Now I understand why pures hate hybrids

[Samhein]

Pures don't hate hybrids, they hate what blizzard has done to appease the whiney masses that play hybrids. Hybrids have their roles: They are there to fill a hole that can't be filled by a pure class. They're the gray area. They can perform multiple job roles relatively easily. The penalty for that versatility is they can't do any one role well.

That didn't sit well with them, so they wanted more. Shamans want to DPS like rogues and mages. Druids want to tank and heal like warriors and priests. Paladins want to heal like a priest, tank like a warrior, and dps like a rogue. Sorry, something has to give. The pures are being eclipsed by hybrids that can do 1 job extremely well, but at the same time provide a secondary ( and maybe even a tertiary ) role at diminished capacity.

When a druid can dps like a mage, pop a heal when needs be, and go into bear when he pulls aggro and survive until the tank gets aggro, why bring the mage? The mage has been turned into a vending machine.

When a ret pally can bring rogue dps ( and they will in 3.0 ), slap on a shield and tank if needs be, can buff, manage threat, etc. Why bring a rogue or dps warrior?

When a shaman can dps better than a mage, can be about equal to a rogue, and can heal better than a priest, and offer raid wide buffs at the same time. why bring a mage, rogue, or priest?

You see what i'm getting at. Hybrids have gained so much they can easily take the job of several other classes. In most cases they may not do them as efficiently, but in some they can do them better.

[Ebb]

I dont raid on my prot pally, but i have raided on my prot warrior since december 2004. Do people actually still use BoSalvation? I know when i 5man on my pally i never buff it. I find pally tanks have insane threat and its a non-issue, and as for my warrior in a raid, salvation is nice, but even in BT your dps generally should know by now just how much they can push the limits and so long as your tanks dont suck you will still have about 30% of the enrage timer left.

[Morden]

When a druid can dps like a mage, pop a heal when needs be, and go into bear when he pulls aggro and survive until the tank gets aggro, why bring the mage? The mage has been turned into a vending machine.

Agree with that tbh, Dire Bear should be a talented ability, so non Tank specced druids should have to settle with normal Bear form.

When a ret pally can bring rogue dps ( and they will in 3.0 ), slap on a shield and tank if needs be, can buff, manage threat, etc. Why bring a rogue or dps warrior?

Ret on PTR are balanced around level 80, they will not out dps a rogue at 80, though they might do now, but the thing is rogues scale a lot better, and will continue to scale all the way to 80, whilst Paladins will not scale as well on the climb to 80. Also a ret paladin slapping on a sheild and tanking, might survive for a 5man boss if lucky, but a ret with a sheild will not likely last 15seconds on trash in a raid, let alone a raid boss

When a shaman can dps better than a mage, can be about equal to a rogue, and can heal better than a priest, and offer raid wide buffs at the same time. why bring a mage, rogue, or priest?

Because they have to be specced to do it, and no from what I have seen on beta, mages and rogues still beat them on raids, just by not as much of a margine as they currently do.

You see what i'm getting at. Hybrids have gained so much they can easily take the job of several other classes. In most cases they may not do them as efficiently, but in some they can do them better.

I agree with you on this bit, but what you need to remember, is that they can do what they are specced for. This whole Hybrid class stuff is nonsense, The only time it would be unfair is if a Hybrid-Spec allowed them to do more than 1 thing well. I.e a resto druid being able to tank at the same time. an Ele shammy being able to heal as well as a Holy Priest. A Ret Paladin being able to out tank a Protection Warrior.


People should not be penalised for choosing a spec which they enjoy playing. What makes your class so special that another class specced to do the same should not be able to match it or come close to it? If they have put 61 points into dps talents, then they should be able to compete with a so called pure class that has 61 points in dps talents.

Just because they can go and pay 50g and respec to fill a different role doesnt mean they can do so on the fly. However I agree this will be a big big problem when they implement duel specs, but I suspect they will have limitations on that such as a hefty cooldown or parameters which stop it being used on the fly before a boss or something.


The sky is not falling, you will still get raid slots, all it means is that you will not be carrying the Shadow Priests, Retribution Paladins, Feral/Balance Druids as much as you currently do, and while this is not good for people who love topping damage meters by a big margine, it is very good for raid leaders who can now see whether someone is actualling pulling there weight or not.

