Priest vs Paladin grouphealing after patches.

[nobodysbaby]

i cant talk for others ofc, but the numbers for this pala during 1 naxx run is on... page 2 i think:P if the other spells that are under 2% interests you, i can post them to.

[sTigmatico]

I checked a WWS from bosses only, full clear Naxx, and Paladins heals looks like this:

Holy Light 10 mil (44 %)
Judgement of light 6 mil (27 %)
Glyph of Holy Light 3,5 mil (14 %)
Beacon 2 mil ( 9 %)
Flash of Light 1 mil ( 5 %)

Meaning around 40% is "passive" and free cost groupheals.

I can only see 14% counting as your "OP" AoE healing, as the judgement healing can be done by any paladin. Calling Beacon free of cost and passive is just dumb, so I'll overlook that one aswell.

[nobodysbaby]

If i had count beacon in, it would've been 50%.

[sTigmatico]

And where do you pull these numbers from then? Even trying to say judgement of light would make this whole thread fall apart, as it has nothing to do with AoE healing from a HOLY paladin. If the holy paladin is not judging light, a prot/retri would.

[nobodysbaby]

I hear you, anyone can judge, any paladin, but is it common other then healers use this?

And 14% from a glyph IS op, yes

What i wanted to show is that 1 spell idd is used as mainspell, second is FoL at 5%.

[Xs]

Yes, the glyph is still OP, yes it should be a talent.
Yes, shock horror, it makes you have to compete with Paladins rather than face roll

But, at the other side of the argument
CoH costs almost half the mana (actual mana cost, not base mana % cost)
It is intelligent, Glyph heals (in my personal testing) the closest targets
CoH heals for more, almost double although the glyph can double crit to get up to ~2.5k

[sTigmatico]

Heals from a Priest (at the fight you've all used, Sapph)
Prayer of Mending: 40% (lolwut? a one button spell, that does everything for you?)
Circle of Healing: 32%
Flash Heal: 15%
Renew: 13%


This is from a random WWS I found, the guild has cleared every content out there so far. And this is the best run they had that has been uploaded as a WWS.

[nobodysbaby]

Yes, the glyph is still OP, yes it should be a talent.
Yes, shock horror, it makes you have to compete with Paladins rather than face roll

But, at the other side of the argument
CoH costs almost half the mana (actual mana cost, not base mana % cost)
It is intelligent, Glyph heals (in my personal testing) the closest targets
CoH heals for more, almost double although the glyph can double crit to get up to ~2.5k

How can you compare mana cost of CoH with a Glyph? Costs half mana of.... the glyph...?:P

Oh shock horror, yes, seems we get outhealed by 1 button mindless (the more mindless the better for grouphealing?) palas.. hehe;P

[nobodysbaby]

Heals from a Priest (at the fight you've all used, Sapph)
Prayer of Mending: 40% (lolwut? a one button spell, that does everything for you?)
Circle of Healing: 32%
Flash Heal: 15%
Renew: 13%


This is from a random WWS I found, the guild has cleared every content out there so far. And this is the best run they had that has been uploaded as a WWS.

Uhm, what you want to prove with this? That mending jumps?

[EzriEU]

Yes, I've raided with my priest from Kara to SWP, so I have seen some smaller changes, but this is kinda big

Reading this:

I am a grouphealer, and paladin is (or i will say was now, since they are doing it all;P), and being outhealed by tankhealer pushing 1 button, yes, makes me emo

... makes me seriously doubt that you have had real SWP experience before patch 3.0.

I really can't imagine a guild that actually raided (not wiped on Kalecgos) SWP with healers that know so very little about their colleagues. Healing has always been, is now, and will (hopefully) always be about cooperation and teamwork. But in the end this alone seems to be your problem.

[nobodysbaby]

This is not about teamwork, this is not about jeallousy or wanting to be nr1, this is about Blizzard and their sayings and thinkings. So dear palas, don't be offended. And I did realized I am on wrong forum, so I jumped to WoW's Healing Forum, and contiuned there But I see I was kinda late in this QQ to Bliz

But it is nice to see everyone protecting their own class so much.. Wow do makes us very involved in this game, a lil scary tbh :-*

[EzriEU]

I hear you, anyone can judge, any paladin, but is it common other then healers use this?

And 14% from a glyph IS op, yes

What i wanted to show is that 1 spell idd is used as mainspell, second is FoL at 5%.

You should really really stop before you embarrass yourself any further! It gets more and more obvious that you know absolutely nothing about how a Paladin works.

Is it common that other than healers judge light? Yes, it is not only common but a way better use of the judgment! You see, Judgment of Light scales WAY better with Attackpower than with spellpower, making a Holy Paladin's JoL the weakest JoL possible.

