Welfare raiding.

[ilanna]

I would like to see the opinion of people who never had a chance to progress beyond Kara or SSC and now (possibly) can do Mt H or BT. Do you enjoy it? Because..(and this is the honest opinion in our guild after we did Kara ---> Illidan icluding ALL attunements), we now finally killed Kalecgos. Something we were clos to pre-3,0 but couldn't do. we also killed Brutallus.

But it felt shallow and "undeserved"

Well I'm not in the group of people you're asking for, but I'll agree on the opinion of your guild. We were 2/6 before the patch and just last night we downed Twins and likely would have gotten M'uru if we had another 15 minutes. I does feel cheap. And it's disappointing that we can't exactly run around announcing our sudden success without being laughed at. But it's okay with me! I know my guild is (was) capable of completing Sunwell in its original form. But like many other guilds out there we suffered a lot of losses due to school, work or "expansionitis". The help from the patch was just enough to allow us to probably finish the instance even though my guild isn't at 100% and probably won't again be until WotLK.

So while it doesn't quite feel the same and I certainly don't claim it to be anything that it's not, I'm still happy that we'll actually complete Sunwell and see the content.

[cubby]

Some thoughts.

While everyone is busy PUG´ing BT and MH I have started wondering if this walfare raiding environment is really just a temporary thing.

I get that Blizzard wants everyone to be able to see the raid content before expansion. Though with their history of sucking up to "the casual" I am wondering how the WotlK raiding environment will turn out. I now see alot more guilds engaging in 25-man raiding which is good. But when Blizzard acknowledge how alot more people now suddenly wants to visit their raid instances - will it then cause the general dificulty of raid instances in WotlK to drop to this mind-numbing level? The heroics are already estimated to ~30mins.

Without sounding like a jackass, I'm guessing that you started playing awhile after it was released - possibly even after BC came out.  I only say this because Blizz has a historical tendency to "dummy down" content after it's been out for awhile.

That trend, combined with an admittedly VERY difficult raid instance (SwP), led Blizz to allow many people who would never have had a chance to see BT/SwP until they reach a higher level, to now do so.  Blizz has also said that while they loved creating SwP, it was too difficult an instance to be repeated anytime in the near future (Blizzcon Panel - I was there when they said this).

Everything right now in BC is on very easy mode.  People are actually trying to PuG SwP - and succeeding.  Blizz wants people to see the content and "casuals" (a word that really has no meaning anymore - but let's not digress in THAT discussion ) are tired of missing out on the "good stuff" in end game raiding (and I think Blizz is tired of the majority of their "good" content in raiding only being seen by about 1% of their player base - but that's just an assumption on my part).  

Furthermore, Wrath content in Beta is also on easy mode - as it was with BC when it was in Beta.  Rest assured that what you are seeing in Beta atm is not what you'll be seeing in release.  As someone already said, they want people to get in there and test it as much as possible (so they make rep grinds easier, bosses have less health but retain the "encounter" so people can test the effects and boss abilities).

Finally, if you are a hard core raider, most of Wrath at release should be enjoyable but very easy - Blizz won't be releasing the T8 and T9 raid dungeons until after Wrath is released.  

[FireBorne]

OK Blizz has finally made ALL specs raid worthy. I can be prot and raid w/o having any problems doing my day to day grind. Arcane mages, ret pallies, arms warriors, assa/subt rogues,shadow priests, ect... all now do real dmg and sooo many lil whiny bitches want to complain now.

I dont think the hp nerf was really needed but i'll take it, the dungeons and encounters in lk will have heroic settings and maybe timed content to keep a challenge going. In the hands of a skilled player now, there is still a challenge just not enough to make you want to quit raiding. no more class stacking and gimicky fights. No more taking forever to do the fun stuff. KI was personally sick of farming tokens from bosses for months....i welcome the new challenges and uber skill that are coming with lk launch.

[aminidab]

Why do people refer to casual players as someone who's less "skilled" in a game? What makes a casual player a worse player than a hardcore player?

