1. ## Armor Cap

Ref: http://www.wowwiki.com/Armor

Against Lv83 the armor cap is suppose to be 49,905. but i am hearing some people say 44k give or take. now if 49.9k is the 75% Damage Reduction (DR) then, 49,905 / 75 = 665.4 armor per 1% against lv 83 mobs. Protector of the Pack gives 12% which if you take 665.4 and multiply by 12 you get 7984.8 armor that protector of the pack reduces it by. so the NEW armor cap should be 41,920.2 armor. where are people getting 44k from?

even if you use against lv80 mobs (45,697) which dividing it by 75 you get 609.29333 armor per 1% against lv80 mobs so protector of the pack's 12% is 7311.52 making the new armor cap 38,385.48... still not even 44k that people are saying it is... false?

2. ## Re: Armor Cap

Firstly, it's not a direct armor to % ratio. The formula for % dmg reduction is this: DR% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * (AttackerLevel + 4.5 * (AttackerLevel - 59))). You gave the link to WoWWiki for armor, but do you actually understand the formula?

Secondly, Protector of the Pack is a multiplier of the reduction from armor. You can still hit the 50k armor cap and get a further 12% reduction after that. Here's another thread that covers that in more depth: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=19508.0

3. ## Re: Armor Cap

Secondly, Protector of the Pack is a multiplier of the reduction from armor.
That line makes no sense. PotP does not affect armor directly. It's a flat 3% damage reduction from all sources, short of falling damage. Similar to Paladin/Warrior/DK talents/abilities. It should stack with other similar effects, as do other damage reduction talent/spells.

You can still hit the 50k armor cap and get a further 12% reduction after that. Here's another thread that covers that in more depth: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=19508.0
although, yes this. And the armor cap is roughly 50,000k.

4. ## Re: Armor Cap

Originally Posted by Maleia
That line makes no sense. PotP does not affect armor directly. It's a flat 3% damage reduction from all sources, short of falling damage. Similar to Paladin/Warrior/DK talents/abilities. It should stack with other similar effects, as do other damage reduction talent/spells.
That's exactly what I meant. Ie, if you hit the armor cap and you have 75% dmg reduction, then the remaining 25% dmg is then multiplied by the reduction of PotP, so you receive 25% * 88%, or 22% of the total damage.

although, yes this. And the armor cap is roughly 50,000k.
50,000k huh?

5. ## Re: Armor Cap

well, i was just reiterating what you said. :P

As in, "yeah i tossed that formula on my TI83+ and it came out with roughly 50,000. The cap is a little under 50,000. what was said earlier, 49,xxx etc is most likely spot on."

edit ... oh lawl i see what i did there.

you know what i mean though :P

50,000,000 AC rock on!

6. ## Re: Armor Cap

Firstly, it's not a direct armor to % ratio. The formula for % dmg reduction is this: DR% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * (AttackerLevel + 4.5 * (AttackerLevel - 59))). You gave the link to WoWWiki for armor, but do you actually understand the formula?

Secondly, Protector of the Pack is a multiplier of the reduction from armor. You can still hit the 50k armor cap and get a further 12% reduction after that. Here's another thread that covers that in more depth: http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=19508.0
Degrador, if you look even closer you can clearly see i was heavily part of that thread too... but i still can not find the damage reduction formula with protector of the Pack... a lot of people are assuming it is a reduction after your own damage reduction factors.

so i am on the search again to find the true value of armor. we all know druids main focus is armor but what is everyone's aim goal for armor.

7. ## Re: Armor Cap

Originally Posted by Swiftly
Degrador, if you look even closer you can clearly see i was heavily part of that thread too
Hmm, I probably should've paid more attention to that...

but i still can not find the damage reduction formula with protector of the Pack... a lot of people are assuming it is a reduction after your own damage reduction factors.
I admit I can't find a blue post or anything to absolutely confirm that it comes after armor reduction, however I did find several threads on the wow forums that gave the same answers - PotP calculation is a multiplier after armor damage reduction. This makes sense to me too given that armor reduction only applies to physical damage, whereas PotP applies to everything - if it was included in armor reduction then it'd be a special treatment compared to the rest of damage, which they'd be unlikely to do.

so i am on the search again to find the true value of armor. we all know druids main focus is armor but what is everyone's aim goal for armor.
I think armor is no longer the focus of druids since the changes Blizzard has said they're making. The best way to improve your armor is to look for high ilvl items (where bonus armor doesn't matter as much), which means you get the full benefit of the itemization points to select the best stats you need.

8. ## Re: Armor Cap

I think the fact that it reduces spell damage makes it pretty clear that isn't involved directly with armor.
Given that the text reads very similarly to defensive stance:
"damage you take is reduced while in Bear Form and Dire Bear Form by 3%"
vs.
"Decreases damage taken by 10%"
I think it's quite reasonable to assume at first blush that it is in fact identical to how defensive stance works. Simplest explanation and all.

You would have to provide some good reason to even consider it interacts with armor in a more complicated way. As-is, nothing implies that it is.

The only reason I can imagine we would think in those terms is because the 12% is in the same ballpark as the % we lost from the armor multiplier change(s).

9. ## Re: Armor Cap

All damage reduction on a static basis, is added together.

It does not happen before or after.

If you have 50% reduction from Armor, and then 3% reduction from a talent. The new mitigation it put against the attack.

Base Attack - (Armor + Mitigation talents/spells/etc) = Damage taken.

That's since the beginning of the game, and i haven't seen that changed since.

I hope that helps you out. Seems like what you were asking.

10. ## Re: Armor Cap

The only problem with that maleia (yes I know this a druid forum) by the logic you put, I should gain health from the attack as it would put in negative numbers after I use something like shield wall.

