why??

[Yvert]

they should really just nerf SoC a bit, and make SoB the PvE seal since everyone has it now
its gonna end up like that anyway so why not start early

No. If you use Martyr/Blood for soloing then you're stupid. That extra health loss for solo can really hurt you. The way SoC is now is perfectly fine for solo/pvp. If you stun a target you get a guarantee crit but it's not double damaged for 4.5-5k possibly 6k for some. SoB/SotM is for PvE (groups/raids) and i use it in every instance i do on BETA and do just find on DPS.

[Yvert]

Ive seen ret pallys usually lower on the dmg meters in naxx, although this is on the premade server and the gear they give you is really bad.

Yeah the pre-mades are in all pvp gear which is retarded. There was a SS on the beta pally forums of a pally DPS in naxx he did like 3500dps or something and was 8th on the meter.... I can do 8th on the meter and do 1500-1700dps as of now on live servers(I'm Alli). It's really not a BIG woohoo change in damage when every class got buffed which is expected.

[Pyrostemplar]

Yeah the pre-mades are in all pvp gear which is retarded. There was a SS on the beta pally forums of a pally DPS in naxx he did like 3500dps or something and was 8th on the meter.... I can do 8th on the meter and do 1500-1700dps as of now on live servers(I'm Alli). It's really not a BIG woohoo change in damage when every class got buffed which is expected.

Thats why I say "expect more nerfs"

Thing is it will not only hit ret pallies, but most classes/spec also.

Retribution -- You're a melee dps class, and one of only a handful of classes that can fill the "mana battery" role. With the changes to the way raid buffs work, we are blurring the lines a lot more between "pure" dps classes and hybrids that have the potential to respec if their dps doesn't work out. But we don't penalize classes for having awesome buffs the way we used to. Also remember that one of Ret's big limitations before was just getting in the group with the good melee buffs. That problem is solved. If you're good and know your stuff cold, you should be able to be up there with the rogues and hunters. Maybe not every fight, but not 500 dps below them either.
- Blue Post By Ghostcrawler

We should not be way at the bottom of the dps meters.

Ahh blues.. they are so delightful. If GC had said something towards feral druids or ele shammies he (or she) would say more or less the same. Then to rogues "Don't worry your lesser survivability and lack of utility will be taken into account as you are a pure DPS class". Or to mages "Pure unadulterated damage". Or to hunters "the fact you are an easy mode high survivability class will not penalize you, because on the other hand your class is affected by a retarded sandbox PVP wannabe setting and unfortunately attracts more than its fair share of retards" (note: I suspect he might word this last sentence a bit differently).


Interestingly they are not precisely lying, but not saying anything really. Translating into game reality, it means that ret pallies should be somewhere between the tank and rogues. Which is the right place to be, but that we already knew.

At launch you may even be impressed by high relative damage. But then nags occur.. itemization is not there, other classes have higher scalability or you lack some tools to deliver DPS at the same level (which is actually good design). Or you get nerfed.

The big question about WotLK is not whether they will balance the class, but who will be the favored classes. If you have played wow long enough you should know that :P

[mightus]

Thats why I say "expect more nerfs"

Thing is it will not only hit ret pallies, but most classes/spec also.

Ahh blues.. they are so delightful. If GC had said something towards feral druids or ele shammies he (or she) would say more or less the same. Then to rogues "Don't worry your lesser survivability and lack of utility will be taken into account as you are a pure DPS class". Or to mages "Pure unadulterated damage". Or to hunters "the fact you are an easy mode high survivability class will not penalize you, because on the other hand your class is affected by a retarded sandbox PVP wannabe setting and unfortunately attracts more than its fair share of retards" (note: I suspect he might word this last sentence a bit differently).


Interestingly they are not precisely lying, but not saying anything really. Translating into game reality, it means that ret pallies should be somewhere between the tank and rogues. Which is the right place to be, but that we already knew.

At launch you may even be impressed by high relative damage. But then nags occur.. itemization is not there, other classes have higher scalability or you lack some tools to deliver DPS at the same level (which is actually good design). Or you get nerfed.

The big question about WotLK is not whether they will balance the class, but who will be the favored classes. If you have played wow long enough you should know that :P

We are doing way less dps than other classes. My point is not that we should be top dps, or just above the tanks, but rather that we should be doing ~90-95% of the dps the top dps is doing. Blizzard is "blurring the lines a lot more between "pure" dps classes and hybrids that have the potential to respec if their dps doesn't work out."

