why??

[SkaSløyeDæ]

us retris just got nerfed a little bit more....why why why?? we`re NOT op at 80, not even close...wasn`t it Blizzard's intent that our dps would be competitive? and it`s already been proven that our dps ay 80 is mid level at best...good news for other "pure" dps classes I guess since they`ve been bitching and moaning as hard as they could, and it seems to be paying off.... >

[Pyrostemplar]

us retris just got nerfed a little bit more....why why why?? we`re NOT op at 80, not even close...wasn`t it Blizzard's intent that our dps would be competitive? and it`s already been proven that our dps ay 80 is mid level at best...good news for other "pure" dps classes I guess since they`ve been bitching and moaning as hard as they could, and it seems to be paying off.... >

Mid level is fine.. actually if anyone has to be bottom seems that the Pally design fits the bill perfectly - Hybrid, buffer, plate... (so the "other" is completely wrong, as pallies are not a pure DPS class).

Anyway, it is beta and blah blah blah.

Expect more nerfs.

[Poseido]

Hybrid? Just because we can be a tank,healer or dps means that we should be shit in all 3 aspects? Have you ever tried healing as ret? You can problably cast about 5-6 Holy Lights before going oom, and what about prot? if i had a full mana pool, i couldnt heal my pally to full health using all my mana. HAve you ever tried dpsing as a holy Pally in ret gear? its pathetic at best... It seems that the only thing you can do as ret is dps, But thats being nerfed more and more. This whole Hybrid bullshit is ridiculous, If Im a certain spec that fullfills a certain role, i should be able to compete with any other class that is specced for the same role. Do you wanna punish the paladin becuase he can fullfill all 3 roles in the game if specced for it?

[Robby]

Hybrid? Just because we can be a tank,healer or dps means that we should be shit in all 3 aspects? Have you ever tried healing as ret? You can problably cast about 5-6 Holy Lights before going oom, and what about prot? if i had a full mana pool, i couldnt heal my pally to full health using all my mana. HAve you ever tried dpsing as a holy Pally in ret gear? its pathetic at best... It seems that the only thing you can do as ret is dps, But thats being nerfed more and more. This whole Hybrid bullshit is ridiculous, If Im a certain spec that fullfills a certain role, i should be able to compete with any other class that is specced for the same role. Do you wanna punish the paladin becuase he can fullfill all 3 roles in the game if specced for it?

Have you ever tried to dps as a prot warrior? Or even tank as a dps warrior?

you spec into what you like, you aint supposed to do everything with one spec ..

[Albinocow]

.. .. ... ...
.. ... .... .. ... .... Eh.....
...
.. ......

.. .... Did you read what he just wrote?....

[dolgi]

Have you ever tried to dps as a prot warrior? Or even tank as a dps warrior?

you spec into what you like, you aint supposed to do everything with one spec ..

Misunderstand stuff much?

What he means is that if you have specced into something and have gathered the gear for the specc you should be able to fulfill the role you chose. Just because hybrids lets you choose one of three very different speccs (four if your a durid, but hey, let's just bitch about pallies, right?) that doesn't mean that they should be subpar in every one of these trees. In that case there wouldn't be any point in having hybrids at all since, depending on what class forum your browsing, every class seems to feel their toes trodden on by hybrids in one way or another if they are balanced well.

[Poseido]

I have no problem having shit dps as a prot pally, I have no problem doing a horrible job healing as a ret paladin, HOWEVER, i HAVE a problem when im a ret pally and i cant do dps. When im nerfed over and over to the point of having no viability whatsoever in a pve envioronment because some idiots cry that i beat them in 1v1 combat. Last i chekced WoW was not balanced around 1v1...

[Ghash]

Hybrid? Just because we can be a tank,healer or dps means that we should be shit in all 3 aspects? Have you ever tried healing as ret? You can problably cast about 5-6 Holy Lights before going oom, and what about prot? if i had a full mana pool, i couldnt heal my pally to full health using all my mana. HAve you ever tried dpsing as a holy Pally in ret gear? its pathetic at best... It seems that the only thing you can do as ret is dps, But thats being nerfed more and more. This whole Hybrid bullshit is ridiculous, If Im a certain spec that fullfills a certain role, i should be able to compete with any other class that is specced for the same role. Do you wanna punish the paladin becuase he can fullfill all 3 roles in the game if specced for it?

