3.1.1 PvP - Blood Vs Command

[Deleted]

After 3.1, I've been trying to use SoC since the Judgements from SoB hit like a dry towel. Eventhough SoC hasn't changed, compared with the increased damage on Crusader Strike and Divine Storm, AND the added Exorcism, our burst wouldn't change much compared to use SoB pre-patch. The only difference would be is that I don't hurt myself.

I haven't played PvP yet in 3.1.1, so I know our burst is less because we lost Exorcism again (gotta love Blizz putting our hopes up, and then bashing it back into the ground). Although I'm pretty confident that SoC is the PvP command now, simply because it's burst is higher, you can control when you want it to crit, and because it doesn't hurt yourself.

So far, in 3.1, I haven't had 1 other Ret Pally that used SoB defeat me in a 1vs1 duel (Durotar duels ftw).

[Phantomebb]

Although I don't know why I'm bothering (good Ret Paladins know why they shouldn't use SoC) at the very least you should be using SoB/SoM for not other reason then to guarantee you some MP5 against drain teams via Glyph of Seal of Blood.You can thank Blizzard for allowing Divine Plea to once more be dispelled. This was to nerf Holy Paladins, but strangely, it has a far greater effect on Rets.

Uhh you realize drain teams do almost nothing to ret paladins these days right? And with the Sob glyph if you do 20k damage to your self you get only 2200 mana back..... thats less then 2 judges for me.

ok this is how i think about it. with command you can do nice burst dmg. but when all attacks are on cd and you arent lucky with SoC on white hits, the opponent has a window where he can heal or get healed. then you have to start all over again. with Blood you do constant pressure on the player just with autoattack and SoB. if both crit it can do 6k dmg easily. now add CS+soB, DS+SoB and another auto+SoB and its a shitload of trouble that comes over the other team. which means the healer has to focus on your target alot instead of just the bursts every 10seconds.

Umm this post seems a little contradicting im a little confused. Your saying that command can do nice burst damage but sob can do even more??? In reality its easier for a healer to heal constant damage compared to a burst damage. Command does more burst damage and you can even control some. Sob it just constant damage so if you can't stay on your target more then 80% of the time and have a good amount of haste buffs then it really does no more damage then command does and its easier to heal.

[deadenvoy]

last night was playing some pvp tried something new went for the +15% more dmg of seal of righenous stupid ye probably think but ye what hell then i started judging for like 5.5k and i'm like wtf my gear isn't that uber but 5k dmg with judgement i barely see that with seal of martyr and avening wrath on tried it on loathed also easly hit 3.9k while when i use command i hit only 3 tops

[iktankniet]

last night was playing some pvp tried something new. went for the +15% more dmg of seal of righteousness. stupid yeah probably, but what hell. then i started judging for like 5.5k and i'm like wtf my gear isn't that uber, but 5k dmg with judgement i barely see that with seal of martyr and avening wrath on. tried it on loatheb also, and easly hit 3.9k while when i use command i hit only 3k tops

fixed it a bit to make it actually readable instead of 1 huge sentence.

the better your gear gets, the higher your dps will become with SoC and SoB/M. then righteousness will be worse.

[Deathleech]

Since people don't seem to understand, let me provide a very real example.

With SoC you could get a white hit for 1.5k, a white crit for 3k, a CS for 3k, a DS for 2k, a SoC proc in there for around 1.2k, and a SoC judgment crit for 5k. That's a grand total of 15.7k dmg.

With SoB/M you will most likely get a white hit for 1.5k with a 3k seal crit, a white crit for 3k with a 1k seal, a CS for 3k with a 2.5k seal crit, a DS for 2k with a 1k seal hit, and a SoB/M judgment for 4k. That's a grand total of 21k dmg.

Since SoC only has 7 ppm (procs per minute), that means on average you will get one proc per full rotation. Even if you somehow got lucky and got 2 that's only 16.7k dmg compared to 21k dmg. That's still FAR less.

I don't see how this is hard to understand at all. A seal that has a chance to proc once, maybe twice per rotation does not in any way compare to one that has a guarantee proc chance on every attack in your rotation. Not only that, Martyr/Blood's seal dmg hits for just almost the same dmg as Commands seal part. And while SoC judgments do indeed hit for 1k-ish dmg harder, this is nothing when 1 extra seal hit from Martyr makes up for the difference. You arn't going to be getting one extra seal hit with Martyr/Blood though, you will be getting 5 or so per rotation compared to the 2 tops SoC seal procs.

