Ghostcrawler asked for change, all I have is a dollar.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I'm a little uncertain how to present all of this, there's a lot of structure to what I'm suggesting, balancing and intention, that can't be seen just by looking at the abilities. If you don't play Ret, or at least Paladin, I can't exactly expect any of this to make sense to you. Before you take any one suggestion here at flat face value, try to consider how it would be used in the greater image, including both PvE and PvP.

Provide FEEDBACK and SUGGESTIONS, criticism isn't quite what I need. There are many holes that I'm sure I hadn't considered when I developed all this, pointing those out is only slightly helpful, what's MUCH more illuminating, is offering a suggestion that FILLS that hole, so the complete version is more interesting, if not more appealing as an implementable change.

The first reply will be about the reasoning and concept behind each change I'm suggesting.

The second reply will be a note about visuals, graphics, balancing, and intended rotations.

[size=10pt]TLDR: The important stuff starts here:[/size]

Hand of Reckoning: This ability has been renamed to avoid confusion with both the hand spells, and the Reckoning ability. It is now called "Righteous Challenge"

Reckoning: This ability has been moved from the Protection tree to the Retribution Tree, it is now placed next to Fanaticism, below Art of War. It is now an active ability - Channel offensive energy for up to 6 seconds, each second you spend channeling costs 9% of your total mana to add one charge of Reckoning, which causes each attack within 10 seconds to generate an additional melee strike. Maximum 6 charges. No cooldown.

Reckoning has been replaced in Protection by: Stem the Tide - Enemies in the area of effect of your Consecration have their movement and attack speed slowed by 10/20% for 4 seconds. (Does not stack with Judgements of the Just)

Exorcism: This ability has been reworked, instead of causing instant holy damage, it converts your next flash of light or holy light into a damage spell for 10 seconds, Flash of Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 75% of the heal amount, and Holy Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 40% of the heal amount.

New Talent: Sacrificial Wrath - Effective healing you cause on yourself with Flash of Light deals 50/100% holy damage to all enemies within 10 yards.

Crusader Strike: An instant melee attack which deals 110% weapon damage, and a secondary effect based on your currently active seal:

Seal of Blood/Martyr/Righteousness/Command - Deals damage as holy damage
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption - Increases the effectiveness of all holy-damage over time effects you cause by 25% for 6 seconds.
Seal of Light - Restores health equivalent to 25% of damage done
Seal of Wisdom - Restores 10% of total mana
Seal of Justice - Reflects the next attack directed at you back at its source. Lasts 6 seconds.

Divine Storm: Unleashes the power of your currently active seal to deal 50% weapon damage to up to 4 nearby enemies every second for 4 seconds, or until 4 attacks are made, heals the Paladin and up to 4 party or raid members for 25% of the damage caused. 12 second cooldown.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

So, now that you see what we're looking at, I'll break down what each change is for, and why I made those changes.

Hand of Reckoning: Who does blizzard's naming conventions? Calling this spell 'hand' of reckoning would be like calling a shaman taunt "Totem of Tanking". Not much else to say there.

Reckoning: This is a massive damage, burst-oriented ability that is self-limiting, without needing a cooldown, due to the massive mana requirements to use it. Combined with Divine Storm, this can add up to about 10 attacks in the span of 4 seconds, but the Paladin must use 72% of his total mana, remain stationary and channelling for 6 seconds, and then make melee range with his target before the 10 second timer expires, and keep himself within range to make sure every hit connects. While the burst potential is impressive, there are plenty of pitfalls to using the ability that would make it difficult to abuse in the arena without devoting your entire playstyle around it.

Stem the Tide: Reckoning was originally intended to help Paladins out with faster swinging enemies, or when attacked by multiple enemies. The design was never all that good, and is beyond antiquated now. Stem the Tide is a reasonable alternative that solidifies the niche of AoE/Fast swing tanking that paladins have currently.