And now you know how druids have felt since the game was released.

[dolgi]

And now you know how druids have felt since the game was released.

Now we know how you've felt since the game was released...

[Pyrostemplar]

Hybrid? Just because we can be a tank,healer or dps means that we should be shit in all 3 aspects? Have you ever tried healing as ret? You can problably cast about 5-6 Holy Lights before going oom, and what about prot? if i had a full mana pool, i couldnt heal my pally to full health using all my mana. HAve you ever tried dpsing as a holy Pally in ret gear? its pathetic at best... It seems that the only thing you can do as ret is dps, But thats being nerfed more and more. This whole Hybrid bullshit is ridiculous, If Im a certain spec that fullfills a certain role, i should be able to compete with any other class that is specced for the same role. Do you wanna punish the paladin becuase he can fullfill all 3 roles in the game if specced for it?

Have you ever tried (pick the how many talent points and gear as you like) healing as a rogue or tanking as a mage?

Can you see why you should not DPS as either just by going to the Talent trainer and getting some new gear?

Misunderstand stuff much?

What he means is that if you have specced into something and have gathered the gear for the specc you should be able to fulfill the role you chose. Just because hybrids lets you choose one of three very different speccs (four if your a durid, but hey, let's just bitch about pallies, right?) that doesn't mean that they should be subpar in every one of these trees. In that case there wouldn't be any point in having hybrids at all since, depending on what class forum your browsing, every class seems to feel their toes trodden on by hybrids in one way or another if they are balanced well.

Compared to the pure class on that role, yes they should have inferior performance. By how much is the question, not whether.

He can fulfill the DPS role, just not as well as a specialist (the "pure" classes).


Role wise:
There are full hybrid classes (pala, druid, DK)
There are partially Hybrid classes (shammies, warriors and priests)
There are Pet based DPS classes (Hunters, Locks)
There are pure solo DPS classes (mage, rogues).

So you should get an idea on DPS scales...

[diobrando]

At 80, a paladins DPS is nowhere near a "pure DPS" class.

Also, I think, because of all the whines, the nerf will be coming in small waves, rather than one big wave.

[Vice]

And now you know how druids have felt since the game was released.

Yeah cos resto druids cant heal...

[Mur.]

Retri still is a mana battery and a heal battery, they also give blessings. These three things should make their dps suffer a little bit, but tbh, a nerf in burst dps would have been more appropriate. It's the burst that makes them op atm.

[Vice]

And i suppose 3 guaranteed crits on your abilities (recklessness) usable in arena isn't OP burst damage. Who couldnt heal through that with MS on the target?

[Melanctha]

first things first, Pyrostemplar, you are just plain retarded. end of.


now,
ret only seems to be imbalanced pvp burst wise,
so from a guy who has no beta access, this seem like a stupid change.

seriously,
we keep getting sustained dps nerfs, and burst buffs....

[Xs]

they should really just nerf SoC a bit, and make SoB the PvE seal since everyone has it now
its gonna end up like that anyway so why not start early

[Biral]

Have you ever tried (pick the how many talent points and gear as you like) healing as a rogue or tanking as a mage?

Can you see why you should not DPS as either just by going to the Talent trainer and getting some new gear?


Compared to the pure class on that role, yes they should have inferior performance. By how much is the question, not whether.

He can fulfill the DPS role, just not as well as a specialist (the "pure" classes).


Role wise:
There are full hybrid classes (pala, druid, DK)
There are partially Hybrid classes (shammies, warriors and priests)
There are Pet based DPS classes (Hunters, Locks)
There are pure solo DPS classes (mage, rogues).

So you should get an idea on DPS scales...

1. How the hell is Death Knight a full hybrid class?
2. You're unworthy of a raid spot if you think this.
3. Show me where it says on the WoW site: "If you want to be top on the damage meters, roll a Mage or Rogue. If you want to be near second, roll a Hunter or a Warlock. If you want to supply a little raid utility and be decent on the damage meters, roll a Shaman, a Warrior, or a Priest. If you want to supply a lot of raid utility and be dead last on the damage meters, roll a Paladin, Death Knight, or Druid.

