After testing out Ret Paladin at lvl 80, I say we still need buffs

[Tigercat]

Where's that proof that you're so mana-restrained, Knight? We're still waiting.

[Threats1234]

Gotta have Mana to regen mana.

Do you have to have Rage to gain rage?

Do you have to have energy to gain energy?

Do you have to have Runes to gain runes? (Maybe for Runic Power, but most Runic Power spells suck anyway)

talk all you want about runes and energy, you don't have to have mana to regen mana... you get it for free by not using it and you can drink to get it, I don't get rage for free by standing there like and I certainly don't have an item I can buy from a vendor to fill up my rage bar.

[Knighthonor]

talk all you want about runes and energy, you don't have to have mana to regen mana... you get it for free by not using it and you can drink to get it, I don't get rage for free by standing there like and I certainly don't have an item I can buy from a vendor to fill up my rage bar.

Take your warrior into Arena, or duel somebody.
Just stand there and let them hit you. Tell me if that doesnt give you rage.

[Threats1234]

Take your warrior into Arena, or duel somebody.
Just stand there and let them hit you. Tell me if that doesnt give you rage.

My warrior has been to arena, if I'm being attacked I'm taking damage and chances are being healed for it, in that you would gain mana. Also, dots don't give nearly as much rage as other types of incoming damage. Your argument wasn't about the many ways to generate rage or mana, but rather that you have to have mana to get mana, which you don't.

[yomyom]

Gotta have Mana to regen mana.

Do you have to have Rage to gain rage?

Do you have to have energy to gain energy?

Do you have to have Runes to gain runes? (Maybe for Runic Power, but most Runic Power spells suck anyway)

Mana regeneration comes when your not spamming your abilities. you also have pots, which are quite common and cheep.

You only get rage when you do damage (or get parried), or you take damage. In pvp the rage gain from taking damage is not much, and it can be quite easy for a warrior to be rage starved. Also rage pots cost a lot and are very rare. (same deal for druids I guess)

I will admit rogues have it easy as far as their resources are concerned, but rogues have their own problems outside of this.

You have 6 runes, on 10 second timers, and you have to know what rotations you want to have before combat. So that means if your anti melee rotation needs one set of runes, but you are in anti caster mode with another set of runes, and Mr pally comes up and attacks you, you will not be playing at your best.


You go OOM, you deal with it, warrior gets rage starved, they deal with it, rogue gets hunters marked or fairy fired they deal with it. Seeing a pattern?

I play a warrior, warlock, rogue and pally, and I can see why people bitch about pallys at level 70, and you might say it all evens out end, but to know that my pally can kill things faster than my warrior and rogue who are in much better gear saddens me. The implication of this is that my pally will be much quicker and easier to level up than the other two. My lock is in very good gear, which is most likely the reason it still does more than the pally.

[Zhalseran]

Energy, Rage and Mana are very different mechanics. This is coming from someone who played a Rogue for a year and a half and has switched to a Protection Paladin. I also have a level 70 warrior, and leveled a druid to 70 feral. Energy and Rage are restrictive in their own way. Rage starts empty where Mana starts full. Rage has to be generated via dealing and/or receiving damage, energy is regenerated at a static rate over time. Mana starts full, and generally relies more on using it intelligently than relying on regeneration. Whats the differance between me and a warrior tank? The warrior needs to build up rage to start his rotation, whereas I, being a mana user, start at full mana and can open up with as many abilities as I want.

I know that isn't an equal example to comparing ret and arms, or a Rogue, but the point is each power resource has it's own restrictions.

[yomyom]

Another thought, being mana drained on a pally is not the very end of you. Flash heal is damn cheep, and your melee white damage is nothing to laugh at.

Being oom on my warlock in pvp makes me useless. If I can stand still for long enough and not get attacked I can maybe steal some mana from someone, but that needs at lest some mana to start with, and if I'm lucky and at full HP with no one hitting me I can life tap. Although in saying that 12k mana is harder to drain than 5k, which brings up the point of it all works out even in the end.

[TDWP]

Take Auras off of Global Cool Down,,,,, Give them their own Global Cool Down please.

i completely agree with u on taking auras of GCD as a holy trying to switch auras for certain points of a battle can get frustrating

[Naur]

Agree with rawberry, how can you even go oom?
Have just been testing it on PTR couse my retri is still on transfer to beta.
I mean, its HARD to go even close to oom.
Interupts you get from the exo glyph and the distance closer is repentence and hammer?

Yes, i can interrupt a priest heal since they are undeads. Oh noes! they are humanoids and exorcism only works in undeads omg... Tested in beta.
BTW, people is whinning about paladins because they all think in "LOLret /point /kill /lol" but it doesn't work anymore. You can check all other classes dmg and utility and you will see that retri aren't so much overpowered than others.

[eiridan]

On my Ret Paladin in beta, I tend to put a little Holy paladin gear (One ring and/or neck) on since in doesn't gimp me all too much since I get spell power,intellect, stamina, and other valuable stats.

If you do happen to get mana burned or go OOM at all, you have Divine Plea on a short cooldown that helps immensely.

[larry botter]

a ret pally crying after what they did to your broken class..please...

[eiridan]

a ret pally crying after what they did to your broken class..please...

Checking your history, all you have been doing is whining about how broken warriors are... hypocrite.

[Rawberry]

But Warrior did not get fixed in the ways we did .

