Disc vs Holy in raids

[Pyxi]

Just out of interest Pizzabaggle, are you a Holy Paladin worried you will lose your raid spot, or a holy priest gloating how much better your spec is?

We dont know because he hasnt posted his armory which he says he was realm first in oh just about everything. Even when someone asked him to..

TWICE.

[Kelesti]

4 second cooldown on Power Word: Shield, and surprisingly, that 25% haste Proc still pops up if you shield an OT or any random raid member.

Debuff, not cooldown.

I think you missed the second half of my point.

Hey, you're the one that decided to chain a whole bunch of shit together and completely ignore the timings involved, wasn't me. HL will probably crit, but like I said in the post you quoted, it doesn't have to in order to serve its purpose. If a tank really needs that HL too, then they can as well and of course there's also LoH

We were talking about Holy Shock, not Holy Light, and again "oh noes cooldowns" not just a 3minute but now a 20(16?) minute

/clap

Pallies just have many more emergency situational abilities that disc doesn't even close to matching.

[color=teal]
Lay on Hands + Bacon...
vs.
Prayer of Mending, Renew, Pain Suppression, Power Infusion (toss that on yourself or another healer during an enrage phase if someone needs that HPS NOW, when dps is already covered).

Also, if you've not noticed, Divine Plea isn't actually returning any less mana. I think a holy paladin put it best and was on the first page of the forum post a Blue post made on the topic "What a joke of a nerf. I'll still spam it every time it's off CD"

No, it's not returning less mana, it's mortal striking your tank. 50% less healing output, suddenly guess what, you do less HPS than a Disc Priest. Oh now what?

Neither, Guild RL. And you're right, it's not disc vs holy pally, but it's hard to debate disc vs holy priest because they do different things. It's hard to match what a holy priest does for a raid in terms of what other healers do, and the job disc priests choose to fill, is better filled by a holy paladin, so I'm unsure of how that's not directly debating which spec is better: Holy.

[color=teal]To nitpick here, Holy still is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. They've got "okay" raid healing, one HoT that almost seems a waste of mana, a weak-ass absorption mechanic and strong single-target heal capabilities without the ability to chain them to infinity, losing to Resto Shaman, Resto Druids, Disc Priest-Holy Paladin, and Disc Priest-Holy Paladin (oh surprise).

I've made my arguments at this point, and if you choose to ignore them, that's your own problem. I'll come back and see if anyone posted something sensible for why I would want to bring a disc priest over some other healer and for what role, and possibly a few responses, but that's about it.

The only role a Disc Priest does well is tank healer, and they're gonna push HL/DP spammers out the door until the Holy Paladins learn to cut back their HPM issues.

[Izenhart]

To nitpick here, Holy still is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. They've got "okay" raid healing, one HoT that almost seems a waste of mana, a weak-ass absorption mechanic and strong single-target heal capabilities without the ability to chain them to infinity, losing to Resto Shaman, Resto Druids, Disc Priest-Holy Paladin, and Disc Priest-Holy Paladin (oh surprise).

This Anti-HolyPriest-Crusade-Because-Im-Specced-Disc-And-I'll-Show-All-Of-you-how-much-is-Disc-Cooler-Stronger-Better-than-Holy-and-I'm-the-only-genius-specced-right of yours is just...neither here or there, nonsensical.
Now Disc priest are the best MT Healers when Holy Priests has "okay" raid healing and a "Useless HoT" ...Mhm...okay...

[Kelesti]

This Anti-HolyPriest-Crusade-Because-Im-Specced-Disc-And-I'll-Show-All-Of-you-how-much-is-Disc-Cooler-Stronger-Better-than-Holy-and-I'm-the-only-genius-specced-right of yours is just...neither here or there, nonsensical.
Now Disc priest are the best MT Healers when Holy Priests has "okay" raid healing and a "Useless HoT" ...Mhm...okay...

Holy is extremely versatile. And I was a Holy Priest all through vanilla and TBC. I'm not anti-Holy, lately I just find it's role a little lacking after the much-needed Circle nerf. Although, with Prayer going raid-wide(sorta) it could be better at that.

As far as MT healing, a Holy Priest is more than capable. Renew, on the other hand, has been debated by the community for quite some time, and pretty much it's only use is when a Holy Priest is MT healing because that + avoidance = chance to 5SR dance.

