Hardcore haters ulduar and nerdrage

[charbelcher]

Firstly pointing out I am no hardcore player, raiding 2-3nights a week.
If you think casuals deserve to get as much as hardcores, just because they like the game just as much, then do this.
Go to your full time job employer and ask him for the same salary as "Pete" over there that works 10hours more than you a week.
Hell you like the work just as much as he do, right?

It is natural to me that if you put more effort into something you will get more out of it.

First you are comparing a hobby to life. The two are different. Second you paying for this hobby and by your statement you think its perfectly fine to make it impossible for the person who plays here and there just because they do other things more be it work, wife, kids, school. We pay the same, like the game the same, why should your ability to be a better gamer position effect the ability to achieve the same thing?

[Tigercat]

Also I'm worried that folks have "forgotten" how to raid a hard instance. The ease of Naxx is going to shock the hell out of some facerolling DPSers when they're eating dirt.

Sheep, sap, focused fire, target icons, kill orders, wow all that stuff comes back and theres going to be guilds dropping like flies. I'd imagine plenty of /gkicks too.

So if Naxx is "raiding 101" why didn't it teach any of that? Oh I get it, first lesson, PHAT EPIX.

It's ok, Blizzard will continue designing bosses that can be facerolled while putting the real encounters as "hard modes" for people that actually know what they're doing. I don't see it as normal and then hard mode, I see it as easy mode and normal.

[charbelcher]

Sheep, sap, focused fire, target icons, kill orders, wow all that stuff comes back and theres going to be guilds dropping like flies. I'd imagine plenty of /gkicks too.

I think this was just a fun period. We all love some AoE and I think this was its time to shine. I'm sure CC will be back with vengeance as they make encounters that make the tanks take 10-15k dmg from 5 mobs...No CC there = dead tanks.

[charbelcher]

It's ok, Blizzard will continue designing bosses that can be facerolled while putting the real encounters as "hard modes" for people that actually know what they're doing. I don't see it as normal and then hard mode, I see it as easy mode and normal.

Blizzard stated that 3d Sarth was and I quote "testing the waters" Uldar will be packed with that and so much more. And the fact that we have to complete 4 different hard modes to get to a special hard mode might make it pretty difficult.

[RestoRiven]

I really really hope all the hardmodes have awesome loot tables as well.

I don't know about all of you but I'm tired of my "WoWheroes zomg best druid gear on server" looking exactly the same, or worse than alot of peoples alts.

I want to see some damn BLING! I think I'm "entitled" after wearing my atrocious spaulders of catatonia for months.

*edit*

Just saw this on MMO's frontpage from GC:

Ulduar has more items than all of BC's raids put together, and that's with gear consolidation

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!

[Blacklabel]

I think that ppl who spend more time working harder in real life should be rewarded more then ppl who dont work. And ppl who study harder and longer should be rewarded better.

And so I think ppl who invest more in WoW should get rewarded better. And so what?? Why do ppl that do less get yealous of ppl that do more? If you want to achieve the same thing as ppl who do more, then YOU should do more.
If you cant or dont want to then be content with the things you can get and stop whining.

[Jigsore]

First you are comparing a hobby to life. The two are different. Second you paying for this hobby and by your statement you think its perfectly fine to make it impossible for the person who plays here and there just because they do other things more be it work, wife, kids, school. We pay the same, like the game the same, why should your ability to be a better gamer position effect the ability to achieve the same thing?

So, you mean that in hobbies people who devote time to it and people who don't should be equal?

Lets take an example.. as I spend most of my summers playing golf.. following your ideas, people who play golf once a week should be equal. Good luck finding a "hobby" that works like you think.

[RestoRiven]

First you are comparing a hobby to life. The two are different. Second you paying for this hobby and by your statement you think its perfectly fine to make it impossible for the person who plays here and there just because they do other things more be it work, wife, kids, school. We pay the same, like the game the same, why should your ability to be a better gamer position effect the ability to achieve the same thing?

