Hand of Uther - The problem solver (Ret)

[Benedictous]

So I have been reading quite a lot of post about our damage and PvP utility, both have been a problem since after beta. I think I came up with the solution a little while back. (Skip to the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you don't care about any of this)

Well as a little back-story I made a lot of talent trees before WotLK talent trees were announced, but one was my favorite and I tried to get as much feedback on it as I could. But first, lets take a look at what the paladin problems are/were in PvP and PvE.

PvP :
No distance closer
Out of Mana, can't risk healing or be OOM
No interrupt
No utility at all, just smash things

PvE:
No mana
Not enough dps


It contained a number of changes that even Blizzard used: first I had a talent that increased SoC proc rate by 30% (is now a glyph for 20%,) second I had a talent that converted STR --> Int to allow warrior itemization (still needed in my opinion but blizzard thought they found a way around it with JotW,) and third I had Hand of Uther, the 51 pointer. My complaints with this tree are, and everyone and their mom said the same things: 30% increased SoC is overpowered, more Intellect only postpones the problem (I added a JotW like affect but it was tied into the damage of your crusader strike and there was no replenishment but then people said we would just be spam healing everything in sight,) and Hand of Uther is just retarded overpowered, could be we will find out again won't we?

Now I admit that JotW was a good solution for mana problems but I still see Int as a stat needed by a mana using class, hell we are the only ones without it.

What made me post this again is my complete dissatisfaction with Divine Storm. When it first came out I was put in my place because it was holy damage and it hurt so bad our other problems didn't matter. Now with my Jawbone I'm lucky if I see 2.5K crits with it at 80 on a fully debuffed mob, when at 70 I was getting upwards of 4k. So I am saying can it, its a dumbed down whirlwind and the new glyph, 40% healing of 1K non crit divine storm when I have a MS affect on me anyways is not worth it (give me utility!)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why not put them into the same abilities, utility and damage. It begins with Crusader strike, our bread and butter.

Crusader Strike - Does 110% of weapon damage and applies Regret on the target, stacking three times and reducing movement speed by 10%, 15%, 20%. Also increases holy damage taken by 5%, 7%, 10%. Last 10 seconds.

Hand of Uther - 15 yard range. 10 second cooldown. Slams the target with Uther's divine judgement, causing X Holy damage and interrupting spell casting / preventing any spell from that school from being cast for 4 seconds. (Now here's the kicker that put the twist in it that made me like this talent so much I'm still pushing it.) Increases damage done by each stack of Regret on the target, and consumes all stacks when cast. Can only be cast when Regret is applied on the target.


So with these two abilities I addressed three of the problems with Retribution paladins. First there is a snare, a distance closer but not overpowered in any way. Second there is a damage increase, that also increases the damage of our Conc , Righteous Vengeance, Judgement, Exorcism, and Hand of Uther. Finally the interrupt, what I have always wanted on my paladin and was shamed when they gave 2 interrupts to DK's, not only does it interrupt but it causes damage. But you just can't turn around and spam it on a healer when you are hitting their DPS; no you have to be hitting the target or have hit it recently to interrupt. You actually have to THINK to use it, in PvP (there is no thinking in PvE for Ret paladins besides blessing of sacrificing the tank and using bubble or casting freedom on someone stunned.)

Mana issues, as GC has stated, can be fixed with tweaking of JotW.

So I ask all senior paladins, and I know if you have played a paladin as long as I have you can say, WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR?

[Askan]

well a spell interrupt every 10sec plus hammer of justice(talented at 40s) its very op =x

i liked your crusader strike idea, even at 0% / 5% / 10% reduced movement would be nice. in my opinion crusader strike should have an extra effect based on what judgement you are using

[Tigercat]

How can you call something that's better than whirlwind a watered-down whirlwind?

/boggle

[Byronyk]

Understand OP, you're talking not to the vast majority of the senior paladins, but the large community of complainers. Your idea is quite sound and interesting, but you do realize even the mention of an interrupt will be shot down because of HoJ.