On the same string, a Holy Priest is the only healer that you could bring 5 of to Ulduar and have any chance of being able to pull off every fight.

[Iwachiten]

A HUGE majority of you are missing the fundamentals of what Disc priest can do that NO OTHER can.

Preemptive shielding

Take the malygos fight for instance. which is a shining example of how a Disc can be used like no other healing class.

I have been able to 2 man heal it on 10 man (other healer was a shaman) on multiple occassions.

For phase 1:
Obviously the shaman cant cast while in vortex, thus as a Disc priest I was virtually keeping them up single handedly.

Yes, PW:S has a 15 sec limiter on individual taregts. However, overall, it only has a 4 sec CD.
With this in mind, I precast shields on as many as I can (~4 targets) before going into vortex, and throw out a PoM for good measure. Then while IN vortex, I throw even MORE shields out (and another PoM).

You are able to HEAL before damage even occurs. Good Disc players know precicely when and WHO to shield to make the most use of their PW:S and GCD.


Next is phase 2:
The Scions hit like a truck if you are not in an arcane barrier. As a Disc priest, you are able to preemptively shield PRIORITY targets.
In every attempt thus far, the other healer and myself have been hit while in transit. A PW:S makes the difference between living and dying (I shield other targets with low HP as well). Throwing a PoM further cements this INSURANCE.

In terms of reactivity, these shields have no equvilent. Imagine the delay of SEEING someone being hit by an attack, then CASTING a heal. Even if it were an instant heal, the delay still exists.

Then there's the Grobbulus fight.

Anyone who gets mutating injection on them...BAM! throw a shield on.
The resulting shield will ABSORB all of the damage.

Gluth fight: cast on kiters to prevent them from taking damage, getting debuffed, and getting stunned.


I think the main reason people don't see this is because PW:S and Divine Aegis are not included into recount/heal meters.


I currently use a modded version of recount that converts the glyph of PW:S into healing done, and crit heals into healing done (Divine Aegis)

Here are some typical results...

Naxx, Construct Quarter
In addition to using it heavily during Grob it was used during Gluth and Thaddius
Gluth fight: cast on kiters to prevent them from taking damage, getting debuffed, and getting stunned.
Thaddius: cast on tanks and priority targets such as healers and high DPS during polarity shift to ensure they dont die.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2196j4x.jpg

Naxx: Spider, Plague, Construct
http://i43.tinypic.com/b3swlh.jpg
Displays part of my tactic of....being grouped with the tanks durign trash pulls and RUNNING in with them and spamming Holy Nova. This not only heals but puts almost continuous shields on them.

KT, 1 fight, 1 shot'd
First set is recount without shields, 2nd set is recount with shields. Shields were placed only on tanks and targets who had been frostblocked.
http://i39.tinypic.com/kcdn4n.jpg

In almost every instance, PW:S accounts for nearly 30% of my "healing", and Divine Aegis accounts for ~15%.

Name ONE ability that other healing classes have that can altogether PREVENT damage from occuring and can be used VERY frequently.


----------------------------

On the topic of this version of recount I am using that includes shields...

You can find it here http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=68238

It has an issue with rounding atm.
Only your shields will show up (granted you have the glyph of PW:S)

Also.....yes, there is a problem in that each shield is counted as fully effective. However, its not like I go around spamming shields on random targets. Especially since I am the only one who's recount it will show up on. I'd be safe to assume that ~90% of the shields are effective.


P.S.- Disc priests should not be using Greater Heal normally, for a variety of reasons. Also, since shields play such a big role...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbuhxtMxoifRtcxdc
is virtaully the de facto Disc spec

[Kelesti]

A HUGE majority of you are missing the fundamentals of what Disc priest can do that NO OTHER can.

Preemptive shielding

Take the malygos fight for instance. which is a shining example of how a Disc can be used like no other healing class.

I have been able to 2 man heal it on 10 man (other healer was a shaman) on multiple occassions.

For phase 1:
Obviously the shaman cant cast while in vortex, thus as a Disc priest I was virtually keeping them up single handedly.

Yes, PW:S has a 15 sec limiter on individual taregts. However, overall, it only has a 4 sec CD.
With this in mind, I precast shields on as many as I can (~4 targets) before going into vortex, and throw out a PoM for good measure. Then while IN vortex, I throw even MORE shields out (and another PoM).

