Worried about mana in longer fights with the 3.1 changes

[cafeine]

I really think our mana regen through Riptide was largely overpower... I could stand healing for like 10 minutes, and still be able to go without drinking between fights...
With a little more intell gems, replenishment should make it work, i'm not worried at all.

[Gweyr]

I'll take it you're talking about Rapture, and yes it's clearly not working as it should right now. Last night on a Sarth2d kill which took us forever, I had over 700 mp5 from Rapture alone. Clearly not working as intended when people stack int gear, but this change is rather retarded, since our only way to get mana back will be under a 15 seconds cooldown, with minimal returns. The math has been done extensively in the Discipline Priest thread in EJ, so I won't repost it here.

My point is that with all the crippled output Discipline has when compared to Holy, it's really a no-brainer to pick one to heal (regardless of your role). As it is, Holy has more power (which it always had) and more regen. I'm even tempted to say that the regen that is given to Holy spec is even greater than that which Discipline has right now.

Unless they change that crap Rapture, I know I'm going for the door number two when it comes to choosing trees.

[Nezoia]

Actually it could be nice to go OOM for a change. In a raid environment Mind Flay is practically free to cast, which feels a bit wrong.

Mana should be a concern, and weather to use a Wild Magic Potion or a Mana Potion should be part of the considerations per fight.

Along with re-introduction of clever use of Shadowfiend and Dispersion.

[Raptorg]

The concern lies in the healing tries..

Which takes a heavy hit from losing Serendipity and Rapture.

They shouldn't have changed the talents completely, but just weakened them, really.

Rapture with 2.5 mana on PW:S is definitely weakened, but it doesn't affect actual heals, so it's a bit overkill.. Because we can only use PW:S once every 15 seconds, so we gain like a half percent mana, every 15 seconds.. Providing enough intellect, that number changes(I'm unsure as to how much mana PW:S costs with the new talent)

That is, assuming the shield breaks..


I admit Serendipity was a bit.. badly designed, but Rapture was perfect for Disc, it allowed Disc to differentiate itself from Holy by stacking Intellect, while Holy focusses more on Spirit for mana regen and longevity.

[angerboda]

if you look quite well to the new design of rapture,
it clearly meens that you wont be a tank healer anymore, because of weakened soul you'll have to switch target to get the effect of rapture (meaning a 3 points 8 tier talent is used once in a 15 seconds row... look closely at the other 8 tier talents. "misery", "empowered healing" full time talents those one...)
yes you'll gonna say that there will be almost 3 tank, so okay lets say that i can put 3 shield in a row (for free in regards of the new rapture) then what will i do ?

i'm wondering how we will stack divine aegis with no mana regen (assuming mostly all disc priest have turned from spirit to intel/crit), i mean how can i cast heavy spell so as to stack divine aegis when those spells have not been buffed ? im must keep on getting more and more spellpower and crit to do that, but on the other side y must go back to spirit to keep mana regen at a normal state.

no need to say that holy get much more efficient effects from crit with holy concentration (boosting global mana regen) and with surge of light keeping the priest in a non casting regen state.
and on the other side holy also get mch more efficient effects from spirit *love* with spirital guidance.

to my mind even if wanting to think that mitigation is realy cool/efficient/usefull i doubt it realy match holy tree.

[Ananan]

Actually it could be nice to go OOM for a change. In a raid environment Mind Flay is practically free to cast, which feels a bit wrong.

Mana should be a concern, and weather to use a Wild Magic Potion or a Mana Potion should be part of the considerations per fight.

Along with re-introduction of clever use of Shadowfiend and Dispersion.

Indeed mana regen for some casters need to be tweaked as much as for the healers. Elemental shamans never seem to go below 85% mana even when they slack with Water Shield and Thunderstorm and that can't be very fun. Of course, that spec doesn't have anything similar to Shadowfiend, Mana Tide or Innervate to bring them back up if they do, but it still seems a bit too far off.

[angerboda]

i just realise the difference between the old and the new rapture.

old was : you gain up to 2.5% of your mana. meaning it hapends when your tank take full benefits of au greater heal crit and on other heal far less. even worse if you do over heal.

new is : you gain 2.5%. no less no more, and that for sure cool.

i got 23k5 mana buffed (i'm not fully geared yet) but to me 2.5 mana represent 580 mana and the new cost of power word shield is around that value (570)

on the other hand we are just given a 15% reduction cost on flash heal that was obviously our generic heal. that represent a 95 mana per cast reduction.

assuming you heal 2 tanks you can put 2 shields and then focus one (or the two if you want to but mind of grace) and spam flash heal.
(583x2+8x95)/3 mp5 = 640 mp5 that quite correct, half less than before at best, but still correct.

the real point is now where are the new scaling talents ? are we forever going to be the worst benefiters of our own gear ?

sorry for my english (i'm french. you know, that country so dumb with foreign languages)

[Ananan]

Ghostcrawler hinted that some more unrevealed changes will improve the throughput of discipline. So far I'm a little disappointed that Renew hasn't gotten any better for us, and I hope that it will get some love for disc too. A hot is great for tank-healing, it just needs a little buff. PW:S should scale with crit imo, we just got more crit from talents and more spammable shields.

[angerboda]

+1
crit for Power Word: Shield

[Kelesti]

if you look quite well to the new design of rapture,
it clearly meens that you wont be a tank healer anymore, because of weakened soul you'll have to switch target to get the effect of rapture (meaning a 3 points 8 tier talent is used once in a 15 seconds row... look closely at the other 8 tier talents. "misery", "empowered healing" full time talents those one...)
yes you'll gonna say that there will be almost 3 tank, so okay lets say that i can put 3 shield in a row (for free in regards of the new rapture) then what will i do ?

