Ardent Defender

[Evereghalo]

I just down loaded tankadin for the last week.

And in both weeks of hyjal, mally, and OS.

it seems almost worthless.

I mean I have never had it avoid a death on a boss fight, so unless in Ulduar (which is possible) it ends up being needed it does not seem worth it.


Thoughts?

[Adaran]

it isnt a bad thing to have honestly.

[Lynalis]

if you are MT get it; if you are off tank/aoe tank etc. then you can happilu skip it imo

[Narveid]

Personally I would get it, but thats me :

[cappytoi]

I just down loaded tankadin for the last week.

And in both weeks of hyjal, mally, and OS.

it seems almost worthless.

I mean I have never had it avoid a death on a boss fight, so unless in Ulduar (which is possible) it ends up being needed it does not seem worth it.


Thoughts?

it is situational, and a tank can face situational events sometimes. it is good to have but it can be dropped to get another talent to be able to satisfy another situation. getting is as an OT is better than having that as a MT. while i was tanking adds at sarth 3D i love to have it coz more than 10 adds are hitting me and healers ofc struggle sometimes to heal me (running from firewall/void zones etc.) but on the other hand when you are OTing patchwerk it sux. because patchwerk can 2-shot you. It is doable on thrash, and moderate amount hitting bosses. Moderate amount = at least gives you 2 more swings from boss of 35% of your HP. Assuming a 40k raid buffed HP, it is doable for less than 10k hitting bosses (If you have also 102.4 this amount will be up to 11-12k with block). but still this doesn't change AD 's situational nature.

[Zarcob]

it isnt a bad thing to have honestly.

^^^ simple and to the point.

What else are you going to get?

Divinity? It's nice to have but it's no more significant than the possibility of an AD proc.

Imp HoJ? haha

Reckoning? HAHAHAHAHAH

Honestly I've never liked AD much. It's always been "a little off" from being a good talent simply due to the nature of hits. You're far more likely to get a big hit that drops you to 15 or 20%, followed by something else that drops you to 0 even with AD kicking in, so it hardly makes much of a difference on a boss. Still, it can come in handy on AE tanking when the hits are smaller and come in faster and a tank's priority should always be survivability above all else.

I'd love to see it get a makeover but it's still better than the other options.

[Deleted]

In the "Oh Shit" situation Ardent Defender is the one thing that can save the whole raid from wiping. No, it doesn't help you at all in Naxx since it's too easy and you will most likely not drop that low in HP. But when learning Ulduar it'll be a boon, and well, it's extra mitigation for those situations when something goes pop.

Imho you'd be stupid to skip it. But as they say, opinions are like buttcracks: everyone has one.

[Chivas]

In situations where your tanking adds or a boss that doesn't hit for huge amounts of damage on each attack, it can be a very useful ability. It certainly isn't perfect by any stretch of of the imagination.

I don't really know what you'd take in place of it though. In tbc, there were times where you could drop it and go with the 40/21 build to get sanctity aura for a big threat boost, but in WotLK our threat is a complete non-issue, so I don't know what you'd want to take in place of it.

As for the tankadin add-on, I used it for about a week in tbc, and it showed Ardent Defender saving me quite a few times, even though some of those times I didn't think I was anywhere near being killed and I was extremely surprised by it. Then after the last night of raiding that week I went Ret to do some bgs with some friends, and didn't think about disabling tankadin, and I kept getting the message that AD had saved me, over and over again even when I didn't have it. Maybe I just had a bugged version or maybe it was recording all hits that I was taking below 35% health that didn't kill me and was awarding AD with credit, I don't know but I removed it and haven't used that add-on since.

[Zarcob]

The Tankadin mod's criteria for BC was merely that you drop below 35% and take damage.  It didn't matter if the damage came so quickly AD never actually reduced it.  Heck it made no difference if you were actually *spec'd* for AD or not.  And it certainly didn't matter whether the hit was actually enough to kill you without AD.  I don't know how or if the mod has been changed since, but common sense will tell you how limited in usefulness AD is, with or without mods.

[Raptorg]

Maybe it should reduce damage of attack that will take you below 35%(30?) health.

[Zarcob]

Yeah that suggestion was thrown around a lot back when they asked for class suggestions pre-WotLK. If I had to guess, I think they wanted to avoid that because it would mean on attacks that are designed to intentionally kill a tank, the paladin would receive their extra 30% mitigation still. For mechanics that were designed to drop players to 1%, the paladin would be at 31%. It likely posed a lot of design problems and technical limitations.

