps shaman, ret paladin, boomkin and shadow priest- 4th most dps lots of group utility, able to do multiple roles (heal/dps/tank).. this category of class is hardest to please
5. tanks
6. healers

[Baever]

you are still missing the point...ill just stop now

No, I'm right on the money, sir.

All of TBC it was a tedious battle between balancing out PvP, then re-balancing the offset that the balance to PvP caused to PvE.

If they focus on PvE, eventually they will be forced to re-evaluate PvP, and throw it all off again.

It's logic, not me being ignorant to your reply. I'd like to see balance, but it's just not possible with both systems constantly conflicting with each other.

[cyrnix]

I usually just like to read these forums, but felt intriqued to post after reading this particular one.
What i've found in my years of raiding is that there is know way to say one class is better at the top of the charts than another. (I realize the OP wanted this to be about who would you like to see at the top of the charts, but the discussion has evolved). In a straight-up dps fight the % between straight dps classes should be within 10% of eachother. The problem with saying one class should always be on top is that (and this has been stated) there are different aspects to every fight. For example on a fight where melee has to get out of range for some stomp or WW or w/e, casters will generally reign supreme in dps. In encounters were there is a lot of movement in the back where casters have to stand, you can count on melee generally being at the top.
Truth be told anyone who has good enough gear and plays their class and that class' repective dps spec can be at the top. Hope this was helpful.

[Munk]

go back and read...i said precisely the opposite


you do not pass go you do not collect 200$

Bah, im sorry menin I got a few different posts mixed up. I thought you were one of the people saying blizzard tried to balance BC and failed miserably at their design. My bad, im sorry.

That said If retadins are doing 3k+ in nax 25 man I certainly do believe they can do 5k by the end of Wrath raiding and not only will they do ~5k but they will keep pace with warlocks on any fight that isnt a clear cut anti-melee fight.

[Xzander37]

Best thing for blizzard to do if they are going to make the difference in dps so small is to make those that spec for dps not able to cast any heals. There is more then just raiding to this game, and before you start in I do think a well geared speced dps class should do better then a green geared pure dps. With that in mind their has to be something of a balance.

In pve raiding you have a choice between a balanced druid and a fire mage, if both do about the same dps and both brang a form of cc it comes down to heals. With the changes from damage/healing to spell power the balance druid can spot heal a lot better in the coming expansion. No they will not be the main healer or even the ot healer but they do have a choice to throw in self heals and maybe spot heals for those in need, the 4 pure dps do not offer this thus needing a greater dps gap.

In pvp it comes down to healing again. If atm mage dose 30% more then the druid he might kill him even if the druid gets a few heals in. if the damage is the same and the druid can heal, whos going to win? the Druid everytime.

Its still beta and numbers and ideas can change. Blizzard my reverse course and not do this at all.

[Baever]

You apparently weren't...in TBC Blizzard's goal for all specs was "viability" not "competitive dps", and to an extent they did achieve that goal with most specs being viable at least in either PVP or raiding, if not both.

They never stated or implied in any way that a hybrid's DPS in TBC should be or could be equal to pure classes. They never said "We think moonkins should be doing about the same damage as destruction warlocks", and it wasn't a design flaw or shoddy math on their part that created this disparity. It was the fact that our DPS was engineered to be lower because we brought buffs to the table that the pure classes couldn't replicate. In WotLK they are increasing the DPS of hybrids at the same time that they are giving pure classes more utility to compensate. Pretty simple concept.

Competitive DPS is viability.

Yes, they changed how raid buffs and utility works, but that point is moot.

Viability is just derived a different way now, and as I said before, as long as PvP and PvE BOTH need to be balanced, there will never be a middle ground, as someone will always out-dps the last in line by a large margin.

[Lilscrappy]

I don't necessarily agree with Blizzard how ALL dps specs should be the same, it makes the classes less unique from what they bring to the table, but that's my opinion, anyways it should be...

1. Rogue
2. Mage/Warlock
3. Hunter/DK DPS
4. All the hybrids here, (hybrids should not be able to go DPS and beat a class like the ones above and still get to be healers and tanks/casters/melee dps)
5. Tanks

[Lilscrappy]

Bah, im sorry menin I got a few different posts mixed up. I thought you were one of the people saying blizzard tried to balance BC and failed miserably at their design. My bad, im sorry.

That said If retadins are doing 3k+ in nax 25 man I certainly do believe they can do 5k by the end of Wrath raiding and not only will they do ~5k but they will keep pace with warlocks on any fight that isnt a clear cut anti-melee fight.

Ok I had to post this, Munk has 3 paladins, what in #&%$& are you thinking dude? Have you heard of talent changes? I sure hope you bought or were given one.... its called "selling accounts" BTW. PROFIT.

[Munk]

thanks, but keep in mind the warlock isnt geared up either.

That maybe so but its quite a bit easier to make small changes to the already successful retadin design and see exponential growth in their dps. With warlocks like caster classes dps growth is far more consistent. Tiny dps increases with evey new spell power increase. Something as simple as changing 2h weapon dmg from 3% back to 6% could make a huge difference. They could retune judgements, add an additional effect to cs etc. If indeed ret pally's arent panning out, it wont take but one SMALL update to make all the difference.