Then again, look at DK's. Goul stun, interrupt, silence. Compare burst to each class and you will find it's not that different from a ret paladin. My terribly geared feral druid (Compared to my full BiS paladin) puts out insane burst and they're buffing us next patch! For example, a ret paladin trying to kill a geared healer is rediculous. When i was holy, i just laughed and sat back while they beat on me. As the seasons in Wrath goes on, ret's only ability to win (burst) is going down and down. We need utility to compensate.

Good idea, you have my support.

Best regards,
Byron

[Slade]

DS - It's not better than whirlwind dps-wise.

[xaviour]

Repetance is your distance closer.

[Saurus]

Or u could just make RV stackable .. for 10% weapon dmg x5

then use exorcism which burns off all the RV and does 200% of RV damage.

[Slade]

I support a new pvp utility and always have. Blizzard has given us alot, and frankly more than I could have hoped for... I think we're in a pretty good place in PVE for now. But for all the new talents and improvements, PVP is still a place where we just run around hoping to out DPS the opposing healer's output... the occassional stun and repent rarely makes for a game winning utility. Several other classes' utility (mostly CC) are, however, game-winning abilities.
Overall, WoW is not a great pvp game... it's a heavy pve and social interaction game. Peeps would be happier with more attention to PVE, and it would cause much less drama than is the case now when classes are tweaked and nerfed because of some elite bracket of arena players. If you want PVP there are other, better games for competitive, arena type matches. I believe Blizz's impossible goal of trying to chase the assymptote between PVE and PVP to reach a balance is folly and usually hurts the PVE experience in the end. BGs are/were the best pvp content in terms of pvp not influencing classes in pve.

[Abandon]

Ret already has a distance closer and an interrupt, the problem is they are on too long a cooldown. If they halfed the cooldown and duration of repentance and HoJ it could help, although would require some talents to be readjusted.

[Omgitschris]

Ret already has a distance closer and an interrupt, the problem is they are on too long a cooldown. If they halfed the cooldown and duration of repentance and HoJ it could help, although would require some talents to be readjusted.

Halve the CD and duration of repentance but not HoJ. Or if you do reduce both on both spells then make it a new talent or combine in a talent for Ret.

[Kawasaki.gdm]

I was allways on favor to give rets a mana drain ability.

Warriors, rogues, hunter have a MS effect - reduces healing done by 50%
lock, hunter, priest have a mana drain spell

Druid, mage, DK have good CCs and utility, like Ciclone, roots, sheet, spellsteal, silence, interrups, blink, distance closer and more and alot of burst also.

Pally has Burst, long CD stun, we have good utility with hands, but thats it. Its just impossible to kill an equal geared healer.

If we cant kill them with burst, lets make they get oom.

Crusader Strike - Does 110% of weapon damage and applies Regret on the target. Under the effect of Regret all spells cost 50% more mana, and all atacks/healing made by the regreted target will heal the paladin group (up to 3 raid members) for 5% of damage/healing done (healing will be split in group/raid). Last 10 seconds.

Its good for PVP and VERY GOOD for PVE.

Who wouldnt want a ret pally in the raid, so 5% of boss dmg will heal the entire raid. I know is not that much, but it helps alot. For exemple: boss does 10k every 2sec on tank and 20k to all raid every 2 sec. Will heal 5 ppl in the raid with the lowest % of health. In this exemple will heal for 500 each person every 2 sec.

Whay you guys think?

[Spamor]

i just saw the animation of Hand of Uther in my head.

We all know falcopunsh, well make it a golden color Falcopunsh the same size as in

Nintendos Super Smash Brothers. And causing your paladin to Scream "Utherpunsh"

Sry the idea just overwhelmed me there

[Tigercat]

DS - It's not better than whirlwind dps-wise.