[Omatre]

Here's the underlying problem, lemme paint a scenario for you so we can all see where Blizzard's mind is:

Shadow Priest, you cannot cast this heal while in Shadowform.
Ret: You cannot dps while in this talent tree, because you can heal, unlike shadowform.

That's their mindset I think for ret at this point.
How dare they give you the ability to DPS, AND heal, without changing a spec (1 heal to them is still a heal, even if by doing that 1 heal, you go OOM). Why, if we allowed all the classes to DPS and heal at the same time, we'd all be hybrids of ourselves.
Instead, the "homogonized" class structure concept, has went to pot, its gonna be the same situation as its always been (this class is better laid out, take this class).

There is no raid synergy, only raid min / maxing that will determine who stays and who goes. 0.025% of your mana pool is piss in the bucket. Remove that stupid chain chugging restriction and what do you have, probably 0.025% of your mana regen'd over that cooldown period. So they allowed me to spend less of my gold on consumables, they made it so that mana regen is tied to classes, and they made it so that bringing those classes with that incredible "utility" means that I'll basically have to choose between a high dps class and one that gives me mana, cause when it all breaks down to it, thats all that really matters.

Tell me where this "more fun to play with friends" concept went?

[Pyrostemplar]

We are doing way less dps than other classes. My point is not that we should be top dps, or just above the tanks, but rather that we should be doing ~90-95% of the dps the top dps is doing. Blizzard is "blurring the lines a lot more between "pure" dps classes and hybrids that have the potential to respec if their dps doesn't work out."

Actually 90-95% may be a bit high - I'd wager more in the 80-85% line, but I'm not really familiar with the currently proposed retri utility for WotLK. The "blurring the lines" is a nice catchy thing, but can have the same worth as Kalgan's infamous words towards mages ("kings of AOE", "number one single target damage dealer"), or can be for real. Just don't count on it. Blizzard is not really reliable :P (e.g. at a point mages were doing 65% of rogue damage in TK if I remember correctly - it was a long time ago)

[Vorpal]

Here's the underlying problem, lemme paint a scenario for you so we can all see where Blizzard's mind is:

Shadow Priest, you cannot cast this heal while in Shadowform.
Ret: You cannot dps while in this talent tree, because you can heal, unlike shadowform.

That's their mindset I think for ret at this point.
How dare they give you the ability to DPS, AND heal, without changing a spec (1 heal to them is still a heal, even if by doing that 1 heal, you go OOM). Why, if we allowed all the classes to DPS and heal at the same time, we'd all be hybrids of ourselves.
Instead, the "homogonized" class structure concept, has went to pot, its gonna be the same situation as its always been (this class is better laid out, take this class).

There is no raid synergy, only raid min / maxing that will determine who stays and who goes. 0.025% of your mana pool is piss in the bucket. Remove that stupid chain chugging restriction and what do you have, probably 0.025% of your mana regen'd over that cooldown period. So they allowed me to spend less of my gold on consumables, they made it so that mana regen is tied to classes, and they made it so that bringing those classes with that incredible "utility" means that I'll basically have to choose between a high dps class and one that gives me mana, cause when it all breaks down to it, thats all that really matters.

Tell me where this "more fun to play with friends" concept went?

1)First of all you can't compare shadow priests to retradins, you can't even compare warriors let alone casters.
2)Retradin heal sux
3)You cannot use more than one mana potion per fight so there should be at least 1 mana battaries for 10 mans and 3 for 25 man if you want 100%, and its 0.25% per second meaning 2.5% per 10 secs and 30% at 120 secs which is the CD of the mana pots atm, which is really cool. That leaves 9 spots at 10-mans and 22 spots and 25-man for friends, happy now?
4) All three, Retradin/SP/Survaval hunter should be at 75% of the rogue dps NOT more than that, they are hydrids after all

[Rawberry]

The reasons why we are not Op at 80

We do not have int on our gear

A Paladin at level 80 has 4394 base mana, add 1200 mana from base Intellect and add mana from enchants you will be looking around what, 6000 mana? With proper regeneration that should be enough.

Spells/talents don't scale like other class's spells/abilities do

Those 2 reasons right there makes us not op at 80 since all classes with be using level 80 spell/talents at 80. We will be op for 70 and up till we replace our dps plate that has int on it with other dps plate that doesn't

Uh, all our abilities scale with AP or SPH, or in alot of cases with both AP and SPH. So, huh?

[Rawberry]

Talents scale with stats i was pointing out that they don't scale in ranks for said abilities. Last i check other classes talents will be scaling with stats like they have always have while having yet another rank of frost bolt for example. Pretty much they fixed most if not all our talents by allowing them to scale with both sp and ap.