[Badeggplant]

Best thing for blizzard to do if they are going to make the difference in dps so small is to make those that spec for dps not able to cast any heals. There is more then just raiding to this game, and before you start in I do think a well geared speced dps class should do better then a green geared pure dps. With that in mind their has to be something of a balance.

In pve raiding you have a choice between a balanced druid and a fire mage, if both do about the same dps and both brang a form of cc it comes down to heals. With the changes from damage/healing to spell power the balance druid can spot heal a lot better in the coming expansion. No they will not be the main healer or even the ot healer but they do have a choice to throw in self heals and maybe spot heals for those in need, the 4 pure dps do not offer this thus needing a greater dps gap.

1. Hybrids are not the only ones with utility.
2. Off healing is not the only utility, nor is it the most important, in fact I would argue it is not an important utility at all and is barely a factor if at all in determining who gets invites
3. Many hybrid dps classes already have some kind of major penalty for trying to heal in a raid so counting their healing utility against their dps is not fair (see shadowform, moonkin form).
4. Hybrid heals are also not strong enough or mana efficient enough to be effective in a raid environment
5. Pure classes are not put at a disadvantage in PvP simply because they cannot heal themselves. See that a moonkin, ele shaman or shadow priest that tries to heal through heavy damage in PvP most likely gets killed. Furthermore, warlocks have some of the strongest self-heals in PvP yet nobody is saying they shouldn't be at the top of damage meters. And a hybrid who tries to heal more than just a little bit only runs himself OOM.
6. The amount that self-heals help in PvE only barely goes beyond having a healthstone/health pot/bandage, if you are taking heavy damage then once again your self-heals will not save you.

[Munk]

HYBRIDS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH UTILITY
OFF HEALING IS NOT THE ONLY OR MOST IMPORTANT OR EVEN AN IMPORTANT FORM OF UTILITY
THE ABILITY TO HEAL DOES NOT JUSTIFY A DPS NERF, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT

You only had to say it once, but the caps really make your point. /cherio

[Baever]

HYBRIDS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH UTILITY
OFF HEALING IS NOT THE ONLY OR MOST IMPORTANT OR EVEN AN IMPORTANT FORM OF UTILITY
THE ABILITY TO HEAL DOES NOT JUSTIFY A DPS NERF, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT

Because pure DPS classes were fed the same lame excuse as to why hybrids should provide relative DPS - "Why should we have to reroll just to be competative?"

So we give you this:

Why should we have to reroll to heal/tank?

[Xzander37]

HYBRIDS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH UTILITY
OFF HEALING IS NOT THE ONLY OR MOST IMPORTANT OR EVEN AN IMPORTANT FORM OF UTILITY
THE ABILITY TO HEAL DOES NOT JUSTIFY A DPS NERF, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT

No its not the only utility, but it is one that the 4 pures (hunter,lock,rogue,mage) can't do. So whats so wrong with having your heals locked out if you chose a dps spec?

[Munk]

No its not the only utility, but it is one that the 4 pures (hunter,lock,rogue,mage) can't do. So whats so wrong with having your heals locked out if you chose a dps spec?

Absolutely nothing if that means If they restore ret to the initial beta state IE op as hell.

[Xzander37]

Absolutely nothing if that means If they restore ret to the initial beta state IE op as hell.

No but a ret will do same damage as a rogue,hunter,lock,mage.

[Badeggplant]

No its not the only utility, but it is one that the 4 pures (hunter,lock,rogue,mage) can't do. So whats so wrong with having your heals locked out if you chose a dps spec?

Incidental utility is still incidental. The fact that these 4 classes cannot heal, and those 4 classes can, is not ever actually used as a reason to bring someone into a raid or not. Shadow priests and boomkins don't get invited to raids because they can heal, they get invited because of their dps and support buffs.

The tradeoff? We get off heals, you get a larger variety of DPS abilities to better adapt to the particular environment. Both are helpful. It's fair either way, no reason you need scaling for one to be intrinsically better or worse than the other.

[Baever]

Incidental utility is still incidental. The fact that these 4 classes cannot heal, and those 4 classes can, is not ever actually used as a reason to bring someone into a raid or not. Shadow priests and boomkins don't get invited to raids because they can heal, they get invited because of their dps and support buffs.

The tradeoff? We get off heals, you get a larger variety of DPS abilities to better adapt to the particular environment. Both are helpful. It's fair either way, no reason you need scaling for one to be intrinsically better or worse than the other.

Mage:

Fire - Scorch and Fireball, and OMG Pyroblast come Wrath.
Frost - Frostbolt and Water Elemental
Arcane - N/A

Warlock:

Affliction - DOTZ and SHADOWZBOLTZ
Demon - DOTZ and SHADOWBOLTZ AND PETZ
Destruction - ELEMENTS AND INCINERATEZ

Rogue:

Assassination - MUTILATE, SLICE THEM DICE RUPTURE
Combat - SINSPAM, SLICE THEM DICE RUPTURE
Sub - HEMO/BACKSTAB, SLICE THEM DICE RUPTURE

Hunter:

BM - AUTO SHOT AND PET
Marks - AUTO SHOT AND PET
Survival - RAPTOR STRIKE, PETZ R OVER-RATED

Oh yeah, tons more options, but you forget.

Unlike a hybrid, only one spec is optimal, compared to a minimum of two for warriors, shamans, priests and DK, in which most cases, the off spec is for PVP anyways.