New Crusader Strike

[Annaconda]

Hi al

I have been a pally since i started playing wow when TBC just was launched.
But now i got a mage which i lvl because i didn't get invites to group because they didn't want ret pally.
But the new changes made me and proberly a lot of other pally's really happy. But what still sucks a bit is that our PvE dps is still not good enough (at least thats what i heard from buddy who is in beta).
Thats why i got a idee to fix our damage output and also our CS which isn't worth the 41 point anymore.

1)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage it lets you use hammer of wrath even if targets has more then 20 procent health. This effect last for 15 seconds.
this will let you do some more dps with the bosses, but proberly needs the cooldown of hammer of wrath reduced to be a nice improvement

2)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage, the target is treated as a undead(or demon) for the next 4 seconds.
This allows you to used the 3 attacks which we have who are limited to undead and demons only.

3)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage, the target takes 5 procent more holy damage from you, this effect stacks 5 times and last 18 seconds.
This effect could be less if its OP and also this effect works on your attacks so this is not a group debuff.

My english is not that great so i am sorry for that, its also my first post so please be kind :P.

[GuuD]

i still dont see how an extra attack that does damage +10% is bad. Damage and mechanic wise(minus debuff) it is basically the same as MS. How is that bad?

You said it. Minus debuff

[Melanctha]

2)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage, the target is treated as a undead(or demon) for the next 4 seconds.
This allows you to used the 3 attacks which we have who are limited to undead and demons only.

im actually quite happy with the way paladins are going, and although ive got no beta access, im not breaking a sweat over paly dps. so i'd be fine with crus' strike staying as it is.

but that second idea does sound pretty badass

[Underbar]

Ok, give wars a bubble and u can have MS, deal?

Yes plz !! i would gladly let them have buble (remember once evry 5 min, can be massdispelled) if i could have MS.

Edit: I forgot, they cant use this within 1 min after they used Deathwish.

[Munk]

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe they made hammer of wrath instant cast and available from 30% now. Ill have to check with the latest build but I seem to remember reading some blue update stating that.

CS isnt too weak and TBPH even in live in t6 (BT) content with only a malgamage of t4, Brutal gloves, mh shoulders-and-wrists, za and badge gear (not even fully maxed out) I was able to do 1600 dps on bosses with the proper group make up. If blizzzard has indeed buffed ret (which it seems they have) I do not see the need to make CS any more powerful.

What you have to understand is that blizzard can give us tool after tool after tool and some people cry foul that we need more and more attacks at our disposal but in truth you only have so many gcd's and being effective dps isnt about who can spam the most attacks; its who can spam the RIGHT attacks in the CORRECT rotation to allow for mana conservation to last the fight, and to yield the highest dps. If you gear properly you'll find things like excorcism doing a very very small portion of your dps in fact light enough that if it messes with your auto swing/cs/judge rotation its probably not even worth putting up.

Skill will ALWAYS triumph over a buffet of "op" abilities.

If blizzard is indeed making it so in their charts I'll be able to do "a couple hundred less dps than "pures"..." Im darn happy with that because even on live where I should have been ~30% less knowing my class allowed me to overcome classes and specs that rightfully should have put me in the dirt.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I think CS needs something with a flavor to make the ability palatable, but it should NOT amount to more damage, we've got enough of that to work with.

I'd say cause it to spread the effects of any Judgement afflicting the target to all enemies within 10 yards.

Not a big deal, but still incredibly useful.

[Munk]

TBPH,

I think blizzard should skip the idea of healers having to refresh judgements and revert CS back to the ability to refresh judgements. I know that 1 gcd over the course of 2 minutes isnt that big of a deal but i've seen tanks go down in less time than that. I just feel it sends the wrong messege to raiders to say, have your (tank) healers do something OTHER than heal the tank. Having CS strike refresh judgements also gives raid leaders one more reason to bring at least one ret pally to a raid. It adds something completely benign(sp?) to our utility that benefits the raid as a whole.

[Rawberry]

Edit: I forgot, they cant use this within 1 min after they used Deathwish.

3 minutes .

[Underbar]

Yea but i thought now when we dont have to wait even 1 min we could let them have 1 minute as we had the entire BC. We are paladins, not selfish rogues, druids or mages.

[Kryostasys]

TBPH,

I think blizzard should skip the idea of healers having to refresh judgements and revert CS back to the ability to refresh judgements. I know that 1 gcd over the course of 2 minutes isnt that big of a deal but i've seen tanks go down in less time than that. I just feel it sends the wrong messege to raiders to say, have your (tank) healers do something OTHER than heal the tank. Having CS strike refresh judgements also gives raid leaders one more reason to bring at least one ret pally to a raid. It adds something completely benign(sp?) to our utility that benefits the raid as a whole.

