Pally tanking with a wild warlock

[Risu]

I am looking for suggestions to generate threat on a lot of different targets quickly, especially ranged targets. The paladin is not my main so the amount of time allowed to spend practicing tanking is minimal. I don't have trouble holding single targets, but I struggle with 4+ trash mobs.

My pally's armory: Keko

I was tanking a Heroic UP while my husband was on his freshly dinged 80 and green-geared warlock. There are four pack trash mobs on the way there. As my avenger's shield goes off, the warlock seed of corruption goes flying over head. Next I concecrate and then SoR all while more seeds go out. As the first one explodes, it triggers the rest of them and I start losing mobs. He dies.

Next is the gauntlet to get the boss after next down. This has harpoon throwers that get clipped by the seed of corruption but are out of range for the concecrate, or there are more than 3 targets. He died here too... twice (we had a druid).

I am looking to learn how to play my paladin tank better so that I can generate threat quickly and hold aggro against burst AoE damage. I don't want to tell the warlock to wait (the term is "payback's a bitch") since I did the same thing to his druid tank. I feel it's saying "don't do your job because I can't do mine".

I'm willing to change rotation, respec, or go farm any gear available from heroics, VoA, or 10 man Naxx (this is an alt and doesn't make it into any other raids). I just want to be better at my job and looking for any suggestions that are available.

[Iselian]

There are a few things different with AoE-threat generation, versus single-target. First and foremost, forego the shield-slam unless you have a completely-free GCD. Priority should be...

Pull with Shield-toss => Run in, cons for more than 3, hammer for 3 or 2 => Holy shield (more threat than you'd think) => Cons if you haven't yet (hope you're in a comfortable spot), hammer if you cons'd earlier

There's one situational change you can make... on the gauntlet you mentioned, all of the mobs are undead. Holy Wrath is amazing in situations like that. It's a stun as well, so it helps you lock them all down around you for a cons if you can time it well. I'd tell him to wait 1 second before going, as well. 2 seconds may be too long to wait, but half a second could be half a second too soon.


If nothing else, have him focus on your primary target. Again, forego shield-slam, focus on cons, holy shield, hammer, and keep an eye if holy wrath will help (sense undead is win). Don't be afraid to use your shield toss during a fight, either, if it comes off of CD and you have the free GCD.

[Tybran]

Try a 5/58/8 Spec

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...rmoon&n=Tybran

My current talents via armory.

Also, if you don't, practice using your mouse to select different mobs in an AoE pack when you use Hammer of the Righteous and Avenger's Shield to spread the AoE damage out to as many mobs as possible, then switch back to your Judged target for the Seal benefit.

The 5 points in Seals of the Pure is also a good threat increase for you. Tank with Seal of Vengeance.

*edit* Minor brainfart on a spell name

[Crusemissile]

honestly just tell the lock to cool it. seed generates tons and tons of threat when it explodes which depends how much dmg output is going on. if the lock gets 3 seeds off they can essentially explode at the same time. Ik i have had seed crits to be huge, its hard for full naxx 25 geared tanks to hold anything if a lock will seed to early.

tell him to use rain of fire. the threat generation is a lot more even and you could have the time needed to gather a good amount of threat. then have him use seed.

[gherkin]

Information above is great for pally tanking, but heres some stuff from a warlock's POV.

1) Since your husband is the warlock, send him to me. Tab targetting seeds is a bad idea. You dot (agony, immolate) then seed the dps target then switch to shadowbolts et al when you have 3 or less mobs remaining. Seed explosions never damages the target you cast it on.

2) I am going to seed a target because you are a paladin and your damage will trigger it soon. Figure out which mob I'm targetting (bad warlocks tab target, as I said) and DONT HIT THAT ONE. Seed doesn't damage that one so you don't need to tank it.

3) Getting 3 procs of vengeance up is the same as another consecrate on that target. All it takes is hitting it so figure out a method to tell when you have enough procs up. Use fast weapons.

