New paladin changes newest build....

[Necrox]

Val,

(PvE, I don't PvP so can't comment there)
The problem is just that Rets don't currently run out of mana, and JotW just got a buff for us so DP is not really needed or wanted, except maybe the few fights that has mana burn, which let's face it is not going to every encounter
I understand that it should be situational, but currently it's non-situational - as in never useful :P
Pallies are still pigeon-holed as being single target healers. Like tank healers.

Would the tank be happy if he lost his healer for 15s. I understand the "limit" to heals, but removing all heals for 15s, completely?
If they wanted it to be thought about an used sometimes only, why not just increase the CD?

Also no offense but please don't drag BC fights and gear into a LK discussion. If you have some LK numbers I'd be happy to see them, but your current performance has very little impact on the reality of lvl 80.

The only thing you said which I can agree with is the Illumination point. Yep that happened, and it could be the same we're in for. Only time will tell.

I just find it odd that except for 1 or 2 accounts, I've mostly heard pains from LK beta Holy Paladins, and they are answered with substantial nerfs and a buff that has no effect?
For the JotP change to be useful they'd have to give the Crusader Strike its Judgement refresh ability back or extend Judgement duration (possibly in the JotP talent itself).

[BlazerWithTheLazer]

well they killed Holy for sure this time, GG blizz.

might still see holy pallas in a raid once in a while but never in 1700+ arena.

[Aceldama]

I am really disappointed with the holy changes in the most recent build. Divine plea is now very situational for holy's and Infusion of light is nothing compared to how excited im sure many people were about it originally.

Hopefully Infusion of light will be changed back, I understand how it could be a very op talent in specific situations but I would much sooner see some kind of cd set to this ability or a healing nerf put on the instant holy light so that you cannot regularly instant cast a crit heal in excess of 10k.

Also ive always felt since Divine plea was first announced that a 1 minute cooldown is not neccessary and I doubted it would be the type of ability that would be used every cd by any paladin spec. I would much rather have it with a longer cd (3-5 minutes) but with a shorter duration and a reduced healing nerf. I say this as a pala who mainly plays prot and who would as it stands probably get the most use out of Divine plea in its current form, unless ofcourse a ret pala forgot to keybind judgement ...

[tjanson]

druids are the only ones wich were able to innervate theirselves in pvp and the
pvp gear didnt or almost didnt have spirit so not much of a YIPIKAYEEEEEE benefit either

but hey we learned how to deal with that keep the pressure high and make him heal a lot

Oh, we learned to keep the pressure up on druids, did we? Is THAT why druids continue to be overrepresented in high level arena teams by some absurd margin while holy paladins are shit on by nearly every class? Give me a break.

Not EVERY change is able to be compensated for by "learning to adapt to it."

[tjanson]

You do realize that if you sucked in TBC, you'll probably suck in WotLK, right?

Ret paladins DO have a spot in raids currently, and a really good paladin fills all three roles when necessary.

You're an embarrassment to our class. Go away.

[Necrox]

Not true.

I sucked in BC but I don't in PTR :P
Reason being that apart from getting the buff, it's gotten a lot easier to control your DPS now. Less seal twisting and swing timing needed. It still gives an edge but nowhere near what it used to, it's easier button-mashing now.
(which I welcome because I wasn't particularly good at the other stuff and it took a lot more concentration to keep up during long fights)

I'm not saying it's total easy mode, you still need to tighten your game, but it's definately easier to keep up good DPS now.

[mpohagan]

I'm just glad I got a ret set together to level with. Two years playing frustrating as hell holy in 2v2 and 3v3 arena, and then they go and take away the talent that was gonna make it different from tbc.

Divine plea is just shit. Surely they could have come up with something a bit more creative than that.

I sure as hell know I won't be arena'ing as holy in wotlk now. A pity, things were looking kinda interesting.

Ugrateful - Believe it or not people want to pvp as holy. Think of all that bitter and twisted about ret time you've had that could have been put to better use.

You do realize that if you sucked in TBC, you'll probably suck in WotLK, right?

Ret paladins DO have a spot in raids currently, and a really good paladin fills all three roles when necessary.