Mirriam Webster says:

achieve
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈchēv\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): achieved; achiev·ing
Etymology: Middle English acheven, from Anglo-French achever to finish, from a- (from Latin ad-) + chef end, head — more at chief
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to carry out successfully : accomplish <achieve a gradual increase in production>
2 : to get or attain as the result of exertion

[arenascrub]

The only weapons stupid people have are time and patience; the real gifted ones just do their thing. No matter how hard you study music or painting if you don't have it you will end an average musician or painter. This applies to almost everything in life so I don't give a shit about your study harder and longer theory.

Of course if you lack the brains you need to read the same page 10 times over, sorry but bad for you. By saying "people who devote more time should get more out of the game" is like admitting you are stupid because time is not a measure of skill, time is the weapon of the untalented.

No matter how hard a raid encounter is if have the time to wipe endlessly in it, you will eventually make it and more or less we are all fucking monkeys since we read our StratsFu or Bosskillers guides and then go kill the imba hard boss that does nothing unpredictable and then act like we’ve accomplished something.

Reality check is that the boss will do the exact same things tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that… Do you remember the arena like encounter in MgT? That was fun because it was fairly unpredictable and was always a joy seeing top PvE players fucking it up every time because you know that encounter was not like stick to your 123 DPS rotation, don’t stand on the grey stuff, don’t overagro, the typical monkeylike WoW mentality, it was more about use the tools you have to buy time, to save your healer and stuff like that. No wonder some hardcore PvErs cried like babies for something that was a real challenge.

[Lac]

Simple way to fix it so casuals get to see the content and hardcores get to wipe to their hearts content.

10mans - casual
25mans - hardcore

Balance the two for the casual and hardcore crowds and everyone's happy. The issue I have with so called "casuals" isn't that they get to see content and I'm no longer leet or any BS like that. The issue i have is this entitlement that they spout with their "we pay the same amount, we should get the same stuff". That is totally illogical. Lets say you buy a Final Fantasy game and I buy it too. It takes lets say 40 hours to finish with the difficulty ramping up the further you get into the game. To finish the game you will need to devote a lot of time to it. A casual player may never finish it whereas a hardcore player will because the hardcore is willing to devote the extra time to getting it done. Does this mean that the game should be easier so everyone can finish it? do we sacrifice the challenge of finish it and the sense of accomplishment just so everyone can get to the end? Doesn't making it easier diminish the pride you feel upon completion? That's the main issue, completing content doesn't make you feel like you have done the hard slog and gotten to the end of the game.

Make 10 mans for casuals so they get to see the encounters. If they want to see the harder versions then they will need to devote more time to the game, put together a larger raid and do 25 mans. That would be the best solution in my opinion.

[zsuper]

You can't raid from 8:00/9:00 PM to 12:00 AM?

Explain what part of your life prevents you from doing this?

If you're working that late at night, you're probably working some crappy job that was the only thing you could get. There aren't a whole lot of 'good' jobs that require hours like that. We have people in the guild who work these sorts of job. They're all college students who can't manage to get anything better.

Do you have something super amazing and awesome to do every work night during these hours? Almost everyone I know spends this time sitting in front of the TV. Chances are you do, too.
If you're spending time with your child, you're doing something wrong, since it should be probably be in bed before raid time.
If you need to spend 3-4 hours of every single night alone with your wife, you're too immature for a real relationship and shouldn't have gotten married. Incoming divorce when one of you gets bored of the other, because you're spending too much time together.


I'm 19 and I've been working as a software engineer since I was 17. I'm in my office from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM or whenever I feel like coming and leaving. I have a great boyfriend of four years. I'm the officer that forms the raid, distributes the loot, does recruitment, and fixes problems that cause wipes. We've been raiding since TBC launched, we've cleared all content, and I've have no trouble making almost every raid. I do all of this, yet I still have more than enough time for my work, friends, and boyfriend.
What's stopping you from having this sort of time? Unless you're a recent college graduate, i.e. completely horrible and worthless when put in real life situations, just like every other graduate in the world, it's really unbelievable that you don't have the time to raid 'hardcore.'
Even most casuals have the time, they just can't sit in a raid for long periods of time because they all have ADD.