4) This is the most helpful macro you can have:

/cast [target=targettarget] Hand of Protection

You target mob and your UI tells you HOLY SHIT ITS GOING AFTER THE WARLOCK. Bam, hit this macro and they have Hand of Protection. They can keep casting and the mobs come back to you. DOES NOT WORK ON CASTER MOBS. DO NOT CAST ON MELEE, USE TAUNT.


You're doing good though. Keep it up and watch your vengeance dots.

[sanguineraven]

Personally I would have put those 5 points from Reckoning into Seals of the Pure.

What glyphs are you using?

Generally, an AoE pull for me would be

- Optionally mark skull
- Avenger's shield targets initial targets (skull included)
- Assuming you are not line-of-sight pulling you should already be running in, put Holy Shield up
- (Holy Wrath if undead)
- Hit a target not affected by AS with HotR
- Consecrate
- Judge a mob you haven't built threat on otherwise skull
- Start your 969 rotation

Make sure at some point you sort your positioning out so everything is in front of you whacking on your shield.

If you have more single target DPS, ShotR is great for aggro on your primary target so if you can fit that in it should give you 5 seconds to get all your AoE threat going before DPS get anywhere close to you on threat. Judging your first target is also a good opener as you run in.

As someone said, get your Corruption/Vengeance stacks up on as many mobs as possible, it makes a big difference.

[xourico]

err... next time use righteous fury? lol

no way in hell a lock can pull aggro from you just with 1 seed...

consecrate, hammer the mob on the left, avenger shield the mob on the right (so they bounce to nearby targets, so you build threat in 6 diferent targets instead of the same 3)

also, do not use avenger shield to pull packs that have mobs separeted, pull with taunt, then use avenger sheild when they are together for that aoe threat.

holy shield up + consecration is enough to keep mobs on me against aoe spells tbh...

[Daez]

People still do the gauntlet without cheating? Who knew.

Basically using all the moves you to pump out your aoe threat (con, avenger's, hammer of justice) is whats important. No matter what I still shield of righteousness the main mob. Mobs split threat so this does help on all mobs. Holy shield is the last thing I really worry about on trash, but I do always get it up.

My rotation is avenger's, con, hor, judgment, sor and holy shield. I always use exorcism and holy wrath if the mobs are undead.

[Risu]

Thank you all for the excellent suggestions. I think I'll try out Tybran's spec and switch up my rotation to get Holy Shield up sooner.

Unfortunately I'm not at home so I can't log in to see what my third major is, but I think it's Glyph of Judgement. I know the other two are Glyph of Seal of Vengeance and Glyph of Righteous Defense.

[xdwbx]

-The best build at the moment, imo, is how you have your build, except take those points out of reckoning (never take reckoning, it is garbage), persuit of justice, and benediction. I would then put the rest of those points in the Ret tree to grab conviction and seals of the crusader. The extra crit gave me a huge increase over taking seals of the pure. The damage you get from seals of the pure is very small considering it only applies to seals which you put on trash that dies rather quickly. All that crit applies to all of your abilities. Persuit of Justice is really nice talent, but if you are having threat problems, then it doesn't really help you on that end, so I'd drop it.I was a skeptic of the build before I tried it, and now I generally never spec otherwise for prot. With that build I'm getting around 30% crit in raids, and you definitely notice the difference across the board on threat generation.

-When I do AOE pulls, typically I try to start with avenger shield, and in the case of 3+ mobs, I usually switch targets to the one mob it didn't hit and judge>SoR or HotR it if the others have gotten close enough even with the daze effects of avenger shield. After that I'll typically drop a consecrate and hit holy shield.

-If you still have trouble keeping aggro and your husband keeps pulling despite all of your efforts to save him with taunts, hand of protection, and careful pulling...then let him die. A careless dps is a bad dps. If he is doing it on purpose then let his repair bill teach him a lesson.

-Good luck. Good tanking instincts and habits come with time.