We use Judgments in this priority:

JoL -> Ret (if there's 2), otherwise Prot.
JoW -> Ret (if there's only one, to make sure the other DDs will get it as much as possible), Light as well if there's 2 Ret.
JoJ -> Useless in raids, but if there's 2 Ret the Prot judges Justice because otherwise the other Paladins would "overjudge" his Judgments of the Just - Debuff (aka "Thunderjudge") which is similar to a Warrior's Thunderclap.

Holy Paladins use JoW in general, because it is irrelevant to the Rets whether it's their own or the Holy's JoW that they get their mana from - and all our Holys have Heart of the Crusader (3% Crit-Debuff) as well. We just make sure to never ever use the same Judgment that the Prot uses.

So please - before you start commenting on a Paladin's abilities again - make sure you know how they work first.

[sTigmatico]

Uhm, what you want to prove with this? That mending jumps?

You do realise this proves that your own class can heal with 40% comming from ONE spell? Or are your sight to narrow to face anything?

[Firecrest]

My guess is that the OP doesn't understand the way HL glyph works.

The HL glyph splashes to five random targets within 8 yards of the directly cast HL.

It does not:
- Smart heal. It will not splash to the most damaged people. The guys at 100% health have just as much chance to be hit by it as the guy with 1 hp. Not only that, but it will happily splash onto pets that never need a heal as well. Even crap like Spirit Wolves or Water Elementals will soak up the spalsh from this.
- Put up big numbers. Average splashes are for about 1k with crits of a little over 2k. It's definitely not keeping anyone alive by itself.
- Reach very far. 8 yards is a pittance. On may bosses, 8 yards is not even enough range to land on the melee behind the boss when we're healing the tank in front (our usual assignment).

In order for the HL glyph to shine, two criteria must be met. First you need to have a good number of people stacked closely together. Preferably they need to be stacked close to the Tank (as this is who we're normally healing) or they need to be close to someone who is taking enough damage to warrant a HL over a FoL. Second, there needs to be a constant source of raidwide damage. And that damage needs to be spread to everyone in the raid. If just a couple people take the damage, there's a good chance that the splash will miss them and randomly pick healthy people. Everyone needs to be stacked and everyone needs to be taking damage. Without both of these key factors, HL glyph does little or nothing at all.

Thaddius is a good example of the kind of stacking that is needed for this glyph to be good. The whole raid is essentially stacked into two groups. However, there is not really a whole lot of continuous raid damage for the glyph to heal so most of it just goes to overheal.

Saph really also only provides one of these two needed elements. Her aura is a perfect example of the kind of raid damage this glyph loves. However, the second part is not there. There is very little real stacking going on in this fight. In fact, most people spend a good portion of it purposely spreading out. There is some stacking though (melee behind Saph, people behind Iceblocks) so this fight is currently the best use of the glyph - but even here, it will account for less than 15% of my overall healing.

The WWSs that you saw that made you concerned were probably from right after 3.0.8 when this glyph still had a 20 yard splash range. Even many Pallies (myself included) said this was way too much and the nerf that came to it was inevitable. Here is a direct link to my healing on my guild's last Saph attempt. Note that I came in second in healing on this fight with only 14% of my healing done by the glyph. The much better "raid heal" in this case was my Judgement of Light (since it only asks that people take damage and hit the boss and couldn't care less where they stand), but even that was only 23% of my healing. The vast majority of my healing still came from good old Holy Lights landing squarely on the tank.

So the bottom line is that all is still right in the world. Pallies are not, nor will they ever be, better AoE healers than Priests in general. If ever there is a fight that meets the two criteria explained above, then yes... We will out raid heal you. But the circumstances for this are limited at best.

[nobodysbaby]

You do realise this proves that your own class can heal with 40% comming from ONE spell? Or are your sight to narrow to face anything?

Hm, are you really comparing priest/palas in those matters? You want to go there? And why not show whole list of spells used?

[nobodysbaby]

Ouch Firecrest, you thought you saved time by not reading whole thread, but... no

[sTigmatico]

Hm, are you really comparing priest/palas in those matters? You want to go there? And why not show whole list of spells used?

From Sapphiron, that is the entire list of spells used.

[nobodysbaby]

From Sapphiron, that is the entire list of spells used.

Yees.... and this pri used 4 spells and pala 1-2 (if you count beacon 9%, cant rly say 5% fol is something to count in)? Am I wrong?

[Firecrest]

I hear you, anyone can judge, any paladin, but is it common other then healers use this?

Generally Ret Pallies Judge Light. This is because thiers will heal for more. I only Judge Light in my guild because we only roll with one Ret and it's far more important that he keep up JoW 100% of the time.

[Firecrest]

Ouch Firecrest, you thought you saved time by not reading whole thread, but... no

I read the thread. And what I got from it was that you are either ignorant, selfish or bad. Either you don't understand the way the things you are talking about work, are so caught up in numbers that you can't be glad your raid did well or are just so terrible at this game that you think that it's your class that's failing and not you.

Edit: Maybe all of the above.