I have no idea what you mean. Could you formulate differently please?

If you mean sockets and enchantments to put on our gear that doesn't equal up to the amount we have now on Ptr/live and also it places the choice into the players hand if he wants those added stats with enchanting and socket gems.

6000 mana with a 20% mana return every 8 seconds would equal 1200 mana, that is plenty to allow for a standard rotation plus a Flash of Light.

Thanks for coming out.

I just tried to converse with you in a normal, mature manner... Be a good boy and take me up on it before I bury you again?

[Gracin]

1)First of all you can't compare shadow priests to retradins, you can't even compare warriors let alone casters.
2)Retradin heal sux
3)You cannot use more than one mana potion per fight so there should be at least 1 mana battaries for 10 mans and 3 for 25 man if you want 100%, and its 0.25% per second meaning 2.5% per 10 secs and 30% at 120 secs which is the CD of the mana pots atm, which is really cool. That leaves 9 spots at 10-mans and 22 spots and 25-man for friends, happy now?
4) All three, Retradin/SP/Survaval hunter should be at 75% of the rogue dps NOT more than that, they are hydrids after all

1) Why, both Spriests and Ret fill the exact same roll. They both dps, they both are mana batteries.
2) Duh, too bad Spriest heals don't. "Oh, you mean all I have to do is click off the shadowform buff?"
3) No comment
4) So according to this, we not only got DK as a new class in WotLK but also Survival Hunter? Last time I checked a hunter was a pure dps class. I don't seem to recall doing SWP on my hunter and having the option to heal/tank/dps.

[Vorpal]

1) They do magic damage, are a ranged class, wear cloth and cooperate well with other casters (e.g locks) while retradins are melee,50% magic+50% normal damage plate wearers that work well with other melee classes.
2) If a retradin tryies to heal he will oom fast + his heals are not so effective as a SP's, yeah click Shadowform off, is it such a big deal? After all you don't have to be in melee now do you, retris will probably have. Anyway i really want to know why we speak about it, if any of the dpsers have to heal it's your healers fault.
3) Do you agree or not?
4) Sorry didn't meant hybrid there, just wanted to point out the dps that, imo, we should be doing, and yeah Survival hunter was a nearly dead class in TBC they deserve some love.

Looking forward to your anwers ;D

[Rawberry]

Keyword here is normalized you never did it the first time, so i was wrong with the math at being 11 ppm so it's 9 with the glyph. I guess i must be getting real lucky then hitting 9 ppm normalized with soc without the glyph.

I told you a million times that the PPM value is not a restriction in anyway, in theory you could proc Seal of Command on all the 16 autoswings you have with a 3.60 weapon .

And again the PPM with a the Glyph is 7 / 100 * 20 = 8.4.

Anyways back on topic. What i was clearly pointing out is that at level 80 other dps classes have higher rank of their dpsing abilities where paladins do not. Probably the reason why they are allowing Paladins talents to scale with ap and sp and some base spells is because of this. The only dps spells that we get increased ranks with is Consecration, Exorcism, Holy wrath and Hammer of Wrath. Keep in mind I'm talking about base damage spells and not talents, and only 1 of those abilities you can use any time you want.

But aslong as our AP and SPH scaling is worth it there should not be a problem?

As for mana it isn't a issue and is more or less a fix for the spec that should of been put in place when TBC was released. It doesn't make us Op it just gives us what we need to keep going with our spells when spec into our damage tree.

Second open your character window and tell me what Int does for you as a Ret paladin. Ill let you figure that out.

True, this should have been released a long time ago, but it did not so we should focus more on the future instead of the past .

Intellect as a Human Paladin? 83 Intellect at level 70. 113 Intellect at level 80, so as I said you will be around 6000 mana.


Addendum: To clarify, I am not contesting your statement that the Paladin at level 80 is not OP, I'm just discussing the reasons you gave.

[Rawberry]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Meaning soc procing off all 16 swing would never ever happen at all in practice and it would be a cold day in hell to even experiance that happening to yourself in game. The most you will ever really get if you are lucky should be at about 9 to 12 soc procs even though i highly doubt that it will ever happen i don't agree that you will get really any more then 9 with the glyph because of the normalization nature of the spell with a 3.80 weapon. I merely just stated what i have seen in the ptr atm. Either it being broken or not that's what i am seeing without the glyph of 9 ppm every time i go to test it.

On a side note even if this is a rumor or not, i read something somewhere from a player or blue (but i can't remember which) saying because of the trade off of the damage being lowered with soc they plan to increase the PPM of soc. I never disagreed with your math on the spell. Note that and write that down.