[fl4shi]

Pures don't hate hybrids, they hate what blizzard has done to appease the whiney masses that play hybrids. Hybrids have their roles: They are there to fill a hole that can't be filled by a pure class. They're the gray area. They can perform multiple job roles relatively easily. The penalty for that versatility is they can't do any one role well.

That didn't sit well with them, so they wanted more. Shamans want to DPS like rogues and mages. Druids want to tank and heal like warriors and priests. Paladins want to heal like a priest, tank like a warrior, and dps like a rogue. Sorry, something has to give. The pures are being eclipsed by hybrids that can do 1 job extremely well, but at the same time provide a secondary ( and maybe even a tertiary ) role at diminished capacity.

When a druid can dps like a mage, pop a heal when needs be, and go into bear when he pulls aggro and survive until the tank gets aggro, why bring the mage? The mage has been turned into a vending machine.

When a ret pally can bring rogue dps ( and they will in 3.0 ), slap on a shield and tank if needs be, can buff, manage threat, etc. Why bring a rogue or dps warrior?

When a shaman can dps better than a mage, can be about equal to a rogue, and can heal better than a priest, and offer raid wide buffs at the same time. why bring a mage, rogue, or priest?

You see what i'm getting at. Hybrids have gained so much they can easily take the job of several other classes. In most cases they may not do them as efficiently, but in some they can do them better.

and thats what happened in bc

now almost every class brings a buff
many classes bring the same buff
so when u decide which group u want u dont have to "i want moonkin 5% crit" u can also "or elemental also 5%".. dont forget manareg "caster/shadow" no i prefer "melee/ret"
u see what blizz is getting at?

and wtf..
why take the mage when the elemental "can" also heal if needed
first: if ur healers are "good" the ele wont have to
second: if ur mage is good so is his dps

regarding palas
ofc the pala can offtank
but thats also something a off-warri / feral / dk can do
ur reasoning "a ret can offtank why take a off-warrior/rogue" is stupid
u see: "a off-warrior can offtank why take a ret/rogue"

the point is everyone should be able to play the class he likes the most and be able to do the job he is intended to do just as good as any other class
ONLY the skill should decide.. not the class
and thats exactly what blizz wants
the way for it to work? hybrids dps needs to be buffed so stop whining
u only played rogue/mage/wl/hunter cuz they were dps 1-4?
not because u had the most fun playing that class?
ur just stupid.. lame stupid

[Taryble]

This is on the "BoSalv" disappearance and HoSalv in the beta/ptr.

Threat generation by tanks at level 70, doing the same rotations in the same gear, is up by some absurd percentage. Well over the 30% that BoSalv gave the illusion of. A friend of mine (prot warrior) commented that on the beta, even at level 70, he was doing something like 60% more TPS.

I'll put it this way. I talented my shadow priest OUT of the threat reduction talent in the shadow tree (25% threat reduction). I went balls-to-the-wall insane on a 5-man boss in a heroic on the ptr. I couldn't get close enough on threat generation to get the "90%" warning from my threatmeter or the built-in threatmeter.

I _HAVE_ pulled threat, as a SPriest, with that talent and BoSalv, from both warrior and pally tanks on Live. This should tell you something (other than I'm slow to stop DPS on Live on my SP *laugh*).

[Grimgore]

My take on the situation (at least for dps roles):

Whether you want to admit it or not, the most commonly accepted 'scorecard' to see how well you did in a fight is the DPS meter. People don't look at a hybrid who did 30% less damage than a pure class and say 'wow.. look at his dps... when you take into account how his buffs/auras/whatever boosted the dps of the pure classes in the raid, he did XXX raid-wide dps!' And for Blizzard to tune dps-race fights, it's detrimental to a hybrid having a raid slot. Groups will take one of each hybrid class, and fill the rest with the high-dps 'pure' classes. And that makes sense to do that. If you need to do a certain amount of dps before a boss enrages or something, you want to get optimal dps out of your group. And towards the end of raid content when everyone has their optimal gear, most hybrids have fallen so far behind the pures in dps that the buffs they bring to the pures in the raid don't counterbalance the loss of dps you'd see from excluding a pure class.

You might want a couple hybrids that have incredibly strong buffs, but otherwise there isn't much reason to not just stack the raid full of pure dps classes. So as a hybrid, even if you do happen to be lucky enough to be one of the folks that gets brought along to buff the rest of the raids damage, you're still going to feel like you're holding back progression because you were doing so much less dps then the other dps classes. If you barely missed an enrage timer and wiped, you're going to feel like it's your fault b/c no matter WHAT you do, you just can't push out the kind of dps that is required in those types of tuned raid fights. The mechanics just aren't there. So you feel gimpy, and no one wants to feel like a burden on the raid.

