Shatter in Raiding

[Geckomayhem]

Shatter Rank 3
Increases the critical strike chance of all your spells against frozen targets by 50%.

Fingers of Frost Rank 2
Gives your Chill effects a 15% chance to grant you the Fingers of Frost effect, which treats your next 2 spells cast as if the target were Frozen. Lasts 15 sec.

I read that it is better to cast Frostbolts with FoF active than to throw out two Ice Lances. Either way, taking three points in Shatter gives you a 50% greater chance to crit with those Frostbolts when a target is frozen. This only applies on a raid boss (some instance bosses are susceptible to actually being frozen) when FoF is active.

My question is this:
Is Shatter worth taking in a raid build with this thought in mind, or do you get enough crit chance from Frost spells as it is, without the need to "shatter" a boss during FoF procs?

Speak from experience, please. I specced Frost recently (having been Fire since TBC was released) and it looks like I'm enjoying it enough to raid as a Frost mage at 80. I have a lot of experience as both a Frost and Fire mage but just want to know what people think regarding the already high crit rate of Frost spells.

Gaiwyn

[tjanson]

Uh, the only reason FoF is nice is because it treats the target as if it's frozen... which is only helpful if you have the Shatter talent to increase crit on frozen targets. There is no other bonus applied by FoF.

Let me put it to you another way. FoF taken without taking Shatter is completely useless.

[Warriorspwnwithhealer]

Ice lance also damages more when FoF is up

[Seraphk]

Ice lance also damages more when FoF is up

This.

[perera]

Because of the global cooldown, casting 2 ice lances takes 3 seconds of your time, so without shatter you are better off casting frostbolts and not having FoF either.

[WolleKK]

2 Frostbolts: 5sec cast; 2 * 2.5 * 861 = 4305dmg => 861dps
2 Icelances: 3sec cast (including GCD); 2 * 2.5 * 3 * 255 = 3825dmg => 1275dps

But Frostbolt scales better with SpellPower.
So with 2000 SpellPower:
Frostbolt: 861 + 2000*0.7143 = 2290 => 2 * 2.5 * 2290 = 11448dmg => 2289,6dps
Ice Lance: 255 + 2000*0.4286 = 1112 => 2 * 2.5 * 3 * 1112 = 16683dmg => 5561 dps

But in normal case you already began casting the next frostbolt when FoF triggers (fly time of FB). So you can Frostbolt, Icelance, Frostbolt again if FoF proccs. In this case:
2.5sec + 1.5sec GCD = 4sec
Frostbolt + Ice Lance: (2290 * 2.5) + (1112 * 3 * 2.5) = 14065dmg => 3516.25dps

All best case scenario (used shatter + more crit dmg-talents)

edit: typo

[YouKnow]

2 Frostbolts: 5sec cast; 2 * 2.5 * 861 = 4305dmg => 861dps
2 Icelances: 3sec cast (including GCD); 2 * 2.5 * 3 * 255 = 3825dmg => 1275dps

But Frostbolt scales better with SpellPower.
So with 2000 SpellPower:
Frostbolt: 861 + 2000*0.7143 = 2290 => 2 * 2.5 * 2290 = 11448dmg => 2289,6dps
Ice Lance: 255 + 2000*0.4286 = 1112 => 2 * 2.5 * 3 * 1112 = 16683dmg => 5561 dps

But in normal case you already began casting the next frostbolt when FoF triggers (fly time of FB). So you can Frostbolt, Icelance, Frostbolt again if FoF proccs. In this case:
2.5sec + 1.5sec GCD = 4sec
Frostbolt + Ice Lance: (2290 * 2.5) + (1112 * 3 * 2.5) = 14065dmg => 3516.25dps

All best case scenario (used shatter + more crit dmg-talents)

One thing! Does Ice Lance rly scale with your spelldmg as much as frostbolt? Point Point Point

[WolleKK]

No, so I used the factor 0.7143 (71.43%) and 0.4286 (42.86%).
Check out http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power An awsome site btw

[Boring]

icelance scales only a third of the usual instant coefficient, since its damage triples.

[YouKnow]

No, so I used the factor 0.7143 (71.43%) and 0.4286 (42.86%).
Check out http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_power An awsome site btw

yee true! Great Calcs My miss... Need more hit...