You're an embarrassment to our class. Go away.

Agreed.

[Val3rim]

Val,

(PvE, I don't PvP so can't comment there)
The problem is just that Rets don't currently run out of mana, and JotW just got a buff for us so DP is not really needed or wanted, except maybe the few fights that has mana burn, which let's face it is not going to every encounter
I understand that it should be situational, but currently it's non-situational - as in never useful :P
Pallies are still pigeon-holed as being single target healers. Like tank healers.

Would the tank be happy if he lost his healer for 15s. I understand the "limit" to heals, but removing all heals for 15s, completely?
If they wanted it to be thought about an used sometimes only, why not just increase the CD?

Also no offense but please don't drag BC fights and gear into a LK discussion. If you have some LK numbers I'd be happy to see them, but your current performance has very little impact on the reality of lvl 80.

The only thing you said which I can agree with is the Illumination point. Yep that happened, and it could be the same we're in for. Only time will tell.

I just find it odd that except for 1 or 2 accounts, I've mostly heard pains from LK beta Holy Paladins, and they are answered with substantial nerfs and a buff that has no effect?
For the JotP change to be useful they'd have to give the Crusader Strike its Judgement refresh ability back or extend Judgement duration (possibly in the JotP talent itself).

the reason why i implemented the BC fights in my comment is because i dont have divine plea atm and it seems that the gear in WoTLK has huge amounts of crit rating
so its the same with better stats and new talents and some improved and some nerfed allready.

just stating that with the old version of divine plea you wont need any other stuff if you see what gear you get

[Val3rim]

Oh, we learned to keep the pressure up on druids, did we? Is THAT why druids continue to be overrepresented in high level arena teams by some absurd margin while holy paladins are shit on by nearly every class? Give me a break.

Not EVERY change is able to be compensated for by "learning to adapt to it."

you are seeying it wrong... sigh... i dont think you did understand what i wrote

the reason why druids are overrepresented is because of their good way too CC people

but im comparing only healing here im not talking about CC capabilities
if a druid innervates himselve its pathetic as innervate is a spell based on the amount of spirit

but divine Plea isnt stats bound so basically more superior towards any other class on mana regen.
remember that if you want divine plea to work in original version, they might as well give druids spirit on their pvp
and we dont want that now do we?

[mpohagan]

What what in the...... Am i hearing Holy crying ? Holy isn't the class but some of you sure made it out to be for the last 4 years i do believe as for a Ret atm having a raid spot. Well we can tell all you have ever done on your paladin if you even have one is Holy so yep you are the type of people i am addressing right now. You morons just don't get it do you ? It was never about Holy, Prot or Ret yet Holy Paladins made it about themselves over and over again in thousands of post without really any Hard hitting nerfs that would destroy the spec. Having other classes buffed beyond your class spec isn't a nerf get that right. This however is equal to the nerf Ret paladins face every day with Divine Shield and their job being a support Melee dps spec.

As for being an embarrassment to my class you have no idea what i have done as a player to fight for the specs even holy. This small nerf to a new spell just makes me smile and feel all warm inside because i don't play my paladin just for Ret or just for Prot or just for holy i play it for me and now i can enjoy it for me and no one else. In other words Holy is fine L2p

You need to go and have a really solid cry. Go on. Get it out of your system.

It wasn't one small nerf to a new spell, there was also a nerf in there for a talent that it was hoped would help to make holy paladins viable as arena healers outside of 5v5. I very much doubt holy will be fine for pvp if things remain as they are. Just like it hasn't really been fine since s1.

As for "i don't play my paladin just for Ret..." its pretty clear that you do.

[yiptastic]

you are seeying it wrong... sigh... i dont think you did understand what i wrote

the reason why druids are overrepresented is because of their good way too CC people

but im comparing only healing here im not talking about CC capabilities
if a druid innervates himselve its pathetic as innervate is a spell based on the amount of spirit

but divine Plea isnt stats bound so basically more superior towards any other class on mana regen.
remember that if you want divine plea to work in original version, they might as well give druids spirit on their pvp
and we dont want that now do we?

I hope they can put a talent in holy that buffs divine plea.