You are able to HEAL before damage even occurs. Good Disc players know precicely when and WHO to shield to make the most use of their PW:S and GCD.


Next is phase 2:
The Scions hit like a truck if you are not in an arcane barrier. As a Disc priest, you are able to preemptively shield PRIORITY targets.
In every attempt thus far, the other healer and myself have been hit while in transit. A PW:S makes the difference between living and dying (I shield other targets with low HP as well). Throwing a PoM further cements this INSURANCE.

In terms of reactivity, these shields have no equvilent. Imagine the delay of SEEING someone being hit by an attack, then CASTING a heal. Even if it were an instant heal, the delay still exists.

Then there's the Grobbulus fight.

Anyone who gets mutating injection on them...BAM! throw a shield on.
The resulting shield will ABSORB all of the damage.

Gluth fight: cast on kiters to prevent them from taking damage, getting debuffed, and getting stunned.


I think the main reason people don't see this is because PW:S and Divine Aegis are not included into recount/heal meters.


I currently use a modded version of recount that converts the glyph of PW:S into healing done, and crit heals into healing done (Divine Aegis)

Here are some typical results...

Naxx, Construct Quarter
In addition to using it heavily during Grob it was used during Gluth and Thaddius
Gluth fight: cast on kiters to prevent them from taking damage, getting debuffed, and getting stunned.
Thaddius: cast on tanks and priority targets such as healers and high DPS during polarity shift to ensure they dont die.
http://i44.tinypic.com/2196j4x.jpg

Naxx: Spider, Plague, Construct
http://i43.tinypic.com/b3swlh.jpg
Displays part of my tactic of....being grouped with the tanks durign trash pulls and RUNNING in with them and spamming Holy Nova. This not only heals but puts almost continuous shields on them.

KT, 1 fight, 1 shot'd
First set is recount without shields, 2nd set is recount with shields. Shields were placed only on tanks and targets who had been frostblocked.
http://i39.tinypic.com/kcdn4n.jpg

In almost every instance, PW:S accounts for nearly 30% of my "healing", and Divine Aegis accounts for ~15%.

Name ONE ability that other healing classes have that can altogether PREVENT damage from occuring and can be used VERY frequently.


----------------------------

On the topic of this version of recount I am using that includes shields...

You can find it here http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=68238

It has an issue with rounding atm.
Only your shields will show up (granted you have the glyph of PW:S)

Also.....yes, there is a problem in that each shield is counted as fully effective. However, its not like I go around spamming shields on random targets. Especially since I am the only one who's recount it will show up on. I'd be safe to assume that ~90% of the shields are effective.


P.S.- Disc priests should not be using Greater Heal normally, for a variety of reasons. Also, since shields play such a big role...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=bVcbuhxtMxoifRtcxdc
is virtaully the de facto Disc spec

Thanks for bringing this up again! Although the recount mod does round up a little too high. So far as Greater Heal and taking points out of Divine Fury, having a hasted Greater Heal (with Borrowed Time) is such a HUGE bonus out there that it's not that much a waste of 3 points when you need it.

[Deleted]

Disc is getting some love it deserves, eh? Let me ask you a question PizzaBaggle; I get that you hate discipline. I assume you hate Lightwell as well? Both got amazing buffs in 3.0.2 and have been lovely ever since. Only thing I regret, as being discipline, is that I don't have Lightwell. [Now, speccing disc with Lightwell.. talk about gimping yourself..]

Yes, I agree with you, most of the time Divine Plea nerf will be a joke for a nerf. Probably just lowering their overheal amounts. Sure, situationally the nerf will be considerable, and for PvP it's huge. But that's not the point. I agree with you.

However, as a discipline, my mana is as everlasting as paladin's. Sure, after 20 minutes of spamfest I could be oom, even with using Shadowfiend, but there is a reason I don't spamheal [unless fight requires it, in which case Rapture does the job and I'll have hard time going low]. Mana is not a problem for discipline any more than it is for paladin. I can cast my Penance to gain mana when I'm raidbuffed. That's without critting and DA. 3.1 spirit regen nerf will leave my mana situation totally unchanged, whereas paladins are getting a nerf, if only a minor one. Holy priests on the other hand, are getting more massive one. And in any fight I find myself being with 90%+ mana when holies are ~23%. That'd be Sapphiron fight, where I'm mostly raid healing, saving up Penance for tank needing quick heal in case paladin needs help. Why am I raid healing there? Because healing assigments aren't that strict there, and I know I can raidheal better than holy paladin can. Keeping tank alive isn't a problem for either of us, and PWS shines [I'll be waiting for PWB for /lol though] yet again.


