so what do prot paladins want?* lol

[cooms]

I play a warrior and im sure some of you hate me or think i am ignorant (im not being sarcastic writing this). I am simply looking for info. But anyway i was just wondering what things pallys want besides unbloating their tree (which i totally agree on). I just want to see this on the paladin section. I'd like to see what pallys are wanting. it gets rather confusing seeing so many suggestions and things on the warrior section all mixed in. I hope you guys get some love next time bliz makes a swipe through like the did on warrior. If there is a section like this for prot pallys and i missed it sorry and feel free to redirect me. I realize all your trees and a lot of your skills need refining and help.

[Deleted]

I am quite excited about the new abilities prot paladins get. I play two paladins, holy and prot, not a single retridin now or ever.

But so, pulling things out of my hat I still can't really think of anything special we NEED, just that the talent tree is cleaned up and made less bloated. At the moment it is just full of stuff we need even for doing good in pve, we simply don't have enough points to get the pve talents. Not to mention throwing in even a single pvp talent. And I wonder if the 5% parry is in the right place in retridin tree. Most of the retridins I've seen around don't take it anyway.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Only thing we really need/want is some spell damage mitigation, since we currently have the least. The rest is awesome.

[Guran]

Actually feral druids have the least amount of spell damage mitigation, although they're getting a flat dmg reduction instead of extra armor in WLK.

PErsonally, I would like to see Reckoning made more useful (and more importantly, not scaling down with gear), as well as making the lower tiers a bit more attractive, especially for other specs.

[Deleted]

Actually feral druids have the least amount of spell damage mitigation

Then again, they have several times more HP than us with similar gear. Druids make very good single-target tanks as they are, paladins are very successful at aoe tanking.

Still, I agree, a bit more spell damage mitigation wouldn't hurt. Quite vice versa, indeed :P Maybe change Spell Warding talent to reduce spell damage by 4%/8%? This way it would be a lot more interesting without becoming OP. Prot paladins fare poorly in PvP anyway so it won't really make difference there.

[Zarcob]

There really isn't anything major to complain about, especially that they've finally fixed sanctuary, making it into something worthwhile. I think a little more pure mitigation would be useful, especially towards spells, but only in the 2% range or so. Least spell mitigation and no spell reflect in wrath is going to be stupidly painful for a lot of bosses.

I wish Seals of Light and Wisdom were more practical to use in combat but I haven't tested their latest incarnations. The tree could still use some trimming and reorganizing. Reckoning isn't worth 5 points and it's fun to use so it's a shame never getting to play around with it. I don't know what their obsession with redoubt is, but that's not terribly important either. I don't think righteous fury, or especially holy shield, should be dispellable. Unless holy shield is also going to absorb magic damage, having it so susceptible to dispel is stupid. And not just for pvp either, bosses like in heroic CoT can dispel and it places a ridiculous burden on paladin tanks.

Oh, and I don't really like Touched by the Light's increase to crit heal amount. Although it's fantastic for off-healing in heal gear, it's virtually useless in prot gear because there's no crit. I'd rather they modified it so it increased heal by a flat percentage. I also think Divine Guardian could use some tweaking so it's actually useful for the tank and not just holy and ret paladins that want to spec into prot. But all of these are minor.


The only real possibility for major complaints are 1) Threat scaling. Threat scaled at end-game even more poorly than warriors in BC. It's impossible to know about this at the moment though. It was very easy to hit high threat with mediocre gear at the entry raid level, but it didn't really increase beyond that without huge avoidance and hp sacrifices.

2) Hammer of the Righteous viability. It's a neat tool and it's great that it gives paladins the option to use non-spell damage weapons in some scenarios, but other than Shield of Righteousness it's the only threat ability that scales very well without spell damage. If it accomplishes its goal, then it's a greatly welcomed increase in versatile itemization. But if it turns out to be less useful than simply using the old spell damage weapons and spamming consecrate then the final talent in the prot tree will probably end up going unused. That would be a big letdown towards what they're trying to accomplish and kill one of the key abilities meant to make prot pally tanking "less dull."

[Maenetus]

Actually feral druids have the least amount of spell damage mitigation, although they're getting a flat dmg reduction instead of extra armor in WLK.

PErsonally, I would like to see Reckoning made more useful (and more importantly, not scaling down with gear), as well as making the lower tiers a bit more attractive, especially for other specs.

The switch to Str gear and the availability of slow weapons will help reckoning a low

though I fear they'll try to make us share weapons with prot warriors (bleh 1.5 speed)

[Maenetus]

I don't know what their obsession with redoubt is, but that's not terribly important either.

it's great for AOE tanking when HS goes down

Oh, and I don't really like Touched by the Light's increase to crit heal amount.

the talent is fantastic for the stam -> sp the healing is just a bonus

1) Threat scaling.