Light Grace:
"on top of the existing effects", reduces the healing reduction by 33/66/99% but increase the cooldown by 1/1.5/2 minutes.

that will work too!!! come on!
it's not OP if it works every 3 minutes, right? c'mon Blizzard.


and I don't know why they nerfed infusion of light. I hope they are adding other bonus to this talents to compensate for 1 sec nerf to HL.

to me, it seems to be a nerf to PvP pallies, but doesn't hurt PvE pallies in haste gear.

1 sec Holy Light cast isn't bad, and the GCD won't be 1.5sec like an instant cast would do. so...

[tjanson]

Well we can tell all you have ever done on your paladin if you even have one is Holy so yep you are the type of people i am addressing right now.

Damn, I guess all those times I went prot for SSC, Hyjal, and BT, and ret for Sunwell didn't really happen! I primarily play holy in PvE, and ret in PvP. Paladin was my first, and primary character, and I love the new changes to ret. I leveled as ret. I'm glad we're no longer the red headed step child of dpsers. That said, ret still does have a place in raids on live.

It's much more likely that YOU suck and/or act like a giant douchebag, and therefore nobody wants to take you to raids. A TRUE paladin can do whatever the raid requires him to do. Since most people would rather stick sharp objects in their eyes than heal, and we are a class that can heal, most paladins end up pigeonholed as holy if they want to see end game content. As I said before, if you're a terrible player or impossible to stand, Blizzard isn't buffing ret enough that people will want to play with you. Sorry.

I'm not sure if your signature is supposed to be ironic or not, but you really should try using a hair dryer in the shower. I hear it's a great experience.

Edit: What you really don't see about this situation is this: If they continue to nerf holy, those damned dirty holy paladins will simply change specs, and raid as ret. You'll continue to cry, and throw things at walls. Good luck!

[Jeran]

Too the nerf in our "innervate" druids do have spirit on there pvp gear now so that previous comment doesnt matter (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/..._druidheal.jpg) and as far as im concerned holy pallys should be viable in pvp just as ret should be viable in Pve so Ungrateful you fail at life >

[Val3rim]

it seems that a lot of you want to spam HL with a full mana left at the end

if you are OOM at the end of a fight and you and your tank are alive
i would say DAMN FINE JOB MAN! keep it up

to a paladin whos mana is still full at the end of a fight i will tell: WAKE UP AND USE YOUR MANA

mp5/ bow, consumables, critrating, JoTW isnt apparently enough to work with

all i say guys chill a bit and dont suicide yet because we arent there yet.

Wait and lets see how we will manage, if there is something missing they will fix it

up till now i have seen blizzard listening more than ever to people to make WoTLK 10x better and enjoyable than TBC, as they admitted there were huge failures
and definatly towards the paladin class

i have confidence this time.

[tjanson]

Val: Agreed. I'm more mystified than anything by the changes to divine plea, but I don't think it breaks the class, at all. I'm overall very happy with the changes made to the paladin class, and I plan on playing mine in WotLK.

Ugrateful: The reason paladins look at you and say lolret, is the same reason hunters look at other hunters and call them huntards. It's because you give us a bad name. It has nothing to do with your spec. All this rage towards holy is neither justified nor even sane. No holy paladin ever took your raid spot.

[tjanson]

Wait... the war? Really?

[Sulika]

Seriously Cry more, 4 years yep 4 damn years from the first beta till now Ret finally sees a spot in Raiding they can fill at the price of 1 maybe 2 holy paladins. Instead of bring 4 holy paladins we get to see 2 holy paladins max 1 prot and 1 Ret and even if the guild doesn't have the Holy Paladin on hand Grats to shamans cause they just moved up in the healing world. Yes Cry more because Blizzard is fixing their greatest mistake to the game that has been going on for 4 years now.