Your excuses are bad.


In other news, let's take a moment to laugh at the person above who thinks any high end raiders had any trouble what-so-ever in MgT. Someone obviously hasn't seen Sunwell.


EDIT: Related note, casuals will still get cockblocked in 10 man content for the reason stated above. They can't stand to sit in raids for long periods of time, or even often; anyone who's tried to PUG a raid instance should know this. There are groups full of people who lose interest in the raid so fast that they can barely (or even can't) clear Naxx in a single reset. Ulduar is going to be even worse; if they can't stand spending this much time farming Naxx, there's no way they'll be up for spending hours learning a single boss.

[RestoRiven]

The only weapons stupid people have are time and patience; the real gifted ones just do their thing. No matter how hard you study music or painting if you don't have it you will end an average musician or painter. This applies to almost everything in life so I don't give a shit about your study harder and longer theory.

Of course if you lack the brains you need to read the same page 10 times over, sorry but bad for you. By saying "people who devote more time should get more out of the game" is like admitting you are stupid because time is not a measure of skill, time is the weapon of the untalented.

No matter how hard a raid encounter is if have the time to wipe endlessly in it, you will eventually make it and more or less we are all fucking monkeys since we read our StratsFu or Bosskillers guides and then go kill the imba hard boss that does nothing unpredictable and then act like we’ve accomplished something.

If you don't like the way raids work, or have ever worked in WoW for that matter, why are you even worried about this thread?

Yes, time does not equal skill. But practice makes perfect. I would in no way call continuous wiping on hard encounters anything but practice. If you notice after you get a boss on farm, it gets easier every time.

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work

-Thomas Edison, when asked about creating a working incandescent light bulb.

[Blacklabel]

Ppl who have talent by nature (gifted as you call them) will fall hard the time they have to do something that is to hard/difficult for them. Because they never leared to work hard for it, they fall hard and then whine because they couldnt do it...
(Ive seen this with extremely intelligent collegues who fail medschool completely because they never had to study anything in highschool and fail at the time they had to study for the first time during university)
So I still do think that ppl who work hard for it, deserve more.

[arel00]

To be honest, the only valid reasoning about raids is that BAD players do not deserve to see all the content.
But mark my words: bad and casual are a completely different thing.

Personally, I'm in a guild that now raids one night a weel. We get the reset, clear everything (including OS hard mode) and then slack for the rest of the week. Even at progression time, I hardly ever raided more than 2-3 days a week. By all means, I'm what you can define a casual.

That doesn't mean my guild is bad. We ought to stop this myth, now. If you stand in fire, don't watch aggro, have a 50% overhealing, can't manage tank cooldowns, can't focus targets etc etc etc, you're BAD. Even if you play 24/7.

To the OP: you're right. Casuals have all the rights to see all the game content. Time should not be a blocking factor. But skill must. We all live a life, and if I can spend only 2 nights a week on this game, but I'm good at it, I deserve to be able to see everything my skill allows me to. Skilless people have no rights tho, and here I'm 100% bitchy. This is a game, not a movie. Either you have the skill to win it, or you don't.

[RestoRiven]

The issue I have with so called "casuals" isn't that they get to see content and I'm no longer leet or any BS like that. The issue i have is this entitlement that they spout with their "we pay the same amount, we should get the same stuff". That is totally illogical. Lets say you buy a Final Fantasy game and I buy it too. It takes lets say 40 hours to finish with the difficulty ramping up the further you get into the game. To finish the game you will need to devote a lot of time to it. Does this mean that the game should be easier so everyone can finish it? do we sacrifice the challenge of finish it and the sense of accomplishment just so everyone can get to the end? That's the main issue, completing content doesn't make you feel like you have done the hard slog and gotten to the end of the game.