Oh a side note Soc is doing the right damage right now on the ptr when judging the target. Guess it's worth a talent point once again.

About Seal of Command proccing 16 times in a row; I said in theory, I never said it was likely to happen so I dunno why you are discussing this point.

Secondly, you just agreed with me 2 post back that Seal of Command has a PPM of 7. Add 20% to 7 and you get 8.4, not 9? The PPM value is not just a value you can measure. You can't just turn on recount, go about it for a minute or 5 and say "This is the PPM value of Seal of Command". You need hours and hours of Seal of Command procs to overcome the randomness to figure out the correct PPM value.

Note that, and I have said this before, the PPM value of Seal of Command is not a variable value, it is static value hardcoded into the World of warcraft mechanics.


I'm not trying to flame you here or spark another discussion between us, I'm just trying to make you understand how the PPM value works so you in turn become a better Paladin.

Pretty much there shouldn't be a problem with ap and SPH scaling with the talents and spells because in the end if Blizzard finds that the talent or spell is doing to much damage in regards to what i said last post. They can merely go into the spell and change the % on the spell dealing with ap/sph rather then totally destroying it altogether like they have done in the past with our talent/spells. so no i don't see it being a problem.

But that is not what you said in the first place? You can't just say "Not having ranks is a problem" and than say "Not having ranks is no problem" unless someone changed your mind, and in that case you say "Yeah, I agree"...

There is no shame :-*...

As for mana i wasn't really focusing it on that aspect even though it's pretty nice to have with jotw and divine plea. What i was more or less trying to get you to focus on is the spell crit it adds to our talents in ret adding more overall crit chance with our spell and talents that deal with holy damage. Since we will not have Int on our gear that lowers our overall crit chance as you pointed out at lvl 80 having only "113 Intellect at level 80".

More crits with Judgements means more instant fol with art of war adding for higher survivability when spec'd Ret. On live right now i have about 258 int with a 9.56% crit chance with spells. That i do believe will go down while leveling to 80.

Then why did you not say this in the first place? You claimed the manapool to be an issue but now you totally switch it around to the critchance of spells?

But yes, the spellcrit chance via Intellect will be lower when compared to TBC but do keep in mind that 'hit rating' now counts for both melee and spells? Our spells should not be far off from out melee crit chance (within a 5%~ margin?), and this is a HUGE difference from TBC.

On a more personal note, can you really please stop flaming people for their opinions and outlook/ideas about the class. It's rather annoying and is not constructive at all.

Thx

If you can't stand the heat? Nah, I just show respect to people who deserve it and some people obviously do not, sorry thats just me and I do not think I'm unique when it comes down to this personality trait.

When I say this I do not nessecarly mean you.

[Rawberry]

I realize you said in theory. Secondly, I was rounding to a whole, rounding up. 8.4 it is i wasn't disagreeing. you can't have 8.4 of a whole with SoC as far as I know, maybe I should have rounded down ? But what I'm seeing in the PTR is 9 W/O the glyph. Other paladins are experiencing this as well in the ptr. Regardless of what I'm seeing Blizzard could have changed the value without saying anything, or it could simply be a bug. Hard coded or not things can be changed. lets please just let this part of the topic die until blizzard says something to confirm either or other.

The PPM mechanic does allow the usage of decimal numbers.

Secondly a change to the PPM value of Seal of Command would probably be announced as it has been before - it might not have been taking into the patchnotes though, but I doubt that because a change in the PPM would have a major impact on Seal of Command.

I've been playing a ret paladin for 4 1/2 years, I have rolled the class to 70 twice both ret. I highly doubt you can make me a better paladin by explaining how PPM value works when I already know. Experience > numbers

And yet we have been discussing about the PPM mechanic / PPM on Seal of Command for two days now and you just, finally agree with me. Doesn't that mean you just learned something? And that I sparked that learning process?

So in essence, with that I made you a more knowledgeable player. Which is fine, I have been playing a Retribution Paladin for the same length of time you have, leveled two Human Paladins, seen all the classic raiding material and I learn about tiny things even to this very day.

You totally misunderstood what I was saying. I was clearly pointing out, the other classes having more ranked DPS spells and the paladin not having ranked DPS spells is a problem and made the paladin class under par in that aspect (of coarse I'm talking about trainable dps spells and NOT talents) It isn't a problem now because ap and sph is scaling these spells. If it does become a problem for blizzard that the paladin is doing to much damage with these spells, they can merely just change the % AP SPH coefficient without destroying the spell. In other words it's putting us on par, not making us op.