So to address these issues, Bliz is boosting hybrids dps and giving the pure classes more utility to even it out somewhat. If they do their job right, the dps classes, both pures and hybrids, should be extremely competitive with each other assuming the person is skilled. If hybrids are just steamrolling skilled pures dps numbers while using a less-than-optimal build/spec/rotation, then Blizzard should adjust hybrid dps accordingly. As it is now though, a poorly played pure spec can outdps a perfectly played hybrid spec. There's just something wrong about that. If you maintain a perfect attack rotation, you should outdps a poorly played or average played person, regardless of what other stuff you bring to the raid.

While we (hybrids) enjoy being able to buff up our teammates and contribute to better raid-wide dps, we aren't jumping up and down excited about it. If we perform well in a dps role, we want the dps meters to reflect that. Utility is hard to pin-point in a raid, while dps charts are looked at as 'scorecards.' We'd like in on that action too. I'm of the opinion that a perfectly played pure dps class should out-dps a perfectly played hybrid class (not by much though) but I'm tired of coming in behind bad players just because of my class limitations. If I (as a druid) shift out mid-fight and innervate or battle rez someone, ok... I can understand why my dps is now lower than the pures. But I contributed to the success of the raid, so I can swallow that. But if I'm just dpsing, maintaining a perfect rotation, and my utility isn't utilized b/c it just wasn't needed that fight, what's the justification for doing 1/2 to 2/3rd of a pures dps?

And yes, while hybrids CAN respec to a different role, I don't think most of us really want to. I decided when I made my druid that I wanted to be feral. I don't have any interest in healing or in ranged dps. It just doesn't seem fair that those of us in dps roles aren't putting out the dps numbers. And before pure specs say 'well, you should have just rolled a pure dps spec then'... if we all did that than there wouldn't be any buffs for anyone. You'd have a raid full of pures doing poor damage because all the hybrids rerolled.

Damage meters = scorecard for most players. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is. And if we don't all have equal shots at rocking the top of the chart when playing skillfully, some people are always going to feel like third wheels. And that's just not fun.

[Elektrik]

Oh, neat. According to this thread, priests aren't hybrids anymore!

That means that my shadow priest is a pure dps class now, and since I bring basically 0 unique raid buffs to the table, I should do warlock damage. Finally!

[necroguy]

Blessing of salvation havent been nerfed nor buffed, it has been adjusted!

WHY? because they buffed the tanks aggro, making it not necesairy to buff BoS anymore. Tho if a dpser still manages to gain aggro, you just drop it by using HoS or vigilance, making the game more reaction based and more multitasker (makes it harder for noobs to get into a decent guild so be happy)!

NO nerf, no buff, just simply adjusted

[Samhein]

and thats what happened in bc

now almost every class brings a buff
many classes bring the same buff
so when u decide which group u want u dont have to "i want moonkin 5% crit" u can also "or elemental also 5%".. dont forget manareg "caster/shadow" no i prefer "melee/ret"
u see what blizz is getting at?

And that's part of the problem. They've homogenized so many class abilities that nobody can really stand out.

and wtf..
why take the mage when the elemental "can" also heal if needed
first: if ur healers are "good" the ele wont have to
second: if ur mage is good so is his dps

There are times when healers get knocked out of the fight. Maybe they got killed in the bloodboil fight, maybe they got tombed like in the tidewalker fight, maybe they got ghosted like in the gorefiend fight, etc, etc. There are tons of ways where a healer can get knocked out of the fight.

My point with mages, is the shaman can put out a LOT of damage that is on par or riding the coattails of the mage. However, not only does he put out respectable damage, he does it while buffing the group (soon to be raid), with the ability heal himself or others as the need arises. That level of utility supersedes the pure damage output a mage has.

regarding palas
ofc the pala can offtank
but thats also something a off-warri / feral / dk can do
ur reasoning "a ret can offtank why take a off-warrior/rogue" is stupid
u see: "a off-warrior can offtank why take a ret/rogue"

Again, I'm talking about clinch situations, the OT is dead, an extra mob spawns, whatever. Ret has the OPTION of slapping on a shield and tanking it. He has the OPTION to offheal as the need arises. With some of the new ret abilities popping instant casts FoL's it becomes even more feasible.

the point is everyone should be able to play the class he likes the most and be able to do the job he is intended to do just as good as any other class
ONLY the skill should decide.. not the class
and thats exactly what blizz wants
the way for it to work? hybrids dps needs to be buffed so stop whining
u only played rogue/mage/wl/hunter cuz they were dps 1-4?
not because u had the most fun playing that class?
ur just stupid.. lame stupid

Ad Hominem attacks are for those who lack the ability to make a general point. Stop using them.

