AP Scaling Poisons! Look here!

[Prandur]

Kizami, check some of the beta parses.
Notice how sunwell+ geared rogues are doing less damage than that due to no drum rotations,
swapping shammies, buff/debuff homogenization, etc.

Unless they're specced bugged poisons, which will never make it live.
So, yeah, that post was kinda...not needed at all.

As for me testing poisons, build vs build etc, no, I haven't.
Not in the beta.
I do however, have the ability to look at people's parses from raids, 5 mans and the test dummies.
If you can't find any, there's this thing, it's called "Google".
Try it, it's pretty sweet.

With that, you'll find people consistently outdamaging combat with mutilate using wound poison on both daggers, or wound/dp, specifically to get a clearer picture of what's going on.

And my point still stands.
Even if they lower poison application chance to ~50% talented, and it does the damage it does now, and it keeps all the multipliers from assassination, combat/sub does not have the damage either from white damage (sub's got 6xx armor pen, combat's got 20% crit damage, assassination's got 9% white damage increase flat) or from CP builders (16% extra damage on SS from combat, 20% additional yellow crit damage, assassination gets 18% flat yellow damage increase) and while combat will still be running something like 3s/5r with maybe 70-80% rupture uptime, assassination will be running 1s,4+r/4+envenom, with better rupture uptime on top of the extra 4-5 point finisher, not to mention both finishers in the cycle gets the same flat 18% damage increase.

If you can't see that that's kind of slanted towards mutilate, I don't know what to say.

Of course, I'm going to spec it myself, but I don't have to like it, just like I wasn't exactly ecstatic about being combat daggers in 40 man raids up until the glancing change.

[Prandur]

Are you high ?

Why would you give some threat to a hunter (even if he can dump it with FD) when you can give it to the tank to help his threat generation ?? You should use this ability on the tank every cooldown !! And you should use it at the 1st second of the fight so that the tank's threat will skyrocket in the first seconds and everybody can start DPS asap (Patchwerk somebody ? :-).

Saying a rogue should use TotT on a hunter because he can FD is like saying a hunter should misdirect on a mage because he can dump aggro ?? WTF ?

Notice where I said "IF THE TANK IS GENERATING ENOUGH THREAT TO NOT CAP THE OTHER DPS"?
Probably not.
I'll say it again then.
If I don't need to use it on the tank, which, from the looks of things right now I won't, at least not every CD, using it on a hunter is a much better choice than raising the threat ceiling further, or using it, like I see a lot of people suggesting, on a rogue.

Lashing out and calling people names is fun, but it works better if you actually read the shit you're responding to.

[Bonkbonk100]

"Rerolls easy mode class"

[Ion]

With that, you'll find people consistently outdamaging combat with mutilate using wound poison on both daggers, or wound/dp, specifically to get a clearer picture of what's going on.

You're full of shit. You're telling me that with Wound poison on (which only gains 42%, not 62%, infectious wounds does not apply to it) that the damage is higher than a combat rogue with Prey to the weak + Lethality and Maces? Or Maces + Serrated Edge? Whichever does more DPS? I'm calling huge BS on that. And I want "YOU" to show me since you've seen this, you can locate it and post it here. Then I'll buy this.

And my point still stands.
Even if they lower poison application chance to ~50% talented, and it does the damage it does now, and it keeps all the multipliers from assassination, combat/sub does not have the damage either from white damage (sub's got 6xx armor pen, combat's got 20% crit damage, assassination's got 9% white damage increase flat) or from CP builders (16% extra damage on SS from combat, 20% additional yellow crit damage, assassination gets 18% flat yellow damage increase) and while combat will still be running something like 3s/5r with maybe 70-80% rupture uptime, assassination will be running 1s,4+r/4+envenom, with better rupture uptime on top of the extra 4-5 point finisher, not to mention both finishers in the cycle gets the same flat 18% damage increase.

