Prot Build - Impale Really worth the threat?

[Glyph]

I've been going over it on paper and such, not testing (not in beta or on ptr) but I'm starting to think impale may not be worth getting.

I'm assuming the impale build is 12/8/51 with the current talent build.

I'm almost convinced you can take the 5 points out of arms and get imp revenge for 20% more damage/threat and get puncture to throw out dev more often.

But here's my kicker, is HS with the higher crit coupled with impale going to be pulling more threat than dev?

So question is, burning the points to get impale worth losing out in a few more prot points? Threat wise that is.

[player404]

It's not going to do more threat than devastate, but think on endless-rage situations, bosses for example where you use both devastate and heroic strike.
You will crit like crazy and impale then becomes very useful.

However, if your gear is good enough, you shouldn't have any threat problems whatsoever without impale, because Blizzard doesn't design encounters for impale-specced warrior tanks.

I believe impale will rather become more useful for the lesser-equipped tanks, and also should greatly help the better equipped, though still FAR from mandatory.

[niallghas]

As a tank who has experimented with improved revenge, it has a serious downside.

Tanks do NOT want to stun their source of rage.

Sure, a caster who is about to cast a spell, or a runner about to bolt (if you are not fast on using hamstring or execute dancing)...maybe..but we have Concussion Blow for that.

True, a warrior could hold off using revenge until they have a rage glut, but if you are NOT using an ability, then why are you putting points into it.

This is a similar reason raiding shadow priests and mages do not want the stun ability in their spells, and tanks ask rogues to NOT stun targets while they are BUILDING threat.

[Tigercat]

Show me a build with Impale, and I'll be glad to explain why you're giving up too much elsewhere to get it.

[Glyph]

This I think would be standard impale build 12/8/51. And like I said in original post I'm looking for the threat output not the overall survival of the build. Hence why I'm starting to convince myself that imp revenge and puncture may be better than going into impale. So if you have some sound arguments and such I'd love to hear them.

[pinkstrider]

Bosses cant be stunned so basicly all it does is make solo/pvp easier (The stun that is) imp revenge is nice next patch.
not going for impale myself, if i tank something that has to be CC'd and i make it bleed its fucked

[Tigercat]

This I think would be standard impale build 12/8/51. And like I said in original post I'm looking for the threat output not the overall survival of the build. Hence why I'm starting to convince myself that imp revenge and puncture may be better than going into impale. So if you have some sound arguments and such I'd love to hear them.

Vigilance alone is worth more threat than Impale if Blizzard can ever implement the threat transfer portion. Also, Puncture > Imp Charge, so the four points in tiers 2 and 3 of arms fit nicely into protection.

[GT4]

As a tank who has experimented with improved revenge, it has a serious downside.

Tanks do NOT want to stun their source of rage.

Sure, a caster who is about to cast a spell, or a runner about to bolt (if you are not fast on using hamstring or execute dancing)...maybe..but we have Concussion Blow for that.

True, a warrior could hold off using revenge until they have a rage glut, but if you are NOT using an ability, then why are you putting points into it.

This is a similar reason raiding shadow priests and mages do not want the stun ability in their spells, and tanks ask rogues to NOT stun targets while they are BUILDING threat.

If you have problems tanking stunned targets in a coordinated group in WotLK you're seriously doing something wrong, you get enough rage now even when one mob is stunned.

[shunuro]

I've been going over it on paper and such, not testing (not in beta or on ptr) but I'm starting to think impale may not be worth getting.

I'm assuming the impale build is 12/8/51 with the current talent build.

I'm almost convinced you can take the 5 points out of arms and get imp revenge for 20% more damage/threat and get puncture to throw out dev more often.

But here's my kicker, is HS with the higher crit coupled with impale going to be pulling more threat than dev?

So question is, burning the points to get impale worth losing out in a few more prot points? Threat wise that is.

go with this build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

yes i know no points in dodge and lowering rage costs but because you'll get hit a little more often it will help maintian rage flow . and still pick up every important ability in prot

[Specs1832]

go with this build
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

yes i know no points in dodge and lowering rage costs but because you'll get hit a little more often it will help maintian rage flow . and still pick up every important ability in prot

No wai, he's asking if an impale build is worth doing and it's not.

I'm not completely set yet but I'm looking at something along the lines of

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

[Tinc]

Impale seems ok if you end up with a ton of crit. If you hate math, just skip to the bottom now. :P

If anyone does care for math....

Assume r crit rate (in decimal form), and y swings and you don't spec into impale and cruelty (you have full points in one or the other, not both).
Then, # of crits with impale spec = yr
# of crits with cruelty spec = y(r+0.5)

Similarly, # of non crits with impale = y(1-r)
# of non crits with cruelty = y(1-(r+.05))

Total damage with impale (TDI): 220% crit bonus so,
2.2(yr) + y(1-r)

Total damage with cruelty (TDC): 200% crit bonus so,
2y(r+.05) + y(1-(r+.05))

So say you want to know when total damage with impale is greater than (>) total damage with cruelty in terms of your crit rate.