A casual player is someone who doesn't play the game extensively, prohibited by work/family or by own choice. That does not mean they are worse at playing. I've met more good casual players than hardcore players.

casual =/= unskilled

hardcore =/= skilled

old =/= experienced

young =/= unexperienced

however chances are someone that plays 16 hours a day, will likely know more about the game and it's mechanics than someone that plays 2 hours a week. Just as someone who has lived 60 years will likely have experienced more things in life than someone who is twelve. I have known people that only play 4-5 hours a week who where AMAZING players. and I've know people who played 12-16 hours a day who where completely clueless about the class they played and the game in general. it is not a hard and fast rule that hardcores are more skilled than casuals, but more often then not comman sence dictates that more practice at least should equal more knowledge/ability

[octoberfox]

I'll be frank and honest. I like the catering to casuals. Last summer I raided four days a week, got a bunch of great gear and then looked back and realized how much time I wasted in front of a computer for some in game recognition and epix. Ever since the college semester started back up, I haven't had as much time to devote to wow. If people are honestly going to throw a hissy fit because somebody can get on for a few hours, a couple nights a week, and still get some of the best gear in the game, than they're selfish, arrogant, and need to go outside once in a while. A game with nine million players (number is prolly wrong, seems to change every week) shouldn't make its content so time consuming that you have to treat it like a second job to get gear. Blizz as a business knows this too, the content should be hard, but not 40 hours a week hard. You wouldn't go to McDonald's anymore if your food took two hours to cook would you?

Hardcore raiding days are over. Go take a look at the sun.

Edit: Sometimes I wish blizz would give away tier 6 for like 5 badges each, for no other reason that to watch hardcore raiders throw a five year old temper tantrum.

[klaugh]

Same as with PvP gear, just because Blizzard is making it possible for those who don't have the time to put in like those who are "hardcore" doesn't make the gear they obtain "welfare". They could just make an entirely new gear set for those types of people, yet they decided to just make what already existed able to be obtained easier for those who don't have the time/dedication/whatever. Those who do, will always have their epeens to stroke whenever they feel the need "oh ya, well I downed _____ BEFORE 3.0" w/e, ya you're cool, while you were doing that I was doing other things that kept me from putting in that kind of time, good for you being able to arrange the time to be able to do that, whoopidy doo. You'll be able to move on and do the next stuff the same, and on and on as long as you keep playing because as long as people are playing blizzard will put out new content.

Why does it matter if others are getting the gear now? If you are "better" then them, then in the new content you will again get the new gear first and thus more food for your epeen.

[heerobya]

I'll put it as simply and plainly as possible:

Blizzard designs the game in tiers.

First tier is questing. In this tier you learn to play your class/the game.

Second tier is grouping (i.e. instances) and in this tier you learn to play with others.

Third tier is heroic instances. In this tier you learn to perfect your game and your role in the group.

Fourth tier is 10-man raiding. In this tier you take what you have learned in the heroic tier and apply it to a larger, more epic scale.

The fifth tier is 25-man raiding. In this tier you take what you learnd raiding 10-mans and apply it to an even larger, more epic scale encounter.

The sixth and final tier is the new Challenges and Hard Mode/Heroic raiding. In this tier the best of the best will push the absolute limits of their skill/coordination/their class to achieve nearly impossible tasks for extreme reward and prestige.


So, with that said....

All you "hardcore" players can please be quite about the game becoming more "casual friendly." You will be the only ones in the Sixth tier of PvE gameplay (chances are the 5th too), the only ones with the most uber loot and rare titles/mounts.

The rest of us, the "casuals" will be able to do our thing and have fun, without becoming YOU yet still have something just out of our grasp to strive for (if we so choose.)

It's BRILLIANT game design. This is why Blizzard is #1 in the MMO world.

Any questions?