You DO know (Which I've said this before, and you don't seem to understand) that Assassination is in the process (and still is) of a massive makeover? There's even blue posts asking feedback about it in the beta forums. And most people say it's fine outside the poison bug. There are complaints that combat and sub are a bit low, but you know what? It's beta, they havent really even begun operation facelift (Sort of on Combat) yet. Lightning Reflexes still needs to be retuned, Murder Spree is getting Retuned, a lot is going to happen, keep your pants on.

All Combat needs is some fixing, Lightning reflexes must be damage oriented when it's fixed, and 1 or 2 talents need moved. Sub, is actually doing pretty awesome from what I hear from my beta-friends. It performs very competitive DPS.

[Ektoplasme]

Notice where I said "IF THE TANK IS GENERATING ENOUGH THREAT TO NOT CAP THE OTHER DPS"?
Probably not.
I'll say it again then.
If I don't need to use it on the tank, which, from the looks of things right now I won't, at least not every CD, using it on a hunter is a much better choice than raising the threat ceiling further, or using it, like I see a lot of people suggesting, on a rogue.

Lashing out and calling people names is fun, but it works better if you actually read the shit you're responding to.

Ok sorry for the confusion, I thought that this ability would increase the caster's damage (the rogue) by 15% for 6s an transfer the threat to the target. Actually the target receives the 15% buff....

So basically you use this ability once at the beginning of the fight on the tank. Then in a non-threat sensitive fight, you can use it on everycooldown on the highest DPS (not necessarily an aggro dumper if the fight is really non-threat sensitive). And a hunter seems to be a pretty good choice you're right

[arenascrub]

We've been laughed for so long mr. autoattack bot for so many years. We've fecked our eyes so badly in MH trying to find a "back" to mutilate in this frenzy of mobs and shader effects while you were just pressing BF and spamming SS. Yet you come here and whine about DPS imbalances, I didn’t see you on the side of mutilate or sub rogues when combat was easily 1-3% above them in TBC.

Your time mr. bot is over, all rogue trees get easy access to the so precious DW talent. If blizz manages to deliver the whole equal trees thing, the only people that need to be afraid are the bad rogues and you know that the majority of combat rogues are actually bad players. They could hide under the comfort of reaching 90% of overall damage just by using S&D and spamming SS (tough work I know) but now easy mode is out hence the QQing... You will have some serious competition from the other trees in WoTLK get used to it mr. bot and start practising.

[zushiba]

The current poison scale is off the wall, I fully expect it to be nerfed terribly next push. Poison application aside the damage a single application does is still retardedly high.

[Wildhorn]

Why people say it is 62%? % are not additive, they are multiplicative.

1*1.2*1.2*1.09*1.09*1.04=1.779xxxx so it is 78%

[zushiba]

weren't all percentage based buffs at some point changed to be additive instead of multiplicative?

EDIT: Nevermind that was patch 1.12.0's change to threat reduction mechanics and it was multiplicative.

[ZeykShade]

We've been laughed for so long mr. autoattack bot for so many years. We've fecked our eyes so badly in MH trying to find a "back" to mutilate in this frenzy of mobs and shader effects while you were just pressing BF and spamming SS. Yet you come here and whine about DPS imbalances, I didn’t see you on the side of mutilate or sub rogues when combat was easily 1-3% above them in TBC.

Your time mr. bot is over, all rogue trees get easy access to the so precious DW talent. If blizz manages to deliver the whole equal trees thing, the only people that need to be afraid are the bad rogues and you know that the majority of combat rogues are actually bad players. They could hide under the comfort of reaching 90% of overall damage just by using S&D and spamming SS (tough work I know) but now easy mode is out hence the QQing... You will have some serious competition from the other trees in WoTLK get used to it mr. bot and start practising.

You're a troll right?
1-3% difference? lmfao. 1600dps vs. 4200dps is a hell of a lot more considering there is no positional requirement for either build.

"autoattack bot"? Do you even play this game? If you're going to argue that pressing a different button more slowly is harder than Combat Swords in a pve environment, you're assinine.