I agree with you, yet again. Disc priest and holy priest debate is rather worthless. Holy priest will raidheal way better than disc, while disc priest will tank heal way better than holy does. Both are mediocre on other. Should I have to choose between holy paladin and disc priest there might be some fights that holy pally would do better, but most of the time I would pick disc priest to MT heal. 2nd healer would be holy paladin though. They team up extremely well. Imo, like it has probably been said; Disc priets > holy pally. 2x disc priest < 2x holy pally. All of those < disc priest & holy pally. Situation in which I would take paladin over disc priest would be one in which there is total lack of blessings, and assuming there'd be holy priest already giving stamina. But that would mean that there'd be only one paladin. 10mans don't require such maxing with buffs and you can easily just take disc priest over holy priest for better utility in the first place.


In the situation, sure, paladin Bacons MT and heal himself.
Disc priest can do one of the followings;
1. PWS tank -> Penance tank -> Desperate Prayer and you're left with +25% haste on whatever you need to do next likely top the tank.
2. Penance tank -> PWS himself -> Gheal [+inner focus] or flash the tank.
3. PWS & Penance tank -> heal himself with flash.
4. PWS himself, Inner focus'd gheal on tank.
5. PI himself, cast Binding heal.
Should absolutely everything be on cooldown, which is amazingly rare thing to happen, especially since you are already prepared for possible fuckups in Sarth3D
6. Binding heal.

Holy priest has, discounting Guardian Spirit, as we discounted Pain suppression above;
1. Binding heal
2. Gheal tank -> gheal himself.

Granted, priest has even lower chances of surviving through Breath than paladin does, but that wasn't the point.


PWS/Borrowed Time isn't bugged. Penance is instant cast as it's effect starts immediately. Likely Mind Flay would not consume Borrowed Time debuff. I think it's intented. If that's not what you are talking about, then the bug is something I'm unfamiliar with and therefore not using it.



While Renew, PoH etc. are not exclusive for discipline, we have some diversity paladin lacks. Renew is crap atm though. Lets see what was likely meant in the situation: We have 10man group, for sake of simplicity, somewhy with 3 healers. While most 10man groups go with 2 healers, I'm fully aware, I'm sure you get my point out from this one. 1 holy paladin, 1 disc priest, ony holy priest are healers. Holy priest dies to something random and raid is taking damage.

Disc priest will excel holy paladin in raid healing in these moments, assuming more than two are taking damage. Both are capable of keeping the tank up squeezing in some extra focus and/or some cd, but it is obvious choice for discipline to swap raid healing for the extra versatility we have in our toolbox, which paladins greatly lack. Holy priest is amazingly better for raid healing, we all know that, but what if the holy priest dies and you're stuck with paladin and disc priest? Both equal in tank healing, in their own respective ways.


Izenhart: Renew is crap, sorry. And what can we do? CoH was ridicously op before cooldown, but now with it, you're mediocre choice for everything. 3.1, with PoH makes you good, assuming you are skilled and assuming you can still hold your mana after that nerf. With proper group and proper skills, Lightwell, CoH and welltimed PoHs, poms etc, holy priest can still excel shammy. But the fact is, at the moment average holy priest < average resto shammy in raid healing. Good holy priest > good resto shammy though, likely.
I've been thinking of going holy for a change, now that the silly CoH spam has faded. Not because discipline would be bad, or holy would be good, rather for nature of my playstyle requiring me to not get stuck with one view and try to stay unbiased for either. Sadly what's prohibiting me is the fact that disc gear =! holy gear.




Oh, and for the 3 new posts while I was replying.. paladins have their Sacred shield, altough it is lackluster in terms of effectiveness. Doesen't seem to proc all that often, or that's the cry I hear every now and then.

[Iwachiten]

On the topic of Greater Heal vs Flash Heal...

Agree'd in that it does produce a larger heal and a resulting larger crit/shield.

It limits Disc priest in 2 ways...

1) Reduces reactivity
2) Reduces procs/refreshes of Grace and Inspiration: It's TONS easier to proc and MAINTAIN Grace and Inspiration on 2-3 targets if you use flash heal instead of Gheal (it quite possible to do with practice, using a combination of Flash Heal and Penance).