I really like this thought. I'm a big book reader. Imagine for a minute "casual book readers" petitioning different authors to "QQ shorten your book I paid the $20"

Another good analogy casual players might like: The golf course, another idea from a poster earlier. You want to play all 18 holes, great! You paid your greens fee. But don't expect to get Tiger Woods 3 iron.

[arenascrub]

I'm in my office from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM or whenever I feel like coming and leaving.

You call a 9:00 to 5:00 job, a real job and you are accusing people for nightshifts? You are just a tool, a company consumable and amongst the first to get fired when things go rough. Pass over middle management and then pop here to discuss how many hours you spend in the office.

In other news, let's take a moment to laugh at the person above who thinks any high end raiders had any trouble what-so-ever in MgT. Someone obviously hasn't seen Sunwell.

Oh, what's this "Sunwell Plateau" achievement done by my toon... Wtf it's proly a mistake, no wai possible that one. Can you really bare looking at your fat ass and your monkey faced boyfriend when the mirror god is doing a realty check on the ideal couple you two nobodies form… A 19-year-old giving advice on relationships, you haven’t even started kiddo. Wait till the lawyers become your best friends.

PS: I didn't say people had trouble in MgT. I said people where whining about the PvP mechanics (the element of surprise that is) of that particular encounter because it was derailing from the typical hop, hop 1,2 repeat after me animal circus mentality. Keep PvP to PvPers they said back then we don’t want randomness, we don’t want reactiveness, we want plain ol’ repetition.

[Noetic Concordance]

just my opinion. didnt read all so not sure if this has been posted.

you pay your £$ per month yes, we all agree. that does NOT however give you the RIGHT to see all of the game though . What it DOES give you is the right to TRY. to learn to get better but in no way does your subscription give you the right to complete the game just because you bought it.

[shadet]

You call a 9:00 to 5:00 job, a real job and you are accusing people for nightshifts? You are just a tool, a company consumable and amongst the first to get fired when things go rough. Pass over middle management and then pop here to discuss how many hours you spend in the office.

Ok.. So what you're saying is, the person you are quoting doesn't have any rights to talk to you about jobs, and life etc unless they spend more time working, getting older etc etc

So presumably you agree that people who raid 'hardcore' deserve to see more of the game? Because that would directly relate to what you said to the person you quoted... Which would also mean that you were indirectly agreeing with her..

So, errm, i'm confused by your trol.. *cough* post!

[Deleted]

If you aren't in my guild, working towards achieving a goal, or even in a rival guild, pushing us towards said goal, then...I don't give a shit who you are, what you experience, or if you even 'finish' the whole game, it doesn't affect me in the slightest.

But don't start collectively no-life-bashing 'hardcore' players because you are jealous of their lack of commitments and ability to juggle their schedule to make raid times. I've been on both sides of the fence and at the moment I've got too much free time and a good guild, so Ulduar is gonna be a godsend for a few weeks at least.

I see a lot of self-proclaimed casuals crying about their associations with bad players, so give us the courtesy you're crying out for yourselves.

Time constrained =/= Casual =/= Bad
Successful =/= Hardcore =/= No-Lifer

[cestrs]

If you're working that late at night, you're probably working some crappy job that was the only thing you could get.

If you're spending time with your child, you're doing something wrong, since it should be probably be in bed before raid time.

If you need to spend 3-4 hours of every single night alone with your wife, you're too immature for a real relationship and shouldn't have gotten married.

i'm sorry but those statements are just hilarious.

the people with the best jobs work around the clock, there' no 9-5 for them. 9-5 actually is the "crappy" job.

also, children all the way to 18 years of age go to bed before 19:00 yeye? right. and there is no other work to be done outside of that.

and yeah, coming from work and going raiding straight really is great on the relationship. oh my ...