They're the same ability, except DS also heals. It's kinda like how Shield of Righteousness is superior to Shield Slam in pve, just doesn't have the advantage of dispelling in pvp >.>

[Dyo]

So I have been reading quite a lot of post about our damage and PvP utility, both have been a problem since after beta. I think I came up with the solution a little while back. (Skip to the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you don't care about any of this)

Well as a little back-story I made a lot of talent trees before WotLK talent trees were announced, but one was my favorite and I tried to get as much feedback on it as I could. But first, lets take a look at what the paladin problems are/were in PvP and PvE.

PvP :
No distance closer
Out of Mana, can't risk healing or be OOM
No interrupt
No utility at all, just smash things

PvE:
No mana
Not enough dps


It contained a number of changes that even Blizzard used: first I had a talent that increased SoC proc rate by 30% (is now a glyph for 20%,) second I had a talent that converted STR --> Int to allow warrior itemization (still needed in my opinion but blizzard thought they found a way around it with JotW,) and third I had Hand of Uther, the 51 pointer. My complaints with this tree are, and everyone and their mom said the same things: 30% increased SoC is overpowered, more Intellect only postpones the problem (I added a JotW like affect but it was tied into the damage of your crusader strike and there was no replenishment but then people said we would just be spam healing everything in sight,) and Hand of Uther is just retarded overpowered, could be we will find out again won't we?

Now I admit that JotW was a good solution for mana problems but I still see Int as a stat needed by a mana using class, hell we are the only ones without it.

What made me post this again is my complete dissatisfaction with Divine Storm. When it first came out I was put in my place because it was holy damage and it hurt so bad our other problems didn't matter. Now with my Jawbone I'm lucky if I see 2.5K crits with it at 80 on a fully debuffed mob, when at 70 I was getting upwards of 4k. So I am saying can it, its a dumbed down whirlwind and the new glyph, 40% healing of 1K non crit divine storm when I have a MS affect on me anyways is not worth it (give me utility!)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why not put them into the same abilities, utility and damage. It begins with Crusader strike, our bread and butter.

Crusader Strike - Does 110% of weapon damage and applies Regret on the target, stacking three times and reducing movement speed by 10%, 15%, 20%. Also increases holy damage taken by 5%, 7%, 10%. Last 10 seconds.

Hand of Uther - 15 yard range. 10 second cooldown. Slams the target with Uther's divine judgement, causing X Holy damage and interrupting spell casting / preventing any spell from that school from being cast for 4 seconds. (Now here's the kicker that put the twist in it that made me like this talent so much I'm still pushing it.) Increases damage done by each stack of Regret on the target, and consumes all stacks when cast. Can only be cast when Regret is applied on the target.


So with these two abilities I addressed three of the problems with Retribution paladins. First there is a snare, a distance closer but not overpowered in any way. Second there is a damage increase, that also increases the damage of our Conc , Righteous Vengeance, Judgement, Exorcism, and Hand of Uther. Finally the interrupt, what I have always wanted on my paladin and was shamed when they gave 2 interrupts to DK's, not only does it interrupt but it causes damage. But you just can't turn around and spam it on a healer when you are hitting their DPS; no you have to be hitting the target or have hit it recently to interrupt. You actually have to THINK to use it, in PvP (there is no thinking in PvE for Ret paladins besides blessing of sacrificing the tank and using bubble or casting freedom on someone stunned.)

Mana issues, as GC has stated, can be fixed with tweaking of JotW.

So I ask all senior paladins, and I know if you have played a paladin as long as I have you can say, WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR?

sure m8, w/e you say
get your slow and distance closer as soon as you delete hof and 15% movement speed
get your spell interrupt as soon as you get rid of hammer and repetance and seal of justice

but oh w8, lets be fair, shall we?
lets give warriors 15% movement speed
30% slow/root duration reduction
magic dmg
30 yard execute that always crits and deals magic dmg but ofc cant be reflected
25 sec stun removal along with 16 sec movement imparing effects immunity
-20% to enemy stats
retri aura
eye for an eye
did i miss something?