Flash Heal heals for 4-6k and costs ~773 mana. This is a refund of 168-252 mana, for a cost of 605-521 mana if heal is fully effective (wont go into additonal refund if a crit/divine aegis).

Greater Heal heals for ~9-13k for a cost of ~1236 mana. Mana refund of ~378-546 or a cost of 858-690 mana provided the heal is fully effective (likewise).

Here is the kicker... For Gheal to be fully effective (none of the heal is wasted) the target has to have a sizeable portion of HP missing. For Flash Heal to be fully effective, the target has to has a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller portion of HP missing. So in theory, Gheal is cheaper and more effective than Flash Heal in HPS, but in practice, Flash Heal is much better. Especially in raids where heals are coming in from all sides, it is very rare you will land a fully effective Gheal. Even in 5man dungeons, do you really WANT the tank to be missing 13k HP? I dont think so....

Unlike Holy Priests, Disc priests only get mana return from EFFECTIVE heal, not OVERHEAL.

Flash Heal provides a more suitable heal to heal effectively and timely with little to no overheal in comparison to Greater Heal.

The 2-3X more Flash Heals you have to cast in place of one Gheal subsequently provides...

• 2-3X more chances to proc Divine Aegis (albiet a bit weaker)

• 2-3X more occurrences for Inspiration to proc.

• 2-3X more occurrences for grace refresh

Additionally, using Flash Heal over Greater Heal provides you greater Flexibility in responding to the situation.


I could see a developing compromise between the 2 though...Perhaps only using Greater Heal while under the effect of borrowed time.
However, I would hardly consider it worth 5 talent points to spec into Gheal. Not specifically because Gheal is bad, but rather...you have to give up other talent points in exchange.

[Deleted]

I could see a developing compromise between the 2 though...Perhaps only using Greater Heal while under the effect of borrowed time.
However, I would hardly consider it worth 5 talent points to spec into Gheal. Not specifically because Gheal is bad, but rather...you have to give up other talent points in exchange.

But the fact is that I don't have to give up other talent points. I don't use Renew, that's 3 points. Healing focus is utterly useless, I don't use 2 points. I need Inspiration from 3rd tier. Divine Fury is best choice for those fillers. Not good by all means no.


If I, personally, use gheal one of these conditions is met:
1. I'm out of combat and not engaging to anything. Can't be bothered to have 100% efficiency then.
2. I'm chaining gheal with Inner focus. More often chained with PoH, but gheal is other option. Rapture still works.
3. Borrowed time combined with tank having low hp and Penance on cd. Still not in danger of dying due to bubble bursting quickly, in which case I would spam flash until Penance or tank being save.

[zjinder]

speaking about healing meters a holy pala will win anyday thx to glyph of holy light (holy pala I raid with also tends to keep up judge of light)

having tryd both spec (holy and disc) mana isn't an issue in any spec currently can spam greater heal on a 5 min patch fight and end up at 70% mana as holy
granted I do need/use shadowfiend as holy

so id leave the mana out off it
pure healing power on single target I feel holy blows disc away
penance has a way higher hps then anythign else but it has a 8 sec cd
shield evry 15 sec (talking single target) does 2 (reckon 6k +glyph heal)
with those 2 on cd id take 10k greater heals(2sec cast) non crit +surge of light with 5-5.5k non crit flash over 4k flash heals evry sec or 8k greater heals even with divine aegis any day

and this gap will only become bigger when gear gets better

as for emergency
gaurdian spirit even if it doesn't proc also has 40 % extra healing received (25k gh crits) making it very easy to top a tank even from 100 hp and when it procs tanks are back at 15k-17k hp anyway making it the best tanksaver there is

pain surpresion doesn't even come close to that

don't think we can argue that holy is better in aoehealing so disc loses again

disc is definitly a viable spec
but as current situation it needs tweaking to its healign power exspecially

[Muhafalon]

I have, but you have clearly no idea about much of disc priests mechanics. You can get two hasted casts off of one PW:S.

You answered you own question there. They aren't unique to disc, so why talk about them as something disc offers. Clearly you're making the argument for bringing a holy priest for me. If the stuff that's unique to discs, holy pallies do better, and the stuff disc can do, so can holy priests, along with other useful stuff, well.