TDI > TDC
2.2(yr) + y(1-r) > 2y(r+.05) + y(1-(r+.05))
y[2.2r + 1 - r] > y[2r + 0.1 +.95 -r]
1.2r + 1 > r + 1.05
1.2r > r + .05
1.2r - r > .05
r(1.2 -1) > .05
r > .05/.2
r > 0.25

So basically if you have over 25% crit buffed without cruelty, then spec'ing impale is going to do more damage for you. If you have less than 25% crit buffed without cruelty, then spec'ing cruelty should give you more damage output (threat output). This is assuming you have a pretty standard point distribution in prot (you don't skip incite, critical block, sword and board).

Its seems to me that warriors should be able to get right at (or above) 25% crit on the abilities that have talents that boost their crit (i.e shield slam, devastate, heroic strike). 15% from prot tree talents, 5% base crit, 5% from LoTP, Rampage, or other crit buffs from your raid . So basically if you're in a raid you're gonna be right on the threshold of the Impale>Cruelty damage threshold.

I think my tendency would be to just go ahead with cruelty. You wont always be raid buffed, and having an extra 5% crit on auto attack never hurt anything. Also, going without impale leaves you with a few more talent points that you can throw into prot for more survivability, utility, filling out puncture, etc. I don't think having impale would severely gimp your threat by any means, nor is it a bad talent spec. I think the decision is gonna come down to what prot talents you think are dispensable in order to get impale.

[Glyph]

No offense but what post are you responding to? Noone is saying get impale without cruelty. The question is whether or not impale is worth losing 4-5 prot talent points to get. Good post although you unfortunately targeted the wrong question

[Tinc]

No offense but what post are you responding to? Noone is saying get impale without cruelty. The question is whether or not impale is worth losing 4-5 prot talent points to get. Good post although you unfortunately targeted the wrong question

Yeah that's my bad, I see now the OP was looking at a 12/8/51, build, which I thought was 12/3/56 when I glazed over it. An oversight on my part, so all the people wondering if they should take impale or cruelty can look at my post, so not all is lost. Thanks Glyph :P Getting back to the OP's question, to me, it seems like you'd give up 3 points in puncture and 1 in vigilance to get pick up impale, using the build below.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

Opinions on whether vigilance is useful or not vary, but to me it would only matter if only 1 dps out of your entire raid is gonna be held back by your threat generation. If multiple dps are riding you on the threat meter, then your threat generation isn't high enough, so you should probably have impale over vigilance anyway ;D. Losing points in puncture could be a huge problem if it's wreaking havoc on your rage. I think puncture is a really nice talent, but if you have enough rage to spam devastate with the 3 extra rage cost and still complete your rotation, having impale wins out there too.

Tigercat said if you use a 12/8/51 build then you're losing too much in prot, I'd like to know what talents in prot you think are completely mandatory that I am missing in the build I linked above and why.

Edit: for spelling/grammar

[Tigercat]

Could have sworn I already answered that exact question...

Anyway: If Blizzard can ever implement the 10% threat transfer portion of Vigilance, that point alone will yield more threat than impale. Combine that with much higher rage efficiency via Puncture, and the near worthlessness of Improved Charge, and the choice seems pretty clear.

Lose Impale and Imp Charge, get Vigilance and Puncture. Depending on the situation, you could go 1/3 Puncture and put the other two points in another more situational talent, such as Improved Disarm, Spell Reflect, or possibly Improved Disciplines.

[Tinc]

Anyway: If Blizzard can ever implement the 10% threat transfer portion of Vigilance, that point alone will yield more threat than impale. Combine that with much higher rage efficiency via Puncture, and the near worthlessness of Improved Charge, and the choice seems pretty clear.

I don't think Blizzard is ever gonna implement the threat transfer portion of Vigilance. If they do, then I completely agree with your viewpoint, otherwise I think a 12/8/51 build would work just fine.

[Tigercat]

I could *work* for a threat build, but it has lower utility and survivability. Just gotta wait and see how the numbers work out.

[shunuro]

No wai, he's asking if an impale build is worth doing and it's not.

I'm not completely set yet but I'm looking at something along the lines of

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...00000000000000

damn you got alot of wasted points in your build "focused rage, " "punture," missing point in improved desplines and missing improved revenge and improved disarmed . those three abilities are huge and rage is not going to be an issue ..... and if rage becomes an issue take points out of dodge ..... need to be hit to generate rage . but this will not be an issue till we reach end game content agian .



now back to the question at hand impale is worth it for thunderslap alone ....... w/ glyph you can hit up to 8 targets the additional damage you can hit up to 8 targets add up quick ..... and the exta dps will help hold aggro on everything including damage shield another thing worth mentioning putting points in rend over imp heroic should be mentioned ....rage is not going to be an issue and rend should be up on all tanked targets ... rend has been buff alot 250 + per tick dont waste your added dps that could be missing ( additional aggro aswell )