[Daez]

Try a 5/58/8 Spec
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-t...rmoon&n=Tybran

Suggesting your build means I get to critique it. This should be fun.

For starters, no protection paladin should ever be the one bringing kings to the raid. Speccing for kings means you have wasted points.

Seals of the pure is a crap talent. We don't do enough of our threat through seals to ever justify getting it.

Ardent Defender is a crap talent. Any point where ardent defender actually matters at all the healer isn't doing there job or you are going to die in the next hit regardless.

Judgments of the Just is a crap talent. In a raid there are so many mob melee speed push backs available that it is the least of your worries. In a heroic, you really don't want to push back mob melee speed because you are robbing yourself of Blessing of Sanctuary full mana potential (you aren't getting hit as much meaning you can't dodge/parry/block as much) and spiritual attunement mana regeneration (your aren't getting hit as much meaning you aren't taking as much damage meaning you aren't getting as much healing and the healer is over healing anyways).

Improved judgments should be 2/2. It wasn't 2/2 in TBC because everything else was on a 9 second cool down. When everything got dropped to an 8 second cool down in Wrath 969 stopped existing and an 8 second judgment fits much better into a rotation.

Heart of the crusader should be 3/3. In a raid it doesn't matter, but solo and in a heroic this is an awesome talent.

Pursuit of Justice is one of the better tanking talents because of the speed increase and the disarm reduction. It should be in your build if at all possible and if you free up the wasted points its very possible.

Conviction and Sanctified Seals together give a passive 8% chance to crit. When you crit with your abilities your threat goes through the roof. Every tanking build should have these abilities in it.

On a side note, gear wise, you should be gemming every blue and yellow socket with 8 defense 12 stamina (defense is your best stat for avoidance scaling). Every red socket should be either 8 strength and 8 defense (if you are unhappy with your avoidance), 8 strength 12 stamina (if you need more health) or just pure 16 strength if you are trying to increase your block value and you are happy with your stamina and avoidance.

Tempered Titansteel is crap gear. You are better off getting rares from a heroic that actually have avoidance stats. Shadow of the Gouhl and Breastplate of Tormented Rage should be replaced as soon as possible. The best tanking cloak in the game right now is from emblems of valor. You should be focusing on getting the trinket from emblems of heroism and getting your monarch crab crafted to replace your current stamina trinket.

[Raptorg]

Tell him to hold his aggro back, or no sex tonight.

It'll work, I promise you that.

[Tybran]

Your Major Glyphs are fine. Righteous Def, Judgement, and Seal of Veng/Corr are tanking glyphs.

Just practice your rotation, like everything experiance and seat time come into play. If you have the will to improve, you will.

Here are some useful Paladin Faq links for you, if you feel like perusing them, A lot of good information in them. Kudos Knaughty from Maintankadin.

Intro Faq
http://www.maintankadin.failsafedesi...hp?f=4&t=21932

Advanced Faq
http://www.maintankadin.failsafedesi...hp?f=6&t=18982

Good luck! Keep your shield up.

[Tybran]

Suggesting your build means I get to critique it. This should be fun.

I find it funny you put more effort into picking me apart, than honestly helping the original poster. Until you put that much effort into helping the op, I'm not going to respond to your baiting.

[Daez]

-The best build at the moment, imo, is how you have your build...

The best build right now for tanking is...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0eVAbuMtcIRhoxf0xbh

Pursuit of Justice is really a choice though. If you want to do more damage or are having threat issues then put those 2 points into crusade instead. Personally, I can't imagine going without pursuit of justice.

Also, you are JC, getting rare gems is easy for you. You should be using them in all gear levels as a tank. Your Titanium Earthguard ring is going to be BIS until Uludar comes out, so you should definitely be using a rare gem in it. As I said, all yellow/blue gem slots should be 8 defense 12 stamina and all red slots for your gear level are probably best off as 8 strength 12 stamina or 8 strength 8 defense.

[Lily]

Your glyphs are fine then.