Currently I have 60% Armor mitigation, with shield wall thats an additional 60% and then 10% from defensive stance = 130%. That doesn't work, which is why that formula is incorrect.

One is figured out, then the next, then the next. So..

I take 1000 damage base from an attack. Apply defensive stance, so I got to 900 base

900 base apply my 60% from armor = 360 damage

so 360 left, so I would apply shield wall for another 60% = 144 damage.

Each one is taken separately so unless your immune like a pally bubble you will take damage. Instead of 60+60+10 its all factored together separately so in the end all those talents and abilities I just listed actually give me a total of only 85.6% mitigation.

The same would work for druids, just follow what I said, and then try to find a way to compare to actual testing. The best way is to have a friend hit you 10 times with a 2h weapon (heal of course) with no armor on (yes I know you wont have a perfect 0 armor rating, but if its a warrior, he could always stack sunders first :P) then go full armor + bear form and try that again, check the avg hits and see if they compare to what you think you should be getting. Thats how it works.

11. ## Re: Armor Cap

%-based are multiplied, it's really not that complicated.

1. base hit
2. multiply armor redux
3. multiply percentile reductions, def/potp/shield wall/barkskin
4. subtract flat reductions, such as blocks, damage shields

voila.
Probably.

Edit: basically saying same thing as Nilinor

12. ## Re: Armor Cap

All damage reduction on a static basis, is added together.

It does not happen before or after.

If you have 50% reduction from Armor, and then 3% reduction from a talent. The new mitigation it put against the attack.

Base Attack - (Armor + Mitigation talents/spells/etc) = Damage taken.

That's since the beginning of the game, and i haven't seen that changed since.

I hope that helps you out. Seems like what you were asking.
This is wrong.
Say you are hit by a 10k damage attack before any form of mitigation.

Take out your 75% from armor. You take 2500 damage.

Now there are 2 possible outcomes:

1- PotP is stacking - it means 100-(75%+12%) = 13%, thus you take a 1300hit
2- PotP is not stacking (the same as Defensive Stance, btw) - that means 100%*(25%*88%) = 22%, thus you take a 2200hit

Tests have been conducted receiving blows while having or not having PotP, and knowing the armor reduction value.
The result is the SECOND outcome. With 75% armor reduction and 12% from PotP, you take 2200 damage out of a 10k pre-reduction blow.

You can say it's applied after, or before. It it the same, the factors order doesn't change the result.
BUT, they are not adding up one after the other. They are multiplied.

13. ## Re: Armor Cap

Nope, i think i'm closer to being right than you, but i will give you that Shield Wall/ Divine Protection happen AFTER everything else. Also take a minute to read that i never mentioned Shield Wall/ Divine Protection mechanics, although it could be read incorrectly to seem that i assumed those had been taken into account.

Here's the numbers i got while doing some testing on Anachronos today.

(read first number as live damage taken, Second as your calculation, third as my calculation)

5000 - No Armor / -3% damage reduction from a talent (i'm far too lazy to respec for this)

4500 - No Armor / -3% from one talent, - 6% from RF, - 3% from Sanct
4422 - Is how much you say i should have taken.
4400 - Is how much i say i should have taken.

1200 - Armor / 60% reduction + -3% from talent
2000 - Is how much you said i should have taken
1850 - Is how much i said i should have taken

1200 - Armor + RF + Sanct / 60% + 3% + 6% + 3%
1770 - Is how much you say
1460 - Is how much i say.

550 - Armor + RF + Sanct + DP / 60% + 3% + 6% + 3% + 50%
840 - You
0 - Your assumption of my post
730 - What I meant.

with exception to the first bit, (no armor, but RF + Sanct) seems that I'm closer in saying that Armor + talents + spells stack on top of each other first, THEN damage is calc-ed. Mechanics like Shield Wall/DP/etc are taken into account as a new reduction.

14. ## Re: Armor Cap

I'd also like to add this:

Later today i also did some calculations doing the following,

All baseline mitigations (talents/spells/etc) added together - Damage coming in = New Damage; Armor - New Damage = Real damage.
[((3% + 6% + 3%) - Damage = New Damage); (New Damage - Armor = Real Damage)]

Each baseline mitigations separate - Damage = New Damage; Armor - New Damage = Real Damage
[(5000 - 3% = X), (X - 6% = Y), (Y - 3% = Z), (Z - Armor = Real Damage)]

In both cases, i did not get anywhere near the actual live data. Now this might have something to do with mobs level vs my level, but Anachronos IS considered a Boss mob, so i don't think there's suppose to be a difference, someone should correct me if i'm wrong, but like i said he IS a boss mob, and should be interacting with me as a level 83.

15. ## Re: Armor Cap

We're both readin each other wrongly.

The buffs do stack, it was an unfortunate choice of words from me.
My point is, they are not added, thet are multiplied (as others said).

See Elitistjerks for the correct math on this.
Or you could also try RAWR (it has an updated model for Tankadin too, I take that's what you are): load your profile, reset all talents/buffs, check your mitigation from armor alone. Add the buffs and talents, check the mitigation again.

17. ## Re: Armor Cap

Uhm. I'm more confident with the druid section on EJ so I'll take a couple links from there:

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37449-f...ability_maths/

http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t36999-feral_druid_numbers/

In the first one the question specifically appear, and if you look at the formulas on the first post, you see how factors are multiplied. There's also a numeric example, even if short
The second cover some numbers, and it includes the armor formula to know your exact mitigation versus a mob, given that you know his level. Numbers are for druids for most stats, but armor isn't scaling off differently, so you can use the formula to check your effective % reduction regardless of your class.