I agree, people should play classes they enjoy. That's not the point. The point is that Hybrids want to be the best at everything. Just because they have to spec to become the best doesn't take away from their other abilities. Those other abilities are just as important as the damage meters, in some cases, more so.

Hybrids did NOT need to be buffed, they needed some tweaking, that was all. Their damage was fine, it was their efficiency that was weak.

For the record, yes my main is a rogue. It was the first character I ever created. I enjoy it. However, I also have a prot pally that i REALLY enjoy and will probably try and focus more on him in the expansion. I've had one of just about everything, some I detested playing, some i enjoyed.

[DoubleJ]

Pures don't hate hybrids, they hate what blizzard has done to appease the whiney masses that play hybrids. Hybrids have their roles: They are there to fill a hole that can't be filled by a pure class. They're the gray area. They can perform multiple job roles relatively easily. The penalty for that versatility is they can't do any one role well.

That didn't sit well with them, so they wanted more. Shamans want to DPS like rogues and mages. Druids want to tank and heal like warriors and priests. Paladins want to heal like a priest, tank like a warrior, and dps like a rogue. Sorry, something has to give. The pures are being eclipsed by hybrids that can do 1 job extremely well, but at the same time provide a secondary ( and maybe even a tertiary ) role at diminished capacity.

When a druid can dps like a mage, pop a heal when needs be, and go into bear when he pulls aggro and survive until the tank gets aggro, why bring the mage? The mage has been turned into a vending machine.

When a ret pally can bring rogue dps ( and they will in 3.0 ), slap on a shield and tank if needs be, can buff, manage threat, etc. Why bring a rogue or dps warrior?

When a shaman can dps better than a mage, can be about equal to a rogue, and can heal better than a priest, and offer raid wide buffs at the same time. why bring a mage, rogue, or priest?

You see what i'm getting at. Hybrids have gained so much they can easily take the job of several other classes. In most cases they may not do them as efficiently, but in some they can do them better.

They way you say this sounds like they can do everything as well as every other class all at the same time... hardly reality. With WoLK it's even more divided in that a druid will likely choose a particular spec and talent deep into it accordingly making the other abilities' potential not close to a 'pure' class. If they choose to talent into more than one then they won't match any pure on anything. Let them fully talent for one thing and be really good at it and accept that they will be 2nd rate for all the other abilities.

[Badeggplant]

The whole notion of "Hybrid" completely misses the boat on the way the talent trees work and we ought to stop using the term.

"Hybrids" speced for DPS are DPS/utility hybrids (the ability to off heal is a utility). And "Pure DPS" classes are also DPS/utility hybrids. You can choose your class based on the type of utility you prefer, but that shouldn't/won't grant you an automatic advantage in DPS because both fall into the same category of DPS/utility hybrid.

[Samhein]

They way you say this sounds like they can do everything as well as every other class all at the same time... hardly reality. With WoLK it's even more divided in that a druid will likely choose a particular spec and talent deep into it accordingly making the other abilities' potential not close to a 'pure' class. If they choose to talent into more than one then they won't match any pure on anything. Let them fully talent for one thing and be really good at it and accept that they will be 2nd rate for all the other abilities.

Then you misunderstand. I know a boomkin won't ( or at least shouldn't ) dps as well as a mage. However, they can come close. While boomkin speced they CAN throw some hots around if the need arises. Sure those hots won't be near as powerful as other heals, but they'll still top off a melee dpser or keep a retadin mana charged.

So why bring the mage? The boomkin is close on damage, can throw a heal, has some survivability, offers an aura, and can battle-rez. A 10% personal dps loss is worth the "Extras" the boomkin can throw into the mix.

Basicaly damage+utility+healing > just damage.

[Klydde]

@Samhein

Thats not true. While the boomkin can do such dps as close as a mage, if there is a reason for him to throw some heals, its the healers faults, AND if he does that, HE is losing dps, which was his role, lowering his perform and, in some extreme cases, causing a wipe.