Ret has been fine now for many months, if you can't raid as ret in the game right now you must just suck. You also don't seem to be aware that it is not a zero sum game. Both Holy and Ret can be viable at the same time. Also you totally fail at seeing that the reason raids bring multiple holy paladins has far more to do with the fact that you need to take about 8 healers from 4 healing classes in every 25 man raid. It doesn't matter how viable ret is or isn't, the raid design still requires an average of 2 of each healing class, that won't change one little bit in wrath. With 30 specs and 8 healers needed that leaves 17 spots to fill between the 25 non-healing specs. That means there is about a 68% chance of any raid having a ret paladin. Compared to the pretty much guranteed 1-2 holy paladins they are going to have. So enjoy being more viable but it is still not going to make it any more likely that you get a spot (compared to live at present where a lot of guilds bring a Ret paladin for the unique buffs they provide).

I think most Holy Palas were pretty much blindsided by these changes. I can't recall seeing a single "nerf holy palas" thread on any of the forums (I have seen a hell of a lot of "nerf ret" threads though).

Divine Plea is hard to gauge without being able to play in the beta. Maybe the mana regen was needed, maybe it wasn't. I can still see it being mildly useful as long as you can just stick a "/cancelaura Divine Plea" at the start of all your healing macros though I expect reducing the need to drink between pulls is likely to become its biggest use. Why on earth would any guild take a healer that needed to put themselves totally out of the fight for 15 seconds out of every minute? If they can survive that long without your healing they didn't need you in the first place. I also totally fail to see a purpose for it right now. A prot paladin will regain mana faster from spiritual attunement than they will from using it anyway, ret has no use for it. I just wish someone in Blizz would say what the point of it is. Its biggest use right now though seems to be for the enemy mage who spell steals it from you. Certainly if the expectation is going to be that holy paladins need to make regular use of it then holy paladin as a raid healer is pretty much destroyed.

At present casting Hand of Sacrifice on the tank and taking the spiritual attunement healing seems to be a much more viable form of mana regen.

Infusion of Light being nerfed on the other hand has pretty much totally sapped any enthusiasm I had for healing in wrath. Simply because it was fun. It changed the paladin play style into something more mobile. For PvE it doesn't really matter too much, its still less time than the GCD but in PvP it is incredibly dull now. Pretty much everything a Holy Paladin had to help increase survivability in PvP has been nerfed. Bubble can be nuked through by many classes, Blessing of Sacrifice has been replaced with the vastly inferior (for PvP anyway) Hand of Sacrifice. Rank 1 Consecration to flush out rogues is gone. Expect to get sapped, stunlocked and nuked through your bubble with alarming regularity now. Infusion of Light was presumably the justification for removing most of a holy paladins defenses. Now it is just useless. The defenses are gone but nothing has been gained in return.

But taking all that aside, it was just a fun ability. After years it freed up a holy paladins feet just a little bit. It made for some interesting choices in what to cast instead of just mindless FoL spam freeing up your mind just a little bit too. That is all gone now.

As for raid healing as a whole, expect much the same path as has been seen in TBC to repeat. The simple fact is that the way the gear progression goes your healers ability to heal scales much faster than your tanks health pool. As time goes on the only way to utilise that is to push more and more damage onto the rest of the raid. Whatever way wrath starts out it is going to end up focussed on AoE heals again. They can't stack enough damage on the tank to need 8 healers to spam heal him without one shotting them so there is simply nowhere else to put the extra damage except on the rest of the raid. Also mobility has to become an even bigger factor because just standing and healing is very boring. The same will repeat again, as the fights get harder the mobility demands will increase, thats just the way it has to be. The requirements of progression force holy's viability to shrink as the bosses get harder. There just isn't any way around it (especially if the only mobility Holy Paladins were getting is being removed).

[tjanson]

Yes, you just ignore that well written post Skulver wrote and say "YO BRING IT 1V1 ON THE PTRZZZ NUB"

It's incredibly obvious why you're so bitter over your WoW experience to date... grow up.

[Sulika]

Yes because i would read anymore from a flame directed towards my skill as a Paladin. Ptr lets go

But if you can't raid as ret on live now you must suck. Or maybe your skill level is irrelevent and nobody wants you in their guild because you are an asshole. I have to admit that does sound equally viable.

[tjanson]

The only one on this thread flaming... is you, Ugrateful. Have fun with your duels. It's likely to be the only thing you end up doing in the expansion - at least if you act towards your fellow guildmates the same way you do on these forums.