[Statix]

I've been Frost for a long time, and one thing I noticed was that I critted a whole lot more than my critical strike rating said I would. It's been known to happen that I had 8 to 10 crits in a row on Raidbosses with Winter's Chill fully stacked, two points in Empowered Frostbolt and about 20% crit rating. That's a total of about 35%, yet I crit with about 80% of Frostbolts.

Still, where would you put your points if you do not take Shatter?

[YouKnow]

Still, where would you put your points if you do not take Shatter?

This is a rly good point, there are no talents woth putting points in, just take the goddamn shatter and go kill something!

[WolleKK]

icelance scales only a third of the usual instant coefficient, since its damage triples.

Uuuh, that's the reason for the high numbers

So
FB + FB (5sec)= 861 + 2000*0.7143 = 2290 => 2 * 2.5 * 2290 = 11448dmg => 2289,6dps
FB + IL (4sec)= ((255 + (2000*0.4286/3)) * 2.5 * 3) + 5724 = 4056 + 5724 = 9780dmg => 2444,875dps
IL + IL (3sec)= 4056 + 4056 = 8112dmg => 2704dps

Mana Costs (dunno if I'm right)
FB: 425
IL: 229

All numbers lvl 80

[mamacita]

but can u do frostbolt icelance combo and only use up 1 charge of FoF? like u do in pvp.......

[WolleKK]

Both charges are used.

Does anybody know the ppm of FoF? Because when you FB two times you have two times 15% chance to trigger FoF, but not while using two times IL. Can anybody make a a calc of 5 minutes spamming FBs and than ILs?

[Bast]

I think you have some wrong maths, if i trying count with your base numbers give different results.

For spell power: 2000 with 0/0/61, Empowered Frost Bolt, Ice Shards (200% crits)

  Max DMG	 Coeficient	     SP bonus	    Total DMG	 Total DMG (Frozen)
IL  255    0,142866667      285,7333333	    540,7333333	  1622,2
FB  861	 0,9143	     1828,6	    2689,6	      2689,6
					
					
	  DMG    Time	DPS	 DPS (Both crit)
FB + FB	  5379,2	5	1075,84	    2151,68	
IL + FB  4311,8	4	1077,95	    2155,9	
IL + IL	  3244,4	3	1081,466667	2162,933333

For spell power: 3000 with 0/0/61, Empowered Frost Bolt, Ice Shards (200% crits)

   Max DMG	  Coeficient	     SP bonus	    Total DMG	 Total DMG (Frozen)
IL   255     0,142866667      428,6	        683,6	       2050,8
FB   861	  0,9143	     2742,9	    3603,9	       3603,9
					
					
	  DMG    Time	DPS	  DPS (Both crit)
FB + FB	  7207,8	5	1441,56	    2883,12	
IL + FB   5654,7	4	1413,675	2827,35	
IL + IL	  4101,6	3	1367,2	    2734,4

[Oweena]

Both charges are used.

Does anybody know the ppm of FoF? Because when you FB two times you have two times 15% chance to trigger FoF, but not while using two times IL. Can anybody make a a calc of 5 minutes spamming FBs and than ILs?

Read the text on FoF? /facepalm

Gives your Chill effects a 15% chance to grant you the Fingers of Frost effect, which treats your next 2 spells cast as if the target were Frozen. Lasts 15 sec.

There is no PPM And Ice Lance doesnt have a chill so it cannot proc FoF

Also the way you use FoF is like so...

FoF Procs
Use First Charge on Frostbolt
Use Second charge on a Shatter Combo Frostbolt/Icelance

[Hexxidecimal]

Read the text on FoF? /facepalm
There is no PPM And Ice Lance doesnt have a chill so it cannot proc FoF

Also the way you use FoF is like so...

FoF Procs
Use First Charge on Frostbolt
Use Second charge on a Shatter Combo Frostbolt/Icelance

I have not been able to pull this off. Ice lance always eats the FoF charge and my FB never crits.

[Haskel]

Also the way you use FoF is like so...