I've made my arguments at this point, and if you choose to ignore them, that's your own problem. I'll come back and see if anyone posted something sensible for why I would want to bring a disc priest over some other healer and for what role, and possibly a few responses, but that's about it.

Still full of yourself. Maybe there is a bug i never gave it much thought since i rarely need anything more then the shield and penanace, but it doesn't consume the buff for any instant cast or channeled spell. I'm not sure if that is a bug, but assume it was by design, If it is indeed a bug I'm sure it will be fixed as it should be, but won't change the strength of the build. I like how you bypass my entire comment, which I know I proved my point, to pull out 2 comments to twist around. Fact still is pallies don't have party heals or hots, so no I didn't "answer my own question." While those spells aren't exculsive to Disc, holy priests aren't as strong at tank healing disc is AND has near the same raid healing mechanics.

This is the same bs that was thrown around about shadow early in BC and all due to meters. Eventually everyone that wasn't fail saw past what they were used to judging a spec by and saw the value to be worth the raid spot. I'm sorry for you that again you will be behind the curve, where every intelligent raid leader sees the value of having one disc priest in the raid. I have proven the worth of disc pointing out only a few of it's talents, others have mentioned others. If you still want to min/max go for it, but it has been said many times over that the intent of the devs at this point is to do everything to avoid such need. If you honestly are going to ignore even dev's reporting it is a valid healing spec and one they are improving. So it might not be 120% right now it is still a good spec, and your attitude toward it being crap proves you are a fool. Your comparision as i've already said is just plain stupid, different classes, different specs, different play styles. The biggest difference I do see is every good holy pally I knew respeced out of holy due to boredom with the spec, many holy and shadow priests have respeced to disc because of it being a very enjoyable spec to heal with.

[Trickie]

with those 2 on cd id take 10k greater heals(2sec cast) non crit +surge of light with 5-5.5k non crit flash over 4k flash heals evry sec or 8k greater heals even with divine aegis any day

I hope your kidding here , or you were in a hurry but you can't proc SoL unless another spell before it critted.
perhaps you got the proc on a spell before that 10k Gheal but you didn't say so, thus making that sentence wrong

[insert random healing spell] crit that can proccing soL + 10k Gheal non-crit + SoL for 5-5.5k non crit flash heal, sounds more correct.

[Kelesti]

many holy and shadow priests have respeced to disc because of it being a very enjoyable spec to heal with.

This. The game is fun, that's what this whole thing's about. This spec brings an enjoyment I haven't felt since my first Bloodboil/Reliquary of Souls with 18/43.

[Evoelle]

I think that if you want to talk about the ups and downs between Disc and Holy in raid healing. My suggestion is to wait until 3.1 !

i.e Power Word:Barrier etc and other new features appearing for the Priest as a whole. Things may change and Blizzard have tried there upmost best to bring Disc into a mainline healing spec. Not just for healing tanks.

Blizzard have said before that they dont like guilds telling you how to spec for raiding, that you must follow their spec in order to be brought to a raid. It feels exactly the same between Holy and Disc currently, though I hope that they can keep their differences, while doing well in similar areas.

[zjinder]

I hope your kidding here , or you were in a hurry but you can't proc SoL unless another spell before it critted.
perhaps you got the proc on a spell before that 10k Gheal but you didn't say so, thus making that sentence wrong

I tend to keep a surge of light proc running while on mt duty coh is pretty much a garanteed proc so I usualy have an instant flash heal ready always might some burts heal be needed.

should have mentioned it indeed

[Neeklus]

Disc is a fine spec. It lacks any instant group-"Oh Shit.." button that holy still retains, and I still find GS to be much more effective than Pain Suppression. Overall I'd consider Holy to be superior in versatility. Disc is a good tank healing spec. Maybe it will level out in 3.1. Holy does seem underwhelming at the moment, tho. So we'll see.

On a personal level Disc was too fiddly for me. Holy just seemed more natural. Having to monitor many more CDs and debuffs via disc just made it much more of a headache. It's easy on a single target, but multiple raid members... No holy is superior.