Wait... what? What utility are we talking about?

Every single source of our utility can be overridden by another class. 3% crit? Assassination Rogue and Elemental Shaman, 3% haste? Boomkins offer 2%, not that big a difference. 2% damage? Beastmastery Hunters offer 3% increased damage to their party. Melee/Ranged Attack Power? Any Warrior can provide this. Judgement of Wisdom? Holy Paladin using the Judges to get 10% flat haste. Judgement of Light? Almost useless. Replenishment? Shadow Priests renew it on more targets faster, as do Survival Hunters.

So where is your argument, really? Paladins offer utility, sure, but that utility is easily replaced by higher damaging classes. We don't want to be replaced because some developer has some angst against the Paladin class, and we don't want to be replaced because idiots like you make blanket statements that are obviously biased and false.

We just want to DPS. Come on.

[Pyrostemplar]

1. How the hell is Death Knight a full hybrid class?
2. You're unworthy of a raid spot if you think this.
3. Show me where it says on the WoW site: "If you want to be top on the damage meters, roll a Mage or Rogue. If you want to be near second, roll a Hunter or a Warlock. If you want to supply a little raid utility and be decent on the damage meters, roll a Shaman, a Warrior, or a Priest. If you want to supply a lot of raid utility and be dead last on the damage meters, roll a Paladin, Death Knight, or Druid.

Wait... what? What utility are we talking about?

Every single source of our utility can be overridden by another class. 3% crit? Assassination Rogue and Elemental Shaman, 3% haste? Boomkins offer 2%, not that big a difference. 2% damage? Beastmastery Hunters offer 3% increased damage to their party. Melee/Ranged Attack Power? Any Warrior can provide this. Judgement of Wisdom? Holy Paladin using the Judges to get 10% flat haste. Judgement of Light? Almost useless. Replenishment? Shadow Priests renew it on more targets faster, as do Survival Hunters.

So where is your argument, really? Paladins offer utility, sure, but that utility is easily replaced by higher damaging classes. We don't want to be replaced because some developer has some angst against the Paladin class, and we don't want to be replaced because idiots like you make blanket statements that are obviously biased and false.

We just want to DPS. Come on.

1) My typo :P (the original list was a bit different and did a C&P error)
2) I raid lead (even if at a modes level) so I usually have no problems in getting raidspots
3) read the class descriptions in http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes - there is a difference between "Paladins are a defensive class designed to outlast their opponents" and "Rogues are a lightly armored melee class capable of dealing massive damage to their enemies in a flurry of attacks" (just as an example)

Everyone can mostly be replaced by everyone within their roles, meanwhile raid leaders spend their time trying to find half decent players of any class, that can use their brains at a decent level.

To a point all classes and specs are different but there is a balance line - survivability, damage ability, utility and sustainability. That is why, even within the same class, different specs should have different DPS potential. If a class/spec equals another in everything but for one of this factors - where it is superior - you just found a superior line up - the other one is redundant. That is the reason that - for example - a fire mage should out DPS a frost one - the latter has more utility, survivability and sustainability. The ability to switch roles is - in itself - a personal utility. Which is quite relevant on a guild setting (e.g. - I have more spots in the guild for druids than warriors).

As classes go the skills are less comparable but they translate into different "utility" values. If there is one lineup for a particular role that is both stackable and superior, you get "stacked" raids effect - which translates into overrepresented classes.

Now to the point - should a retri pala have competitive DPS? Sure, no problems with that. Hell, I had no problems in having retri palas in my raids, as long as they did know how to play the role (which was the case). But what is "competitive DPS"? Not necessarily "equal" (I'll let you on a little secret - DPS has relative value as long as it is decent -I don't get particularly worried if someone deals 80% DPS of the top dmg dealer in a raid - extremely concerned if it is bellow the tank :P)

So, should a retri pala match the dmg potential of - let say - a rogue? No, nope, sorry.

There are several good reasons for that - some RPG connected (yes, I know that wow is getting infested by Action figure hypnotized CS kiddies but no need to overdo it), other due to the class descriptions (Blizzard does states that rogues are at the highest level of DPS values) - but also to avoid class stacking.