[jizzyburnizzy]

Welfare: financial or other assistance to an individual or family

Welfare epics: gear that blizz provides in asistance to people who don't feel like putting some time and effort into something but still want to reap the same rewards that the kid who spends many hours is trying to get.

they are catering to the majority of the playerbase, thats why this game has been so successful. why people dont understand this I'll never know

[heerobya]

Welfare: financial or other assistance to an individual or family

Welfare epics: gear that blizz provides in asistance to people who don't feel like putting some time and effort into something but still want to reap the same rewards that the kid who spends many hours is trying to get.

I'm sorry that for 3 weeks we might have some of the same Epics you "earned" through months of "hard work" until the expansion comes out and all of us replace everything.

That really has to grind your gears....

[klaugh]

Who don't "feel" like putting in the time or effort?

Sure some may be that way, but not all, some simply CAN'T. IE - People who play who are in the military overseas. I know people who love this game but for the past 1.5 years have been overseas on a tour of duty, with maybe a week back here in the states where they are able to do what they want. They missed nearly all of TBC, and now they are able to get some of the gear they would have loved to put in the grind for if they COULD have.

[Tigercat]

This is all just part of the gear reset. Before TBC it was the honor gear becoming easy to get, this time it's raid gear. Once WotLK hits those of us that can raid successfully will pull further ahead again, just be patient and enjoy seeing any of the encounters you weren't able to see before.

[Tigercat]

I can agree with not liking Naxx becoming one of the easiest instances in the game, but oh well. Those of us that actually went at 60 will have a solid advantage over those that either never went or only brainlessly zerged it at 70.

[klaugh]

Elitist much?

People like that should follow in Hitler's final actions, he was a good role-model for that type of personality.

[klaugh]

And not every casual player wants to put in that kind of time and effort to get that level of gear right when it comes out.

From what I've read here, and see in game, none who are completing the content now are feeling all wicked and powerful and insane about it. They're just enjoying being able to do it. You still have your epeen to stroke, don't bitch about others getting to see content and get gear that will be replaced in less then a month anyway.

[sd78]

Welfare Epics ruined the game in BC.

Literally ANYONE could get handed free epics for doing nothing by farming 10 arena games a week (losing most of them) and going AFK in BGs.

Shortly after BC went live, I raided up to SSC/TK on my Druid and was amazed how people I knew were horrible at PVP were running around with S1 gear that they 'earned' by screwing around in arena for less than an hour once a week. Some of the weapons people could easily farm from S1 where better than ANYTHING you could get in Kara (which was still pretty challenging at that point).

I stopped raiding due to timezone differences and leveled my Rogue from 60 on my other server during season 2. Once I hit 70, I casually screwed around in arena and after 4 weeks I got handed the 97dps S2 offhand which was one of the three best offhands in the game at the time. For doing nothing. LITERALLY doing nothing.

Basically, to get a 97dps offhand you could either:

1- Join a raid guild (difficult for a Rogue) and down Moro in SSC, hoping that you'll have enough DKP or pull with the officers to get it

2- Max out Blacksmithing, join a raid guild and spend a small fortune on mats to make Blazefury

3- Casually screw around in arena for an hour once a week and get handed the S2 weapon after four weeks...


That pretty much killed raiding for me. Why bust your ass learning new content when you can get handed epics for doing nothing?

I've never been in ZA and smirk at the losers wasting their time wiping for a 95dps 1h weapon that's inferior to Welfare Epics. I've never set foot in Mt Hyjal, BT or SWP and don't intend to because eeven the top end epics aren't that much better than Welfare Epics you can get handed for free.

[Tigercat]

And such is the attitude of the unfortunate majority that only play for the gear.

It's a game, play for the fun of it. I enjoy the last couple % of a first boss kill a hell of a lot more than the doling out of loot afterwards.

[Loliiten]

That pretty much killed raiding for me. Why bust your ass learning new content when you can get handed epics for doing nothing?

Because end-game PvE isn't all about the epics, if that's the case for you I wouldn't even have you in my guild. The likelihood of people like that leaving after getting what they want is 90'ish%.. which sucks

[Sweeney47]

That pretty much killed raiding for me. Why bust your ass learning new content when you can get handed epics for doing nothing?