[Jerazznor]

With the changes to replenishment (only affects the paladin, not his team) I think command will return to the top. Auto crits when judging stunned targets will be great as double DPS 2s (considering your only real options are rogues or mages who will both stun) and the recoil of SoB will be a pain now that we no longer give replenishment.

We will have to see though.

[Piscesthepally]

Since people don't seem to understand, let me provide a very real example.

With SoC you could get a white hit for 1.5k, a white crit for 3k, a CS for 3k, a DS for 2k, a SoC proc in there for around 1.2k, and a SoC judgment crit for 5k. That's a grand total of 15.7k dmg.

With SoB/M you will most likely get a white hit for 1.5k with a 3k seal crit, a white crit for 3k with a 1k seal, a CS for 3k with a 2.5k seal crit, a DS for 2k with a 1k seal hit, and a SoB/M judgment for 4k. That's a grand total of 21k dmg.

Since SoC only has 7 ppm (procs per minute), that means on average you will get one proc per full rotation. Even if you somehow got lucky and got 2 that's only 16.7k dmg compared to 21k dmg. That's still FAR less.

I don't see how this is hard to understand at all. A seal that has a chance to proc once, maybe twice per rotation does not in any way compare to one that has a guarantee proc chance on every attack in your rotation. Not only that, Martyr/Blood's seal dmg hits for just almost the same dmg as Commands seal part. And while SoC judgments do indeed hit for 1k-ish dmg harder, this is nothing when 1 extra seal hit from Martyr makes up for the difference. You arn't going to be getting one extra seal hit with Martyr/Blood though, you will be getting 5 or so per rotation compared to the 2 tops SoC seal procs.

Yeah this is pretty much it guys. The place where I would say it is maybe a good idea to use command is if you were to roll with a rogue or frost mage, (someone who can provide stuns for you to instant crit Judge with) But if you are running any ret/healer the choice is clear, blood more now than ever before.

[Messyas]

Hi guys,

I am new here but keep the forum (and site) a long time.
1º - excuse my English (i'm brazilian)
2º - I have a ret paladin and already used the 2 seals (SoC and SoM/B), and really see that the Martyr's damage is higher, but my doubt is for the additional SoC has. (Glyph of SoC + 20% of damage and Libram of Reciprocation (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40706) + 173 critical)

it is worthwhile to take more damage and leave the Glyph of command and the libram for change go to SoM?

remember: Glyph of SoM/B give only 11% recoil mana.

thanks for answering

[iktankniet]

get rid of SoC and the Glyph. switch over to 100% SoB/M use in pve and pvp.

SoB = superior

[San]

OMG itankniet...gimme your belt!

I'm on a low pop server and as far as I know the pattern has not dropped yet. And I haven't seen it in our runs lol.

[Messyas]

get rid of SoC and the Glyph. switch over to 100% SoB/M use in pve and pvp.

ty man.



and who glyphs i need used?

[tommy0guns]

the talent pt, the libram, the glyph all wasted on SoC just to make it come close to SoB. save it all...go Blood.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

IMO, they should Scrap Seal of Command altogether. It's not worth it to keep it around.

Replace it with something else to fill the PvP burst/utility slot, and make it share a CD with Consecration or Exorcism, abilities that we dont use in pvp, to keep it from being overused in PvE.

I would be tempted to make it "Hammer of Command" which absorbs the next heal directed for the target, and spreads it evenly between up to 4 of the Paladin's allies, put it on say a 10s cooldown, and deal 30-60% weapon damage.

[Dukamok]

IMO, they should Scrap Seal of Command altogether. It's not worth it to keep it around.

Replace it with something else to fill the PvP burst/utility slot, and make it share a CD with Consecration or Exorcism, abilities that we dont use in pvp, to keep it from being overused in PvE.

I would be tempted to make it "Hammer of Command" which absorbs the next heal directed for the target, and spreads it evenly between up to 4 of the Paladin's allies, put it on say a 10s cooldown, and deal 30-60% weapon damage.

I like people who come up with good ideas

*thumbs up*

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I like people who come up with good ideas

*thumbs up*

It's an extra strike, which I guess people could have cause to complain about, but it would hit like a kitten, and the heal stolen would probably amount to little, depending on the class, I'm not sure how it should work with regard to DoTs or Shields.

[Piscesthepally]

I would be tempted to make it "Hammer of Command" which absorbs the next heal directed for the target, and spreads it evenly between up to 4 of the Paladin's allies, put it on say a 10s cooldown, and deal 30-60% weapon damage.

very cool idea!