I'd rather have it as an active ability, but they don't want to make it too much like last stand. I'd maybe suggest something like an ability that lasts for 15 seconds and reduces the damage from attacks by 30%, provided the attack does more than 35% of the paladin's active health pool.

[Dekool]

Just get it.

[CookieEater]

Maybe it should reduce damage of attack that will take you below 35%(30?) health.

Well, they already gave Blood DK's that in Will of the Necropolis.

Anyway, AD is usefull for fast hitting bosses and/or trash mobs.

[archform]

for ulduar keep it
*for anything under naxx *you dont if your geared enough*

[Raptorg]

Well, they already gave Blood DK's that in Will of the Necropolis.

Anyway, AD is usefull for fast hitting bosses and/or trash mobs.

Gimmick fights and trash is serious business.

[Iselian]

You tested the AD-plugin with the Tankadin addon in Hyjal? *shrug* To each their own. I've kept an eye on my own, and seen the "Deaths Prevented" tick when my healers are getting diverted elsewhere. It's nice to have, not necessary for current content (probably), and will most likely be very useful in Ulduar.

As Zarcob said.. what else are you going to get?

[Deleted]

Gimmick fights and trash is serious business.

Only fights specifically suitable for paladins are more of a serious business?

[Arkians]

1 name for you:

Gluth

Besides, its never bad to have damage reduction, no matter how circumstantial it might be.

[Liquid_Beaver]

Two things. I have had the Tankadin mod with the AD tracker for a very long time without resetting it.

As of today I have taken 249,906,788,118 damage since I started the tracker.
Avoided Deaths - 1783
Percent Mitigated - 2.97%

Now, not only has it saved me from dying numerous times, like on fights like Gluth that someone else mentioned, its also nearly 3% mitigation, and I already have really good gear. On someone who doesn't have great gear, that number should be higher, or someone not getting optimum heals, something that happens a lot more than you self-horn-tooters say.

Secondly, currently when I get raid buffed I sit at about 43.5k hp. Ardent Defender is active as soon as I hit below 15,500 hp. That is a GIGANTIC window to be taking 30% less damage. Also, on fights where you may spend lots of time near that much health, pop bubblewall and you are taking 80% less damage. That is absolutely huge. Because of the AD+Bubblewall I have personally survived 11 seconds of Gluth's hard enrage, and allowed my group to down him.

The fact that it can be leapfrogged is not a valid argument if it also has the chance of NOT being leapfrogged as well.

Spend some time on Gluth, and like another person said, watch that Death Averted number tick away. Or Patchwerk. Or Maly. Or Sarth with any drakes.

There are a lot of places where this talent shines.

Also - With Ulduar coming out soon talents such as these that, depending on the number of swings a mob has against you, increase your Effective Health level, are even more worthwhile. New content is where the Effective Health theory and passive and offensive damage mitigation abilities are really going to make their mark.

Besides, its never bad to have damage reduction, no matter how circumstantial it might be.

Edit:P.S. Zarcob is an idiot. Improved HoJ is a perfectly reasonable thing to consider. During fights like KT, where interupting spellcasting saves your life, smart tanks don't blame the rogue for missing a kick, they act on the fly and avoid the issue altogether. Something like Imp. HoJ and the coming changes to Judgements of the Just make situations where tanks are dying due to lack of interupts are going to nearly fall off the map.

Divinity can be a serious consideration as well. Potentially it could increase the healing done to a pally tank BY a holy pally by 10%. This is not a trivial talent in the least.

Reckoning can be a serious increase in DPS and TPS. I personally take it because the ONLY boss that can twoshot me is Patchwerk, and he does not have the Parry-Haste mechanic. I will gladly take the increase in TPS and DPS over reduced stun duration talents, or other things that are predominantly PvP oriented. Granted this is when I don't spec into Kings, put the point till stands. Reckoning no longer = auto-baddie.

Disregard anything someone says if you can glance at it and are reminded of "LOLUSUK L2PALLYNUBZ!!!!1111 ICNSOLOSARTH3D".

[Offhand]

Yes, it's worth it on a few fights in Naxx (Gluth, Meaxxna) but it's equally true that we haven't seen many real tanking checks yet. Gear requirements for Naxx are a joke. So naturally, once we get actual gear the situation becomes even more silly.