Paladins are fine, sure in pve their dmg is to low but fuck me if they need anything in pvp...as they wouldnt be strong enough...
my advice, l2p instead if you whine about lack of interrupts or distance closers, better think what you have that others dont...
O and btw, buff ret dmg output, im fine with that, jsut remove eye for an eye and retri aura then cause it will give ret way too much dmg in pvp.

Pally has Burst, long CD stun, we have good utility with hands, but thats it. Its just impossible to kill an equal geared healer.

healer cant kill you himself cause you will overheal his dmg with instant fols and divine storm
only healer that can beat you probably is priest thx to mana burn but in 1/1 situation in current pvp situation i hardly can see priest mana draining ret effectivly when ret is bashing on him

[Karmian]

ok, now take you brain out of your jar and read what u have writen a frost amge rapes a paladin in pvp eye for an eye and retri aura are our only way to havea chance to cause some dmg

and about healers yea thats true we don't have enough damage output to kill a healer

warrior's execute can crit for up to 15k a paladins hammer barely crits for 6k with wings also they have charge intercept fear and snaring immunity NOT dispellable

DKs can silence counterspell pull u to them and cause an aamazing damage

anyways i think u got the idea if u will read this while having the brain from the jar

[Goosfraba]

So many holes in this.

CS is more an extra attack when compared to Judgement, which is the real 'bread and butter'.

Talking about closing the distance makes me think we're talking more PvP than PvE (I've never had a problem with PvE in WotLK, so I'm not going to pretend to understand anyone else's PvE problems). Anyway, we have Repentance, Divine Purpose, Pursuit of Justice and Judgment of Justice. It's not always about the snare on your target. You're making them run at 100% speed while you cannot be snared and have a 15% movement bonus mounted and on foot.

No mana in PvE means you're not using your regenerative abilities effectively or not using SoB/M. If you find yourself /oom, throw Seal of Wisdom on yourself and just auto-attack and judge for a short time until you have mana. I rarely need to do that, and only on some boss fights.

Sounds like the issues you have with the retadin are more personal problems than class problems. If you use your abilities effectively you'll rarely have a problem.

Out before serious TL;DR

[Adamson]

but oh w8, lets be fair, shall we?
lets give warriors 15% movement speed - Boot enchant
30% slow/root duration reduction Um, hamstring?
magic dmg
30 yard execute that always crits and deals magic dmg but ofc cant be reflected Execute
25 sec stun removal along with 16 sec movement imparing effects immunity Paladin partner
-20% to enemy stats Mortal strike is 10x better
retri aura ~100 dmg? lolthorns
eye for an eye Few rets spec into it.
did i miss something? No, there's still just as many fury warriors as ret paladins in the top 1000 2's teams

Rets aren't overpowered in pvp. Period. Dk's, hunters, and holy paladins are.

www.sk-gaming.com

Look at the top1000 2's teams, rets aren't very well represented. neither are any warriors.

[Jaromir]

If they halfed the cooldown and duration of repentance and HoJ it could help

I loled

You want HoJ on 10 sec CD or what....

[Adamson]

I loled

You want HoJ on 10 sec CD or what....

That would make them more like druid stuns.

Oh wait.

[Kawasaki.gdm]

healer cant kill you himself cause you will overheal his dmg with instant fols and divine storm
only healer that can beat you probably is priest thx to mana burn but in 1/1 situation in current pvp situation i hardly can see priest mana draining ret effectivly when ret is bashing on him

Yeah, right!!

Try to beat a healer with 900+ resil, he will just /sit /laugh. Becose your 6k crits will do 4.5 on him using blood, and your big Command Crits will do 3k dmg. If you will be able to crit at all with this high resil.

Most decent healers have over 20k health and 1700 Spell power, any flash/lesser heal can crit for 5k-7k. It impossible to kill one, in 1v1 situation, in 2v2 situation you have a shance with a shammy partner interrupting heals and doing lava busrt (with is insane dmg and allways crit), combined with timed stuns.