??? TBC paladin threat scaling was much better than warrior threat scaling, and with the change to +hit it'll just be better in WotLK

When warriors reached the hit and expertise caps, they where done. We continued to scale with spell damage.

2) Hammer of the Righteous viability.

yeah 0/48/23 is looking better than 0/59/12

[Maenetus]

i was just wondering what things pallys want besides unbloating their tree (which i totally agree on).

honestly we're looking really good tanking wise.

I'd like to see better tools for when we're not tanking.
prot pally PvP is... even worse than prot warrior PvP and with the buffs to prot warrior PvP....

it's even worse when you look at prot paladin DPS. sure we can off heal, but we only have one talent that helps our healing (which is an improvement to be sure, currently a prot paladin heals like a 0/0/0) I would much rather see them make our DPS viable. We have a lot of talents that help our DPS but since it's all tuned to +threat our DPS is crap.

(actually I find it really funny that our healing is actually crappier than our dps but raid leaders still make us heal)

[Zarcob]

it's great for AOE tanking when HS goes down

"Great" would be always having 30%, or even 20, extra chance to block. Either way there isn't any real reason to keep tethering it to shield spec. But I digress, I think the difference is hardly worth expending the brain cells to consider - hence why I said it wasn't a major problem.

the talent is fantastic for the stam -> sp the healing is just a bonus

I didn't say the talent isn't fantastic, it's just disappointing to get something so deep in the prot tree that provides two benefits - one of which has absolutely no bearing on tanking, or for that matter, even provides much benefit in tank gear.

Compared to its counterpart Sheath of Light, which will provide extra healing through the shared melee / spell crit Retribution paladins collect, and Touched by the Light pales in comparison.

??? TBC paladin threat scaling was much better than warrior threat scaling, and with the change to +hit it'll just be better in WotLK

When warriors reached the hit and expertise caps, they where done. We continued to scale with spell damage.

That "expertise cap" afforded warriors way higher max threat than paladins. Yes, spell damage scales indefinitely, but it scales so god awfully slow it doesn't really matter. The only advantage it afforded was stacking huge amounts of spell damage for threat that came closer to warriors at the expertise cap, with tons of block and in a stacked group. However, that often meant gemming for pure spell damage and taking huge avoidance hits in gear.

Which begins to touch on how dependent paladin threat was on the mob's attack speed. Swift hitting mobs put the threat through the roof, mobs that relied on spell casting put it into the floor. That created a massive loophole for threat gen that had virtually nothing to do with the paladin's skill. Sprinkle on top the limited prot pally tanking items tailored for threat and there are a lot of glass ceilings paladins couldn't pass (1.8k+ warrior tps on sunwell guardians is an example).

yeah 0/48/23 is looking better than 0/59/12

That worries me the most. I would really hate to buy wrath and find the "top" prot pally talent unwanted by paladins everywhere. Huge letdown.

[Varithorn1]

That worries me the most. I would really hate to buy wrath and find the "top" prot pally talent unwanted by paladins everywhere. Huge letdown.

Like the endless rage or shadowfury of BC?

[Kaylus]

Actually feral druids have the least amount of spell damage mitigation, although they're getting a flat dmg reduction instead of extra armor in WLK.

PErsonally, I would like to see Reckoning made more useful (and more importantly, not scaling down with gear), as well as making the lower tiers a bit more attractive, especially for other specs.

Actually Feral has more spell mitigation then us. The new Mother bear talent gives them 12% mitigation to EVERYTHING when in a group of 5 or more. Paladins on the otherhand have 10% spell mitigation.

I am looking forward to our class build patch soon cause currently I am a bit worried.

mitigation
Druid = 12% spell & melee(3 talent points), not to mention uncrittable from talents alone which I agree with.. def on leather = dumb
Warrior = 10% melee(base) & 16% spell(2 talent points)
Paladin = 6% melee(3 talent points) & 10% spell(2 talent points)

didnt add deathknight cause its too hard to say what they have without list each tree.

[Zarcob]

Like the endless rage or shadowfury of BC?

Exactly like that.

I'm not a huge fan of hybrid builds. I don't mind them if somebody is filling an odd role, but every arena warlock going sl / sl because both pure demo and afflic trees sucked more, or every MS warrior opting for Flurry instead, was just stupid. Passing up the 51 point talent should not be the defacto norm, ugh.