And forgo 10% haste? NO WAI.

CS Works well enough. If it's buffed with anything that gives more damage potency, then other areas of Ret DPS need to be toned down. So you're basically shifting buffed elements of one area of the spec to another.

It's fine. Leave it be.

[Munk]

Kryos,

Where did I say anything about giving it more dmg? In fact if you read my previous post in this thread you will see that Im more than content with the dmg it is currently dealing. I simply think that 10% haste to justify the use of a gcd is wrong because thats still 1.4 seconds your not focusing your heal to your tank.

Before I hung up my t6 heals I held the mantra that "If your not healing, your doing something wrong". In a raid, someone, somewhere, sometime needs a heal. If everyone just took a few seconds here or there to do other things... well thats how people die. It might be there fault for putting themself in a situation that makes them need heals but as a healer its your job to heal them reguardless.

I dont see a problem with leaving 10% haste even if retadins can refresh judgements... call it class synergy, nothing wrong with it.

[Lexan]

i've noticed on the ptr and in live now actually, i might be wrong, that crusader strike got buffed to 115% to 116%, or am i just crazy wrong and can't read, if i'm right thats 5% more weapon dmg thats a pretty decent buff, yes i would like another effect but it's pretty good now since it'll scale great at lv 80.

[Montoya]

How... would that have gone live?

[Ulfhedinn]

S3/S4 gloves make CS 116%.

[Resy]

Crusader Strike : An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage and burns 10-15% of your targets base mana.

Problem solved

[Munk]

Crusader Strike : An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage and burns 10-15% of your targets base mana.

Problem solved

Nope, no way is that possibly over powered... no way at all..... nope not op.

[olicon]

TBPH,

I think blizzard should skip the idea of healers having to refresh judgements and revert CS back to the ability to refresh judgements. I know that 1 gcd over the course of 2 minutes isnt that big of a deal but i've seen tanks go down in less time than that. I just feel it sends the wrong messege to raiders to say, have your (tank) healers do something OTHER than heal the tank. Having CS strike refresh judgements also gives raid leaders one more reason to bring at least one ret pally to a raid. It adds something completely benign(sp?) to our utility that benefits the raid as a whole.

Holy Pally do get 10% haste from refreshing their own judgment, so I think they by all means should.
To OP: I like the idea that CS makes the target count as undead/demon. It could very quickly be overpowered, but it sounds very cool. Besides, Exorcism/etc must be collecting dust for most people anyway.

[Wonger13]

Hi al

I have been a pally since i started playing wow when TBC just was launched.
But now i got a mage which i lvl because i didn't get invites to group because they didn't want ret pally.
But the new changes made me and proberly a lot of other pally's really happy. But what still sucks a bit is that our PvE dps is still not good enough (at least thats what i heard from buddy who is in beta).
Thats why i got a idee to fix our damage output and also our CS which isn't worth the 41 point anymore.

1)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage it lets you use hammer of wrath even if targets has more then 20 procent health. This effect last for 15 seconds.
this will let you do some more dps with the bosses, but proberly needs the cooldown of hammer of wrath reduced to be a nice improvement

2)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage, the target is treated as a undead(or demon) for the next 4 seconds.
This allows you to used the 3 attacks which we have who are limited to undead and demons only.

3)
Crusader strike does 110 procent weapondamage, in additione to its normal damage, the target takes 5 procent more holy damage from you, this effect stacks 5 times and last 18 seconds.
This effect could be less if its OP and also this effect works on your attacks so this is not a group debuff.

My english is not that great so i am sorry for that, its also my first post so please be kind :P.

3rd option i like. Some mobs(forget where) have crusader strike and it gives a debuff where you take more holy damage

[Arr0w]

me like no.2

[exphius]

Ahh, Good ole CS is a rather nice talent to have in your arsenal and i dont see anything wrong with it. The only thing i will give you credit on is the fact that is kinda lack-lustered. Most of our talents are improving cooldowns, debuff and buff durations, chances to miss/parry/dodge/resist <--(not all of them but just an example) etc. But cs is just a single point with nothing in a way of improvements in anyway.

It would be nice to see something tacked on to it, even if whatever that would be tacked on sucked. Atleast it wouldnt be so lack-lustered. Hell I would like to still see it refreshing judgements so holy/prot pallies dont have to worry out replying theres all the time.