There is not "retri pala" class, but Paladin. All aspects (protection, holy and retribution) are a part of the deal.

And there is only room for 2.5 players per class. Which means that each raid should have - on average - 2 or 3 palas/mages/.../DKs. And raid/class design should reflect that. Not on a "need basis" but on a optimal basis.

But what is the value of role flexibility and how much should it cost in terms of DPS?

Well, it is hard to put a figure on that, particularly taking into account that different specs blurr the lines further (e.g. a "survival" spec of a "pure DPS" spec could be bellow of a DPS spec of a more hybrid class). But, regarding dmg output if one cannot see why classes that specialize on it should have it at the highest level, well...

[mightus]

1) My typo :P (the original list was a bit different and did a C&P error)
2) I raid lead (even if at a modes level) so I usually have no problems in getting raidspots
3) read the class descriptions in http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes - there is a difference between "Paladins are a defensive class designed to outlast their opponents" and "Rogues are a lightly armored melee class capable of dealing massive damage to their enemies in a flurry of attacks" (just as an example)

Everyone can mostly be replaced by everyone within their roles, meanwhile raid leaders spend their time trying to find half decent players of any class, that can use their brains at a decent level.

To a point all classes and specs are different but there is a balance line - survivability, damage ability, utility and sustainability. That is why, even within the same class, different specs should have different DPS potential. If a class/spec equals another in everything but for one of this factors - where it is superior - you just found a superior line up - the other one is redundant. That is the reason that - for example - a fire mage should out DPS a frost one - the latter has more utility, survivability and sustainability. The ability to switch roles is - in itself - a personal utility. Which is quite relevant on a guild setting (e.g. - I have more spots in the guild for druids than warriors).

As classes go the skills are less comparable but they translate into different "utility" values. If there is one lineup for a particular role that is both stackable and superior, you get "stacked" raids effect - which translates into overrepresented classes.

Now to the point - should a retri pala have competitive DPS? Sure, no problems with that. Hell, I had no problems in having retri palas in my raids, as long as they did know how to play the role (which was the case). But what is "competitive DPS"? Not necessarily "equal" (I'll let you on a little secret - DPS has relative value as long as it is decent -I don't get particularly worried if someone deals 80% DPS of the top dmg dealer in a raid - extremely concerned if it is bellow the tank :P)

So, should a retri pala match the dmg potential of - let say - a rogue? No, nope, sorry.

There are several good reasons for that - some RPG connected (yes, I know that wow is getting infested by Action figure hypnotized CS kiddies but no need to overdo it), other due to the class descriptions (Blizzard does states that rogues are at the highest level of DPS values) - but also to avoid class stacking.

There is not "retri pala" class, but Paladin. All aspects (protection, holy and retribution) are a part of the deal.

And there is only room for 2.5 players per class. Which means that each raid should have - on average - 2 or 3 palas/mages/.../DKs. And raid/class design should reflect that. Not on a "need basis" but on a optimal basis.

But what is the value of role flexibility and how much should it cost in terms of DPS?

Well, it is hard to put a figure on that, particularly taking into account that different specs blurr the lines further (e.g. a "survival" spec of a "pure DPS" spec could be bellow of a DPS spec of a more hybrid class). But, regarding dmg output if one cannot see why classes that specialize on it should have it at the highest level, well...

Retribution -- You're a melee dps class, and one of only a handful of classes that can fill the "mana battery" role. With the changes to the way raid buffs work, we are blurring the lines a lot more between "pure" dps classes and hybrids that have the potential to respec if their dps doesn't work out. But we don't penalize classes for having awesome buffs the way we used to. Also remember that one of Ret's big limitations before was just getting in the group with the good melee buffs. That problem is solved. If you're good and know your stuff cold, you should be able to be up there with the rogues and hunters. Maybe not every fight, but not 500 dps below them either.
- Blue Post By Ghostcrawler

We should not be way at the bottom of the dps meters.

[clownhair]

Ive seen ret pallys usually lower on the dmg meters in naxx, although this is on the premade server and the gear they give you is really bad.