FoF Procs
Use First Charge on Frostbolt
Use Second charge on a Shatter Combo Frostbolt/Icelance

Pretty sure if I'm understanding you right, this won't work. What I see you as saying is.
Cast Frostbolt 1
Start Casting Frostbolt 2
Frostbolt 1 hits target and procs FoF
Finish Casting Frostbolt 2, consumes 1 charge of FoF
Start Casting Frostbolt 3
Finish Casting Frostbolt 3, consumes the second charge of FoF
Cast Ice Lance (shatter combo w/ Frostbolt 3), Ice Lance does 1/3 damage because FoF is gone.

This would only work if FoF was a debuff on the target like a regular freeze, since it calculates the crit chance/damage as the spell leaves your hand, but doesn't consume the buff until the spells hit the target. Because Frostbite and FoF always proc together if you have both talented, you can't test this accurately on a dummy (vulnerable to freeze) unless you don't talent Frostbite (I made this mistake, and came to the same conclusion as you when first testing out frost spec).

Because Frostbolt 2 is already half-way done casting before FoF procs, 2x Ice Lance will almost always be the wrong choice, since the amount of time the frostbolt has been casting would have to be added to the time of IL+IL calc, making it closer to 4 seconds. The rotation would need to be something like this:
Cast Frostbolt 1
Start Casting Frostbolt 2
Frostbolt 1 hits target and procs FoF
Finish Casting Frostbolt 2, consumes 1 charge of FoF
**Here you decide to either Ice Lance the second charge of FoF or just keep on casting Frostbolts**
Start Casting Frostbolt 3
Finish Casting Frostbolt 3, consumes the second charge of FoF, maybe procs another FoF
<OR>
Cast Ice Lance, consuming the second charge of FoF, cannot proc a new FoF

As Bast showed, at 2k spell power, it'd probably be best to use Ice Lance, but as gear gets better, Frostbolt spam would pass it up. However, even at 2k, Ice Lance is only ~4 DPS higher than Frostbolt, but Frostbolt has a chance to proc a new FoF, so I'd not be surprised to see Ice Lance as always the wrong choice. This would reflect a post by GC in the past few days talking about how they would like a way to get Ice Lance into PvE, but implied by the post that it wasn't there yet.

To answer the OP: you definitely want to pick up shatter and FoF, even with a high crit, unless you pass 50% passive crit, you won't waste any of either talent, it'll average out to 7.5% more crit in the long run, for only 5 points spent. Even at 66% passive crit (likely impossible in any gear level) you'd still be getting ~5% crit for 5 talents, which is quite normal as far as talent benefits go.

[Geckomayhem]

What I'm finding is this:

Cast Frostbolt.
Start casting second Frostbolt.
First Frostbolt procs both Frostbite and FoF (the two ALWAYS proc at the same time).
Finish second Frostbolt. It does not "consume" FoF.

Here I can do the following.
Ice Lance 2x -- as the second leaves my hand it consumes FoF, as it is a buff on me and so is checked before the spell hitting the target is checked.

Do a third Frostbolt, which DOES NOT consume FoF either. I can continue Frostbolting and FoF will stay up on me for the entire time. If I am hasted at the time, I can get off a LOT of Frostbolts in that time. And FoF stays up. If I Ice Lance after the second Frostbolt (which, remember, does NOT consume a FoF charge), then continue Frostbolting without a second Ice Lance, FoF continues counting down.

So I am still questioning why we should continue Frostbolting if only Ice Lances consume FoF. If those Ice Lances crit, with enough spell power it is still not as much DPS as if the Frostbolts crit. Which is why you need Shatter to take advantage of FoF, right?

When it says the next two spells cast will treat your target as frozen, shouldn't this mean that enough damage will "break" the frozen target? Essentially, this means that after your second Frostbolt, FoF should disappear. But, it doesn't.

What I get from this is that you should take both Shatter and FoF and just continue Frostbolting, rather than weaving in those two Ice Lances. Does this make sense? I need to respec for Shatter because I figured that simply proccing FoF was a sign to Ice Lance twice for the bonus to frozen targets. But it appears as if it is better to take Shatter and just Frostbolt when FoF procs.

If I respec into Shatter, will Frostbolt then cause FoF to disappear from me as the second one cast after the proc hits the mob?

I haven't played Frost since vanilla WoW, so I was really out of touch. I didn't realise that you needed Shatter to take advantage of FoF. I just thought FoF was a talent for Ice Lancing and being able to cast Deep Freeze. ><

Gaiwyn