Bad players are bad players regardless of builds. Most good combat sword rogues were combat daggers prior to TBC.

[Funkyjunky]

We've been laughed for so long mr. autoattack bot for so many years. We've fecked our eyes so badly in MH trying to find a "back" to mutilate in this frenzy of mobs and shader effects while you were just pressing BF and spamming SS. Yet you come here and whine about DPS imbalances, I didn’t see you on the side of mutilate or sub rogues when combat was easily 1-3% above them in TBC.

Your time mr. bot is over, all rogue trees get easy access to the so precious DW talent. If blizz manages to deliver the whole equal trees thing, the only people that need to be afraid are the bad rogues and you know that the majority of combat rogues are actually bad players. They could hide under the comfort of reaching 90% of overall damage just by using S&D and spamming SS (tough work I know) but now easy mode is out hence the QQing... You will have some serious competition from the other trees in WoTLK get used to it mr. bot and start practising.

Good players know how to spec and what equipment to get to actually perform good.
Bad players spec crap in order to whine at them who are speccing "easymode".

L3P

[Ariashley]

OMG rogues need buffs.MOAR, MOAR, MOAR,...!!!

http://wowwebstats.com/4hq1r5vdzojou?s=46-24765

How about this?Do you wanna 1shot Brutallus?
Stop QQ plz!

As a rogue raiding in Sunwell, I can say that right now, ya, it's a pretty sweet place to be. You can't make an arguement with a web stat file when talking about an expansion without analyzing what it means and pointing out how it's relevant to the discussion (which your link is not). Besides, it's not like the hunters and warriors aren't mixed in there with the rogues on dps. However,
1) the #1 rogue in that fight has ridiculous gear (which 90% of the raid starting on Bruttalus, won't)
2) had drum rotations going in the party (gone in WOTLK),
3) got 2 Heroism/Bloodlusts (gone in WOTLK)
4) the boss had both a Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness debuffs increasing physical damage (won't stack in WOTLK)
5) the rogues had both Blessing of Might and Battle Shout (won't stack in WOTLK)
6) the rogue is specced combat swords (not assassination)

This discussion is primarily talking about assassination builds and that the combat tree, in comparison, is lackluster. Linking a fight for the Top 3 best kill of Brutallus and acting like that represents the rogue class as a whole is ridiculous. Certain fights favor certain classes. That's just the way it is. As a rogue, I'm NEVER going to be #1 damage on Illidan. There are a lot of fights in BT that just suck for melee and even a couple in Hyjal. Sunwell fights often favor melee (which is kind of a nice change).

I personally think they're going to reorganize the combat tree a little and will nerf assassination some before it goes live. DPS calculators updated for the test results on the talents (excluding the poison bug) is still reflecting that deep assassination at 70 would result in around 4500 DPS with daggers and deep combat at 70 would result in around 2800-3000 DPS with swords. It seems pretty clear that it isn't working as intended.

Your time mr. bot is over, all rogue trees get easy access to the so precious DW talent. If blizz manages to deliver the whole equal trees thing, the only people that need to be afraid are the bad rogues and you know that the majority of combat rogues are actually bad players. They could hide under the comfort of reaching 90% of overall damage just by using S&D and spamming SS (tough work I know) but now easy mode is out hence the QQing...

If you see rogues autoattacking in serious raiding guilds and still topping damage meters, then the rest of the raiders in that guild are the worst players ever. I can guarantee you that to stay in the top 5 on the damage meter against good players of other classes takes a serious amount of concentration and effort, specced combat. I've raided specced hemo tri-spec as well. To be honest, that was a hell of a lot easier (and more boring), as energy regeneration and combat point generation was a lot more predictable - and there were a lot fewer cool downs to use.

It would be nice if the three trees were similar to hunters, where all 3 specs could bring something to the table to make them useable in a raid and add their little chunk of utility. That appears to be Blizzard's goal. It just isn't there yet. I'd like to see assassination on par with combat. I would prefer not to see it completely eclipse it where it becomes the new only spec that can be used for raiding.