A pure dps class has 3 ways of dpsing, while a hybrid just have 1. Thats the different. If a boss is strong against fire, a mage go ice and a warlock go affliction, while a boomkin do what? Stay with his "caster arsenal" or go melee or do nothing. If there is a boss thats not melee friendly, a rogue can try to find a good spec against him, while a pally can do what? Become a healer??? This is the diff between pure dps and Hybrids. They do dps only in 1 way, not on many like pure does.

[Gamof]

regarding palas
ofc the pala can offtank
but thats also something a off-warri / feral / dk can do
ur reasoning "a ret can offtank why take a off-warrior/rogue" is stupid
u see: "a off-warrior can offtank why take a ret/rogue"

Your point there. For the feral druid to warrior to ret pally. Yes, they all can off tank. But the reasoning there is NOT the warrior vrs the ret pally you are saying. But the warrior/ret pally VRS the rogue. Why take the rogue if his DPS is the same as the pally? from both the others you loose the tanking/buff aspect to take the rogue, the only bonus they would have over the others is the damage.

The rogue cannot taunt and hit his shieldwall to help out if the MT is about to die and the healers are stunned.
The rogue cannot throw an OH SHIT LoH on the tank to save them from a killing blow.
The rogue does not offer a damage increase/health increase buff to the raid.
The rogue cannot spot heal himself thru an AoE to help out without the use of consumables.

Its instances like this that make people not want hybrids damage to be what it is to someone they call a "pure" because if there damage is the same, their utility is not. Giving the fact that a ret pally can Offtank a mob, Oh shit heal, raid buff, add a group crit bonus, regen mana to the group AND do within lets say 5% damage of the rogue. Like hell if another rogue is comming with me.

[Klydde]

Because the ret pally, after the MT dead, will pop his shield and sword, will change his build 2 prot in a sec, will heal himself while tanking the boss and will still dps the boss like the rogue right? :

[meroko]

Lol stop worrying about pulling without salv. I've already seen DPS go all out on brutallus without pulling. Tanks can hold their own now. Hand of Salv is there just incase which i've used 0 times so far and i've raided quite a lot on PTR/Beta.

Do not worry, salv was removed for a reason...DPS your little hearts out.

[Excessive]

true but he will boost the tank 's threat alot if the tank is aware of it and takes advantage of it

Tricks of the Trade is for the hunter, not the tank.

[Gamof]

Because the ret pally, after the MT dead, will pop his shield and sword, will change his build 2 prot in a sec, will heal himself while tanking the boss and will still dps the boss like the rogue right? :

No, but the ret paladins lay on hands can keep the tank alive the extra 2-4 seconds that might be needed for another heal to land. The rogue can't do that.

You are speaking as if I said they can do all at once. But I have seen a ret pally offer heals to subsidise the tank to finish off the kill, I have seen them take a hit or 3 to last untill the other DPS finish it, I have seen their BUFFS add efficency to other people.

The closest I have seen to that from a rogue is them nail evasion.

[Klydde]

Yes i've seen some doing that, but there is a price, their dps. Although in most cases nothing happened, i was in Malacrass first kill of my guild and we didn't killed him in the first time of attempts because the healer died and our ret pally (live) stop attacking the boss and just become a healer and he ended with 2% wiping everyone. He still managed to heal for something like 20 seconds before that soul attack, but we could have killed him if he was attacking.

They have a lot of buffs, but instead of just picking them, we can choose to pick our friends that can provide something similar to it. We don't need to stop a raid just because we don't have enough pallys and shamans anymore. And still, their dps, like people already stated, are just 8% below of those dps classes. For hardcore guilds that don't see this new change as an advantage, 8% 7% is still something to be considered, specially in firsts kills. For casual ones, this change is welcome and well made...

[antidan]

A hybrid class cannot respec in top level raiding on a whim. That is a fact. Because Blizzard has destroyed nearly every hybrid spec in the game there is no such thing a hybrid in raiding. A boomkin is dps, nothing else. I have seen exactly 0 progression kills where a prot paladin was brought in to heal, or a boomkin said "zomg the other druid died I better roll lifeblooms." This is a fallacy that "pure" classes get themselves into. Pre-Wrath hybrids were brought because they brought superior buffs to the raid, this has been changed, so they need to do equivalent damage otherwise they would be completely obsolete.