I don't think you pointed that out that clearly but alright

No I didn't "claim" the manapool to be an issue for wotlk. this is what i SAID

"As for mana it isn't a issue and is more or less a fix for the spec that should of been put in place when TBC was released. It doesn't make us Op it just gives us what we need to keep going with our spells when spec into our damage tree."

as for 'hit rating' and 'crit chance' I know they both effect spell and melee, come next patch, I wasn't arguing this fact, I was simply trying to say " it will go down" by how much ? I don't know, but it will so we're on the same page there.

That is not what you said, that is the conclusion of what you have said over several posts, but alright if you put it that way I cannot do anything but agree with you.

And how much would it go down by? If you have about the same gear as I do it would be around 8%.

I was referring to some of your other posts to other people, again bashing on peoples ideas Isn't constructive criticism, offering ideas and suggestions is. It's not about you Rawberry, it's not about the respect you give, its about the respect you earn, and as of yet you still haven't earned mine. We're all equal.

First of all, not everybody is equal. Thats hippie talk. Yes we are all Human, we share the same planet and resources and should all be allowed to live in peace, have a chance to prosper and all that but some people are just plain stupid and should be treated as such.

Some people have no respect for this community, they post threads without even bothering to read a Stickied thread, use the search or even look at threads with the same subject that are active at that time. And other people just seem to turn off their brain while posting. These people should not be handled with velvet gloves, what is this the sissy-support-group? Other people should tell them they are retards in the hope they learn.

Take Applegarth for example, he has been flamed by the community (I will agree, mostly by me) for several times now and when he said he would clean up his act I have been nothing but constructive and informative in regards to his questions. He acted like a moron, I flamed him, he learned from the process, the situation changed.
If I would have been all nice and gentle he would still be the same poster as he was before.

See my point?


Secondly, I'm not here to gain the respect of people. If it happens along the way of informing people that is awesome, and for me that happend. I like to think I earned the respect of almost every regular poster on the Paladin part of the forum.

So I do not have your respect, well thats fine. You may think of me as an asshole, but I hardly ever spread information that is not correct. And when I do, I'm man enough to own up and say "Hey, I was wrong"... And I'm sorry to say that I have yet to see you do so.

[BubbaJim]

The Hybrid argument is stupid.

As stated, healing/tanking/dps capabilities while not specced for them are shit. i.e. healing as ret, dpsing as prot etc.. A ret paladin is more likely to bandage than holy light themself and lose half their mana bar.. and thats if the healers are slacking.

Also, i'v never met a serious raid leader who's said "im gonna take this retadin cos he can heal as well as dps!"... or feral druid to heal.. or enhance shaman to heal etc etc.. people get their raid slot based on what they are capable of doing WELL. not what they are capable of in theory. If your raid leader suggests you take DPS-spec hybrids to heal or tank, run away from that raid because you're being led by a nutter.

Ret is a paladin's tree to DPS, it is a PURE DPS TREE. Classes like Mages/Locks/Rogues etc have THREE PURE DPS TREES, this means they can spec to decide what damage they want to do, how to get most synergy from their talent build to do high damage. Paladins get 1 option of what DPS style to do - Ret. If Ret is not competitive with other classes DPS then it's broken.

[Askan]

Like someone said "paladins gonna be nerfed a lot cuz ppl whine and after 6 months of wotlk gonna recieve some buffs" =p

[pallyzzpower]

First of all, Rawberry, most of us are grown people-and some are kids with PARENTS-and do not need you to wipe our asses for us.

Second of all, don't be a dick and say stupid people should be treated that way and flame hippies, you may single-handedly turn this thread into a flaming contest.

And Last, if some people are meant to be treated like the idiots they are, then some people should be treated like the 40 year old virgins they are. ^^

[pallyzzpower]

Do i need to bury you again?

[Vice]

OK Rawberry, do you think you are some kind of forum GOD or something? Every post i see from you is just an attack on someone followed by some smart-arse pretentious put down such as "should i bury you again"... No matter how many fucking "addendums" you put in your posts, it does not make you smart, rather portraying you as an ostentatious prick, epitomised by you upstart self proclaimed title as "King of the Juice". ALL HAIL! you are the king of idiocy, that is all.

[pallyzzpower]

OK Rawberry, do you think you are some kind of forum GOD or something? Every post i see from you is just an attack on someone followed by some smart-arse pretentious put down such as "should i bury you again"... No matter how many fucking "addendums" you put in your posts, it does not make you smart, rather portraying you as an ostentatious prick, epitomised by you upstart self proclaimed title as "King of the Juice". ALL HAIL! you are the king of idiocy, that is all.

well said