[Iwachiten]

pure healing power on single target I feel holy blows disc away
penance has a way higher hps then anythign else but it has a 8 sec cd
shield evry 15 sec (talking single target) does 2 (reckon 6k +glyph heal)
with those 2 on cd id take 10k greater heals(2sec cast) non crit +surge of light with 5-5.5k non crit flash over 4k flash heals evry sec or 8k greater heals even with divine aegis any day

Disc priest:
PW:S ~6k Shield + ~1.25k Glyph heal (1.43sec GCD, with 0 haste rating, 5% from enlightenment)
Hasted Penance ~15k heal (atleast 1 ALWAYS crits) + 2k Divine Aegis shield (1 crit) (1.4 sec cast with 30% spell haste[borrowed time+Enlightenment])
Hasted Flash Heal ~4k (1.04sec cast with 30% haste)
In total: ~20k Healing and ~8k Shields which are nearly if not FULLY effective.
28k in ~3.87sec, 7235 HPS

Holy Priest:
CoH (for instant Flash Heal / SoL proc) ~2k...with an extremely low probability of it healing tank (1.35sec GCD with 375 haste rating)
13.5k non-crit Greater Heal (1.79 sec cast with 375 haste)
5.5k non-crit instant Flash Heal from SoL (1.35 GCD with 375 haste)
In total: 15.5k Healing...all of which are direct heals and may actually be an overheal
19k healing in ~4.49sec, 4231 HPS

Once again, I'd like to emphasize that for the Holy priest's Gheal to be fully effective the target must be missing a rather large chunk of HP.
A Disc priest's penance on the other hand heals incrementally, during which, the target most likely gets hit atleast once giving it higher ratio of effectiveness in contrast to Gheal which heals all at once.
Also, the shields that are placed on the target are guaranteed to be used up if put on a tank in comparison to direct heals which may or may not be an overheal.

Lets increase the favorability for Holy priest and assume that Holy Concentration is on as well as change the order: SoL Flash Heal, Crit/Holy Conc Gheal, SoL Flash Heal. Hell, I wont even count the spell that was used to gain the first SoL proc into the time needed for the HPS.

5.5k non-crit instant Flash Heal from SoL (1.35 GCD with 375 haste...even with 30% decreased base cast time from Holy Conc[irrelevent since instant], it would be limited by the GCD of 1.35)
20k crit-Gheal Crit (cast time of 1.26 sec given 375 haste and Holy Conc...however once again, limited by the 1.35 GCD)
another SoL proc for a 5.5k non-crit instant Flash Heal (eventhough instant, still limited by the GCD of 1.35)

In Total: 31k healing in ~4.05sec
7654 HPS

Keep in mind that this was BEST CASE senerio for Holy...SoL proc to start, crit Gheal, and another SoL proc...
Compare this to what Disc does NORMALY for a HPS of 7235

Also....once again that is 31k of DIRECT healing, most of which is probably an overheal, especially the crit Gheal.
This is also assuming the Disc priest has ZERO haste.

Lets look at something more reasonable... A Disc priest with no Borrowed time for haste bonus, chain casting Flash Heal (4 of them) as filler between Penanace would yield...
Penance: ~15k heal (1 crit) + 2k Divine Aegis shield (from 1 crit) (1.9sec cast with 5% haste/enlightenment)
Flash Heal 4k (1.43sec w/ 5% haste of enlightenment)
Flash Heal 4k (1.43sec)
crit-Flash Heal 6k (1.43sec)+ 1.8k shield
Flash Heal 4k (1.43sec)
Penance: ~15k heal (1 crit) + 2k Divine Aegis shield (from 1 crit)(1.9sec cast)
53.8k in 9.52 sec, 5,651 HPS

[zjinder]

you seem to have way better gear then I do
(tho don't know how you get 13.5k greater heals while only getting 5.5k flash heals)
and penance has just as high probability to overheal as greater heal actually, the fist tick might not overheal but the 2nd and 3th might in same scenario as the target might just as likly get hit in the cast time of greater heal

my point was that when with penance on cd and shield has weakend soul the healing power of disc is very low

if comparing hp/s over a longer time frame with the numbers I get from my gear
counting in crit at the bottom

shield 7k (counted in glyph)1.3 sec
penance 8.4k 2.7 sec
flash heal 4k &#160; 3.7 sec
flash heal 4k &#160; 5 sec
...
penance 8.4k 12.4 sec
....
flash heal 4k 16.3 sec
-and it starts over-
shield 7k &#160; 17.6.sec

ignoring the last shield
10 flash heals have been cast 2 penance 1 shield
assuming 30% crit 2 &#160;penance bolts will crit and 3 flash heals will crit

total healing before aegis 71.6k
aegis assuming none overlap 2.64k
total 74.24k
over 16.3 sec
hp/s 4554,6