I've never been in ZA and smirk at the losers wasting their time wiping for a 95dps 1h weapon that's inferior to Welfare Epics. I've never set foot in Mt Hyjal, BT or SWP and don't intend to because eeven the top end epics aren't that much better than Welfare Epics you can get handed for free.

Thats a very gear motivated way to play the game, its no wonder you got annoyed with raiding. I, like several others, play for content, play for the 'fun'. I wouldnt pay for a second job now would I. I pay to play, to enjoy what im doing. My paladin was geared for SSC/TK/Starting of BT through badge rewards etc yet I stuck in a guild that only managed to get kara+gruul on farm, about a year I stayed with that guild. Why? Because I liked the people in it, I liked my character, I like pve. Sure sometimes it got a bit boring but that was because I was doing the same thing over and over again. The only time I got annoyed when in the fail guild was when I saw numerous people like yourself with the gear driven attitude, come, get their loots, leave to the next guild on the ladder up. Over and over again. It was people like you who hindered my guilds progress because as soon as we geared you up, you left. It was people like you that made me quit the game for a few months because I was fed up of the epic horny kids with 0 dedication and 0 commitment.

As for welfare? Its easier sure but its not exactly given straight over to you is it. Still need to work for it. People who moan at others seeing content and getting better gear within a month of it becoming outdated are a bit pathetic if you ask me but never mind. We all pay the same sub price so we should all get to see the same amount of the game. If only the 'hardcore' people are allowed to see the whole game then up their sub cost please. The difference between casual and hardcore 'should' be how quick they see the content, not whether they see the content... You take a normal fps game or something. Someone who plays for 12 hours a day finishes it in 1 day. Someone who plays it for 4 hours in a day finishes it in 3 days etc etc.

[cubby]

Welfare Epics ruined the game in BC.

Literally ANYONE could get handed free epics for doing nothing by farming 10 arena games a week (losing most of them) and going AFK in BGs.

Shortly after BC went live, I raided up to SSC/TK on my Druid and was amazed how people I knew were horrible at PVP were running around with S1 gear that they 'earned' by screwing around in arena for less than an hour once a week. Some of the weapons people could easily farm from S1 where better than ANYTHING you could get in Kara (which was still pretty challenging at that point).

I stopped raiding due to timezone differences and leveled my Rogue from 60 on my other server during season 2. Once I hit 70, I casually screwed around in arena and after 4 weeks I got handed the 97dps S2 offhand which was one of the three best offhands in the game at the time. For doing nothing. LITERALLY doing nothing.

Basically, to get a 97dps offhand you could either:

1- Join a raid guild (difficult for a Rogue) and down Moro in SSC, hoping that you'll have enough DKP or pull with the officers to get it

2- Max out Blacksmithing, join a raid guild and spend a small fortune on mats to make Blazefury

3- Casually screw around in arena for an hour once a week and get handed the S2 weapon after four weeks...


That pretty much killed raiding for me. Why bust your ass learning new content when you can get handed epics for doing nothing?

I've never been in ZA and smirk at the losers wasting their time wiping for a 95dps 1h weapon that's inferior to Welfare Epics. I've never set foot in Mt Hyjal, BT or SWP and don't intend to because eeven the top end epics aren't that much better than Welfare Epics you can get handed for free.

I read this twice, just to make sure I got it right. I just keep thinking, if this is your attitude towards WoW, why are you playing?

WoW isn't about getting the 107.5 dps weapon - and it certainly isn't about measuring time vs reward regarding gear. WoW is a deeply interactive game where people come to have fun, play with friends and take on new challenges. You make it sound like work. I'm proud that my guild downed Vashj. I could give a rats ass about who got what gear - it's the success, the effort, that really matters. And having fun while doing it.

[Deleted]

funny you mention "oh well"

because that's what the casuals deserve to be told.

don't have the time to get the best gear? oh well. go play rock band or something, where you can play however long you want.

Don't have time in your busy raiding schedule for friends, family or a relationship? Oh well, there's always masterbation.

*nb* I know not all Hardcore raiders are like this, however someone wants to throw stereotypes around, then i shall throw them back.