Compared to TBC the Wrath of the Lich King Retribution Paladin isn't even the same class anymore... it has become so much more viable it's almost vile.

[Rawberry]

Gotta have Mana to regen mana.

Do you have to have Rage to gain rage?

Do you have to have energy to gain energy?

Do you have to have Runes to gain runes? (Maybe for Runic Power, but most Runic Power spells suck anyway)

I can't believe you are actually disagreeing with the fact that the other classes need to manage they resources, that shows just how little you know about other classes and this game in general.

[Knighthonor]

I can't believe you are actually disagreeing with the fact that the other classes need to manage they resources, that shows just how little you know about other classes and this game in general.

I never said that.

I was just pointing out that those other classes still dont follow the old rule of "Spend X to get X"

thats the same thing that made Illumination bad post nerf.

[Rawberry]

Good enough, you didn't say that : but as someone said before, you cannot compare the mechanics as they all have their own pros and cons.

[Karpalo]

Well let`s take rogues here as a example. If i play rogue i have infinite amount of energy overtime. But Then we compare weaknesses of energy to lets say mana. If i dishout my "full nuke" lets say in mutispec, that means that i got no kick no ks or nothing that uses energy until i have refilled enought energy to do what ever i need to do. Then take other example which would be hunters this time. Hunter sees snared target which he wants to nuke and he can pretty much dishout a skill on every gcd cause even on full nuke it usually takes around a minute or more to get oom.

Every resource mechanics got their up`s and downs. Mana users are ment to go oom sooner or later and rage users are ment to get rage starved if they can`t hit or won`t get hit. Energy is stuck to it`s fixed regen rate working very similar way as DK runes do work.

[yomyom]

I never said that.

I was just pointing out that those other classes still dont follow the old rule of "Spend X to get X"

thats the same thing that made Illumination bad post nerf.

wrong, warlocks have to spend mana to use mana drain. Or they have to spend life to get mana, which as good as it sounds can be very dangerous. There have been many times where I would rather an evocation like ability, because I don't have the HP to spare to top up my mana. BUT in saying that each ability has its own uses, and at the end of the day the mage and spriest also in the raid manage to keep some dps and mana up so something must be working right?

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Energy, Rage and Mana are very different mechanics. This is coming from someone who played a Rogue for a year and a half and has switched to a Protection Paladin. I also have a level 70 warrior, and leveled a druid to 70 feral. Energy and Rage are restrictive in their own way. Rage starts empty where Mana starts full. Rage has to be generated via dealing and/or receiving damage, energy is regenerated at a static rate over time. Mana starts full, and generally relies more on using it intelligently than relying on regeneration. Whats the differance between me and a warrior tank? The warrior needs to build up rage to start his rotation, whereas I, being a mana user, start at full mana and can open up with as many abilities as I want.

I know that isn't an equal example to comparing ret and arms, or a Rogue, but the point is each power resource has it's own restrictions.

Well put.

The different resource mechanics are restrictive in different ways to the same effect:

Mana users can blow everything at once, but by not pacing themselves, they go OOM and become useless, it's best to find the most cost-effective balance of abilities and mana usage. Unlike Rage or Energy, regeneration is quite slow, potions included.

Energy users are similar to mana users, they can blow it all at once, but their resource is extremely limited in capacity, but regenerates quickly, so they have to pace themselves so that their regeneration keeps the supply high enough for them to keep going at a cost-effective balance, very similar to mana user's need to pace themselves.

Rage is like energy, limited in capacity, but unlike energy or mana, they have to be active to keep it regenerating, instead of inactive. In this way, Warriors dont have to pace themselves the way Energy or mana users have to, but in order to make the most effective use of cooldowns, they also will pace themselves at a cost-effective rate to enable the greatest effect.

What they have done, in effect, to Ret Paladins, is turned their mana pool into a new system that functions partly like Rage and partly like Energy, yet partly like mana. Just like a mana user they can slug a potion to refill, or drink, and they start the fight full, yet like an energy/rage user, after only a few abilities, they are bone dry. unlike Energy, though, it will not just grow back, they have to be active with Judgement the same way a Warrior has to be active with either auto-attacks or by taking damage (Or Bloodrage/Berserker Rage, but I mentioned cooldowns already) and this gives them enough mana to perform a paced rotation until they can get enough mana, via Judgement, to do it again.

That's partly what makes the T7 4 piece set bonus so absurdly powerful, it's not just more frequent Judgements, it means you can increase the pace of your whole rotation by gain of extra mana. At least in theory, as nobody likely has that bonus yet.

[Mysmere]

i'm still wondering who the original poster is being kited by

if you work at it, in combat you can have 7 magics on you (libram procs included )

mages remove 1 at a time -30% stoicism. you can reapply most of these as theyre taken off (this may be trickier with less mana) you have to get severely unlucky to lose hof before you catch and beat them in the face

shammies remove 2 at a time, this is more annoying. however, they do not apply horendous amounts of debuffs on you. i have cleanse at 1, i spam it <--- solution

priests remove 2. but who cares? they can't kite. again, cleanse spam. trinket on high alert for their fear.

hunters remove one, and its on a cd. pre wotlk this was a problem with 2-3 magics on at a time. not anymore

warriors try and smack you in the face?
rogues in the back?

again, start the fight on a mount, and with a pvp trinket. i wonder who you're losing to.
no flames this time