I know this is the almost worst case scenario for disc but on fights like patchwork were the damage is consistant and high tanks have to be topped up even at these time
maybe in current content this is not an issue but it could be at some point (altough I admit not very likly)

now for holy
over 16.3 sec
2 sec greater heal cast 10k each
thats 8 greater heals cast
80k healing done

assumming 20% crit 1.6 will crit
rounding down to only 1 crit
85k healing done
hp/s 5214,7
could be a little higher with a holy concentration proc

if you count in renew running balance will turn in favor of holy even more as renew ticks higher there


the hp/s output of holy is very consistent and always there when you need it while disc has extreme burst followed by a lower output
the overal hp/s would have even been lower if I just took the time when both penance and shield are on cd and your just spamming flash heal
although I have to admit that the shields are less likely to overheal

on the surge of light note if the tanks topped up you can easely use coh once to proc it
its also likely when spamming greater heal to have a surge of light proc running all the time

[cornflakE]

@ Zjinder:

Tell me ONE situation where I need 8 Gheals in a Raid with ~6-8 Healers.

@ Iwachiten:

Are you sure about those 30% Haste from Borrowed Time and Enlightment? Wouldn't 1.25 * 1.05 be correct? That'd be 31,25% haste.

[Iwachiten]

@cornflake actually...yes

The haste bonus from Enlighenemnt + Borrowed time stacks multiplicatively with each other giving 31.25% haste.
The result of which would boost Disc's HPS by a bit

Details details


@zjinder
Why would you use 5 Flash heals per penance? Penance is off CD around the time the 4th finishes.
Penance indeed has an 8 sec CD...However, that CD begins as soon as you started to cast Penance. This means that by time penance is done..you only need ~ 6.48sec filler (=8-1.52) if penance was hasted, ~6.1sec filler (8-1.9) if not hasted.

Also...you want to throw in a PoM after penance (for grace) but before Flash Heal.
PW:S> Penance> PoM> Flash Heal
This will net you a PoM with a 1.14 sec GCD instead of one with 1.43 sec. It will take effect from the haste of Borrowed Time, but will not consume it. While at the same time, it will allow enough time to cast your hasted Flash Heal.

------------------

Theory and practice are kinda worlds apart when it comes to healing.

In practice. I never stay focused onto soley one target.
I throw PW:S out to whatever is being hit (tanks) and whoever needs it in general (someone getting low hp, or priority targets). This boosts Disc's HPS by not only the shield/glyph amount, but also from the hasted bonus of Borrowed Time.

On a fight such as Patchwerk...I will shield the MT or OT as soon as it's off CD.
Also, I usually Penance 1 target and Flash Heal the others to maintain grace & inspiration on multiple targets (~10-12% dmg reduction based on armor of tank).
I believe this is a much more effective way for Disc to be used during this fight, provided you have the healers to support it.

I think for Disc...there is just too many variables and such to take into consideration on what can be done to arrive at a given HPS. Especially with shields being placed on other targets thrown in.

Personally...I prefer the preemptive playstyle of Disc more than the direct healing of Holy. I think there's a lot more strategy involved in determining who to shield and when, to prevent damage. As opposed to simply healing damage as you see it, or precasting a heal.

If you think of HPS in terms of Units of TIMEFRAME (when a heal is needed at a given CRITICAL span of time) the preemptive style of Disc really shows its worth.

Imagine a Holy priest casting 3 Flash Heals when everyone is at full HP that magically fly into the air and hover over the raid. When someone is hit, one of the Flash Heals hits them like a lightening bolt to heal them while the priest is off doing other things.

Thats exactly how PW:S works for Disc but better.
The Shields completely stop damage. In the given example above with the hovering Flash Heals...if the target was hit and died, it wouldnt be healed.

We can precast Shields to be used at a later time (30sec in advance) and do other things.
If you have Timeframe A(TFA) where there is realatively little to no damage activity and Timeframe B (TFB) where tons of damage needs to be healed....having the ability to preheal the dmg that will occcur in TFB while at TFA is pretty invaluable.

Even if Disc priest has lower HPS compared to other healing classes...It still has arguably the highest HPS in a given TIMEFRAME. Which to me is more important than raw healing output.