[Maenetus]

Compared to its counterpart Sheath of Light, which will provide extra healing through the shared melee / spell crit Retribution paladins collect, and Touched by the Light pales in comparison.

who heals in tank gear?
if you're tanking a fight, you're too busy tanking the fight to heal.

and besides the better gear synergy the two talents are almost identical
primary stat -> sd + bonus to crit heals

mitigation
Druid = 12% spell & melee(3 talent points), not to mention uncrittable from talents alone which I agree with.. def on leather = dumb
Warrior = 10% melee(base) & 16% spell(2 talent points)
Paladin = 6% melee(3 talent points) & 10% spell(2 talent points)

not a factor for raids since all the tanks will have it but for 5 mans BoSanc nets us 3% more

[meathammered]

LOL I had to join just to add my wishlist of stuff

paladins should have a way to activate redoubt when they need it, put it on a cooldown or something

streamline ALL the trees, get Deflection out of the ret tree for one, give us a better block rating with holy shield up.

add a seal timer to the ui so I dont have to rely on X-perl to do it (I am always watching those SoV ticks hoping it lands for #5 so I can judge it)

Would it hurt to have a single target ranged pull? avengers shield is all fine and good until you pull some adds and wipe.

Gotta love seal of wisdom and seal of light, in a pinch they can help you survive in a bad pve situation, they should make seal of light scale to a percentage of your bonus healing (pipedream I guess) to make it more usable in a instance or raid setting.

We NEED MORE spelldamage resist!

and maybe just maybe can we get a way to offload a bunch of threat in a pinch, put it on a 2 hour timer for all I care, I am tired of having an over zealous lock or mage out tps me when I got to pull because they timed their fire/shadow/frost/whatever the hell else they choose to use.

ease the proccess of becoming uncrushable

stop making the tier gear look like power rangers outfits! we are supposed to be keepers of the light, not some glowing weirdo that happens to be your tank...


every class has some issues that need to be worked out, be it a squishy to a plate wearing tanking machine, blizz throw us a bone please?

and no more Mr T wow commercials!

seriously...

I am off to study the wrath trees and try and figure out my next plans as far as gear goes

-meathammered (my gear sucks if you look me up on the armory )

[Maenetus]

paladins should have a way to activate redoubt when they need it, put it on a cooldown or something

it's called holy shield, it's 30% block on a cooldown

streamline ALL the trees, get Deflection out of the ret tree for one, give us a better block rating with holy shield up.

warrior's deflection is in arms, and check the new paladin tanking set from nax, they're giving us plenty of block rating, besides crushes are gone so 102.4% isn't mandatory

Would it hurt to have a single target ranged pull? avengers shield is all fine and good until you pull some adds and wipe.

they gave is a single target ranged pull. It's called avenger's shield. Check the glyph.

Gotta love seal of wisdom and seal of light, in a pinch they can help you survive in a bad pve situation, they should make seal of light scale to a percentage of your bonus healing (pipedream I guess) to make it more usable in a instance or raid setting.

Fills the Paladin with divine light for 2 min, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin for [ 28% of AP + 28% of Spell Power ]

and maybe just maybe can we get a way to offload a bunch of threat in a pinch, put it on a 2 hour timer for all I care, I am tired of having an over zealous lock or mage out tps me when I got to pull because they timed their fire/shadow/frost/whatever the hell else they choose to use.

it's called RD. failing that BoP

ease the proccess of becoming uncrushable

crushes are gone.

[Zarcob]

who heals in tank gear?
if you're tanking a fight, you're too busy tanking the fight to heal.

But see you're missing the entire point. There is no synergy with paladin heals. Paladin healing can't be used while doing anything else, be it tanking, moving, attacking, or belching the alphabet, because they're limited and cumbersome. It's the same problem for Holy in the arena.

Sheath of Light attempts to bridge this gap. It creates a HoT which can be active while the ret paladin does something else. They still have to cast the spell, but now they'll have additional healing while they can continue attacking. And it does all this using a stat ret paladins will have in abundance: critical strike rating.

Touched by the Light does not. It maintains the same ungainly paladin healing difficulties and just as you point out, can't really be used while tanking. On top of which, its effectiveness can't be maximized in tank gear and requires collecting a separate set.

This difference is minor nonetheless. I have no shortages of sets either, so it doesn't matter to me personally one way or the other. I was simply trying to point out something that's not quiet as effective as it could be. I don't really care enough about it to even come up with a suggestion on a change, frankly. This is just mindless chatting about talents and abilities in prot that could still be tweaked. I can't really think of anything major they need to focus on otherwise.

[Maenetus]

This is just mindless chatting about talents and abilities in prot that could still be tweaked.

yep, though it does point towards one of the gaping flaws. Prot PvP

[Varithorn1]

Spec ret. All 30 specs won't be amazing for PvP...

[Maenetus]

Spec ret. All 30 specs won't be amazing for PvP...

I'm not asking for amazing, just not completely worthless. Check out how much prot warrior PvP is getting buffed