Not only that, but the Rapture mana gain has a 12 second cooldown, so you're screwed.

[angerboda]

look carefuly at how is written the talent.

Rapture (Tier 8 ) revamped. Now a 3 point talent. When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized with 1.5% of your total mana, and you have a 33% chance to energize your shielded target with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy or 32 runic power. This effect cannot occur once every 12 seconds.

this means the 12 seconds inner timer concern the energization of your target.
also meaning that if you play well YOU are the man energised by yourself, and YOU gain 500 mana by shielding you (for free)

[Kelesti]

look carefuly at how is written the talent.

Rapture (Tier 8 ) revamped. Now a 3 point talent. When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized with 1.5% of your total mana, and you have a 33% chance to energize your shielded target with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy or 32 runic power. This effect cannot occur once every 12 seconds.

this means the 12 seconds inner timer concern the energization of your target.
also meaning that if you play well YOU are the man energised by yourself, and YOU gain 500 mana by shielding you (for free)

So instead of shielding a tank, me being a good player is shielding myself to get less mana than I actually spent on the shield?

And from the look of things, both effects happen at the same time, which so far as tooltips go, usually mean you get the effect once, no matter how many targets you shield.

[onfire9123]

is it really less mana back than the shield costs? even with soul warding?

[misean]

Not only that, but the Rapture mana gain has a 12 second cooldown, so you're screwed.

I i rly rly rly hope that this This effect cannot occur once every 12 seconds. is about this you have a 100% chance to energize your shielded target with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy or 32 runic power and not this When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized with 2.5% of your total mana. Or we r trully screwed :
Anyway rapture in pvp can have quite interesting effect. When we use shield on ourself and shield will get used/dispelled we will get 4,5% our total mana?

[Mandible]

mmh wasn't the change to meditation supposed to give us the same regen while casting, but (obviously) nerf regen while not casting?

I just took a sec to check my regen with only ds applied, and in both cases it was a sorry sight;

1111 -> 649 while not casting (was ready for that change afterall)

385 -> 361 while casting. Not much of a difference you might say, but its still a large difference from it being "similar".

Regarding the whole 12 sec shield thing I agree its abit f'ed - seems to remove the entire idea of having it in the first place. Every 6 seconds would be ok, since you could only get it on every second shield or so.

[angerboda]

So instead of shielding a tank, me being a good player is shielding myself to get less mana than I actually spent on the shield?

And from the look of things, both effects happen at the same time, which so far as tooltips go, usually mean you get the effect once, no matter how many targets you shield.

first of all when there's a coma in an sentence it means there's two ideas.
you're true that both effect happen the same time, but if they where affected the same way by an inner cooldown like you say there would have be no coma in the tooltip.
seconds what's the f***ing problem about shielding yourself ? mind shamans shielding themselves with water shield, mind yourself casting hymn of hope in order to get few mana ? do you never cast spell that is not intented to heal the tank ?

[Kelesti]

first of all when there's a coma in an sentence it means there's two ideas.
you're true that both effect happen the same time, but if they where affected the same way by an inner cooldown like you say there would have be no coma in the tooltip.
seconds what's the f***ing problem about shielding yourself ? mind shamans shielding themselves with water shield, mind yourself casting hymn of hope in order to get few mana ? do you never cast spell that is not intented to heal the tank ?

When your Power Word: Shield is completely absorbed or dispelled you are instantly energized with 2.5% of your maximum mana, and you have a 100% chance to energize your shielded targets with 2% total mana, 8 rage, 16 energy, or 32 runic power. This effect (one) cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds.

If they were truly separate, there'd be a period. It's one effect, with two simultaneous outputs.

And at your second point: The Resto Shaman applies Water Shield on himself, which grants passive mp5, plus a mana return whenever they crit (Improved Water Shield). Theirs is also free. I spend mana to shield myself, in the hopes that I break even from that shield with a raid-damage hit that's big enough to break my shield? Having it fall off doesn't count as being "dispelled". And in all honesty/fairness, I macro'd Pain Suppression to Hymn of Hope, so that I could use it before, which is now supposedly removed from the game.

Even that was better than this garbage.

[Neeklus]

Indeed mana regen for some casters need to be tweaked as much as for the healers. Elemental shamans never seem to go below 85% mana even when they slack with Water Shield and Thunderstorm and that can't be very fun. Of course, that spec doesn't have anything similar to Shadowfiend, Mana Tide or Innervate to bring them back up if they do, but it still seems a bit too far off.

I always thought Paladins needed to be smashed with the nerfhammer. Our holyP heals a rediculous amount without really ever getting low.

[XtreO]

As for me, I see no problem at all. I finish every fight I've done (haven't done Sarth with dragons mind) with more than 60% mana. So far I've more or less gemmed for int because I like having a large manapool - but it'd be nice to actually have to take a look at my manabar, something I haven't done in a since my first epic as disc.

Disc regn at the moment makes my char too simple to play, I can spam whatever spells I like, as long as I have a shield on a tank and get replenishment I sometimes doubt I could go oom even if I really tried. Fun thing is, my gear on the priest (an alt) isn't particularly good. I can imagine the well-geared disc are laughing at the resto druids even more than I am.

[Ananan]

I'm not entirely sure that I like the new Rapture yet, but I do like the change from getting mana by effective healing to cheaper spells. With that change and Aegis stacking, you can do more spammy tank-healing. Sure, you could easily get away with spamming like crazy before the change, but the design didn't really support it.