I will be really happy if we have more than one raiding spec that is useful. It's always more fun to switch things up a little. That said, I still haven't decided which of my characters I will level first for raiding in the expansion. I have a couple I can choose from and they're all getting face lifts in the expansion.

[Ion]

The current poison scale is off the wall, I fully expect it to be nerfed terribly next push. Poison application aside the damage a single application does is still retardedly high.

that's a load of crap, there is not anything wrong with the damage. Currently poisons make up 9-12% of a assassination rogues damage in a raid. In pcp they do next to do damage. Now if specced into they are actually a threat, and not a laughing stock like assassination rogues are
now.

[GT4]

that's a load of crap, there is not anything wrong with the damage. Currently poisons make up 9-12% of a assassination rogues damage in a raid. In pcp they do next to do damage. Now if specced into they are actually a threat, and not a laughing stock like assassination rogues are
now.

In WotLK poisons currently make up for ~60% of your damage, a Level 70 Rogue in Sunwell gear does ~4k DPS unbuffed against bosses. If that's not overpowered, tell me what is overpowered then?
Or is it the part where a Level 70 Rogue can kill a Level 80 Deftank in a Cheap Shot>Kidney Shot combo that was not overpowered?

[Ion]

do you know why assassination rogues are doing so much damage? It is because poisons proc100% of the time. Wait and see how things turn out once the prod rate has been fixed.

[Ariashley]

do you know why assassination rogues are doing so much damage? It is because poisons proc100% of the time. Wait and see how things turn out once the prod rate has been fixed.

That's the tip of the iceberg. If you look at how it SHOULD work by doing the math (with appropriate proc rates), in my raiding gear with the changes to raid buffs, I would do between 4000 and 4500 DPS specced 51 in assassination with daggers and around 2800 to 3200 DPS specced 51 in combat with swords, at 70, compared to 1900 with 41 in combat today. Clearly in a dueling situation without all the raid buffs and wearing PvP gear, the situation would look quite different. But much more than the proc rate is broken.

I'm not saying I want to see assassination not be viable, since I'd love to play with it in raids. But it definitely needs to be tuned down a little.

[arenascrub]

"autoattack bot"? Do you even play this game? If you're going to argue that pressing a different button more slowly is harder than Combat Swords in a pve environment, you're assinine.

Do you even know what margin for error is? /startattack /cast sinister strike go go bot! Go along with your 1 macro hunter friends and 1 button SB spammers. This game needs some skill put into it.

Good players know how to spec and what equipment to get to actually perform good.
Bad players spec crap in order to whine at them who are speccing "easymode".

L3P

The problem right now (TBC for you) is the fact that a more demanding playstyle performs worst than a less demanding playstyle if you don't get it I don't really care. I have full respect for people that spec the underdogs and perform well because they are clearly gifted individuals I wouldn't say the same about cookie cutter monkey brain followers. I mean do you really have any respect for warrior / druid teams in the 2vs2 bracket? Well-timed mace stun borthah, that’s clearly a sign of a good player!

As for the whole poisons thing, it's been mentioned a 1000 times in this thread Improved Poisons talent is bugged (invest 1 talent point and get 100% application) and it will be fixed.

[Ion]

I am on my iPod touch, API can't type much or fast.

Gonna give you the hell no on that one.

Assass rogues should be able to kill plate armor classes way faster than what they do on live. Dropping one with one stunlock however is too much. Rogues should do enough dps so that they can bypass a healers heals. Currently they cannot. Rogues should be one of those classes that when they're on someone, people should try and pull them off of them, but all that happens is they're seen as an annoyance and are just healed through the rogues damage. In pvs assassination rogues are just a lesser form of combat daggers with a twist.

Now that our damage comes from adifferent source, we're finially different.

My only question is, when the bugged prod rate is fixed, will assassination be brought to combats level, or vice verse? I feel combat should be buffed up to assassinations level.