I would recommend to respec though.
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-talents.xml?r=Arthas&n=Bucks
The shorter CD on judgements is a must!
The five points in seal of pure is a very nice threat support. And I don't know about your guys' setup, but usually I wouldn't go for kings. Depends on what you do with your pally though. In a five-man group you actually might wanna skill it. . Judgement of the Just is not worth it yet.
And with 3.1. you might wanna respec anyways. .

Tanking groups of 4+ is not easy for any kind of tank.
As a pally I usually throw my avenger's shield, followed by a judgement(if necessary, judge a non-focus target to get threat built up there too), drop your consecration and put your holy shield up. If the warlock waits for like 2 seconds all should just go well. If he does build up too much threat you always could just throw him a hand of salvation. . And if he pulls the entire group all you can do is taunt or use your hand of protection

[Tybran]

The best build right now for tanking is...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0eVAbuMtcIRhoxf0xbh

Pursuit of Justice is really a choice though. If you want to do more damage or are having threat issues then put those 2 points into crusade instead. Personally, I can't imagine going without pursuit of justice.

Also, you are JC, getting rare gems is easy for you. You should be using them in all gear levels as a tank. Your Titanium Earthguard ring is going to be BIS until Uludar comes out, so you should definitely be using a rare gem in it. As I said, all yellow/blue gem slots should be 8 defense 12 stamina and all red slots for your gear level are probably best off as 8 strength 12 stamina or 8 strength 8 defense.

You seem to be confusing me for someone else in your quote. Also, there is no such thing as currently gearing up, right? I got lucky with a 25man and fortunately got some gear, but currently I haven't raided a lot with this character. I just recently got my professions to where they are. Tempered Titansteel is better than the questing blues I upgraded them from.

Your ears don't get very cold, do they?

[Daez]

Your Major Glyphs are fine. Righteous Def, Judgement, and Seal of Veng/Corr are tanking glyphs.

Righteous Defense is an un-needed glyph. I personally don't like it and I don't use it. I can't even remember a time when my Righteous Defense missed with my hit rating. I much prefer glyph of Avenging Wrath so when its time to burn the boss down fast you have much more to contribute. Judgment is not that great of a glyph (10% damage helps but its not needed), I actually use glyph of Holy Light instead because when healing is getting tense and I'm not tanking, I'm going to be casting Holy Light on myself so if I'm healing people around me as well its completely worth using.

[Daez]

I find it funny you put more effort into picking me apart, than honestly helping the original poster. Until you put that much effort into helping the op, I'm not going to respond to your baiting.

I wasn't picking you apart. I was simply stating what not to do as a paladin tank. If you would listen to those critiques it would be helpful to you. I did it in a joking tone. I wasn't trying to be mean. I was simply pointing out where you went wrong so you could learn from it. The op should also be able to gleam meaning from the feed back.

[Daez]

You seem to be confusing me for someone else in your quote.

No that was aimed at the op.

Also, there is no such thing as currently gearing up, right? I got lucky with a 25man and fortunately got some gear, but currently I haven't raided a lot with this character.

I said they should be replaced when you can. I never said that it was bad that you had them. If you were in all BIS besides those I'd be asking why you chose those items. I went easy on you because you are gearing up.

I just recently got my professions to where they are. Tempered Titansteel is better than the questing blues I upgraded them from.

You are wrong. Even with the sockets Tempered Titansteel is still crap gear. You are better off with gear from heroics.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37135 is the best tanking helm you can get for your level.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37618
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44201
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37712

All of these are better than Tempered Titansteel boots. The only decent Titansteel items are the ring and the shield. The shield won't get replaced until Naxx10 and the ring won't get replaced until Uludar.

Your ears don't get very cold, do they?

Is it more hotheaded to not be able to take advice because it was given in a joking manner or to think that you are right in your ignorance so you don't want advice from someone that has tanked 25 man content since early December when their toon was only a month old, is the highest ranking protection paladin on their server, and is in all BiS gear? Either way, I would say that you are a little bit more hot headed than I am.