Exorcism: Now this can be returned to PvP, while the ability itself would be off the GCD, it's still an interruptible cast that requires a stationary paladin, and still only occurs every 15 seconds. Art of War really makes this shine, it gives the Paladin incentive to use a lower damage ability so he can keep his melee swings going. This would also synergize with Sheathe of Light, so that if your offensive-heal was to crit, it would cause a DoT.

Sacrificial Wrath: I wanted to provide some incentive for using Seal of Blood without Reckoning, so rather than using Reckoning and Exorcism, this talent allows the self-damage you inflict to ultimately benefit you, as you will be sparing mana for your healers, and putting it to good use as both damage and survivability, be it in PvP or PvE.

Crusader Strike: I didn't want to change much, but wanted to make each seal option have a time and a place, just using one seal for every endeavor is boring, now there is a definite purpose to activating any seal you might choose, as compared to the others.

Divine Storm: More attacks, for less damage. The abiltiy is getting almost a 100% damage buff, but the damage is getting spread out over 4 seconds, and with a slightly longer cooldown.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Spec Diversity:

The intent is to divide Retribution into 3 main styles of play:

Wisdom + Reckoning

Exorcism + Vengeance

Blood + Sacrifice

Of course, there are sub-options, such as mixing Sacrifice with Command, or Exorcism with blood and Sacrifice. The more variety there is in specs, the better it will be in the end. The only thing I want to stifle is any combination of these talents that allows DPS or burst damage to scream out ahead.

Animations:

Firstly, Divine Storm would remain largely unchanged, but obviously a 4 second duration means the graphics would have to be slowed down a bit. I would also like to see the whirlwind character animation removed in favor of something more befitting a Paladin, like a stomp.

While channeling reckoning, ideally the animation cue would rotate the "draw weapon" character animation in a rapid loop, In my mind, I see a Paladin using this ability almost like some forms of Iaido, where the sword is kept sheathed during battle. Each attack would generate a blue colored 'slash swipe' like the Death Knight animations (Frost Strike in particular).

The Rotations:

The Reckoning Rotation - Ideally this player runs with Seal of Wisdom, it's the only way to keep enough mana to use Reckoning every 12 seconds to keep up with your Divine Storm cooldown.

You start by fully charging Reckoning, and as soon as it's fully charged, you hit Divine storm, to ensure that all of your reckoning charges are used quickly (Should be like the old-school Reckoning Bomb, but over a period of 4 seconds instead of instantly) followed immediately by Crusader Strike, Consecration, and Judgement, in various orders depending on what you need to refresh, AoW Procs, and of course fight movement.

In my number-crunching phase, this spec turned out the best AoE damage, but did the least single-target DPS at just under 4k in average tier 7.5 gear. It surprisingly didn't deal much more burst than the other two, but if you slip up anywhere in the rotation, DPS takes a sharp nosedive. As you would expect from a character using Seal of Wisdom while DPSing, this seems to best fit a patient, careful mindset, it's much better to hold off for a few seconds and miss some DPS than it is to misfire and potentially cripple your rotation for 12 seconds.

The Exorcism Rotation - This player uses Seal of Vengeance, although Seal of Righteousness may be used as an alternative, where Reckoning would see some use.

This spec probably has some points in holy to buff SoV and their healing, which happen to be easy-to-get points early in the tree. Exorcism is used at every cooldown, followed by a CASTED Holy Light, which is less costly for DPS for this spec, as SoV doesn't require frequent refreshing to deal its full damage. Crusader Strikes should never be missed for any reason, as the DoT-buffing effect is crucial for Sheath, SoV, and Righteous Vengeance ticks.

Crunching numbers, this spec pulled out ahead of the other two at 4100 DPS, but did much, MUCH less AoE than the other two. This one most closely resembles the current FCFS nature of Ret, albeit with some more focus on watching durations and trying to keep buffs/DoTs rolling.

The Blood Rotation: Obviously here we use Seal of Blood, it may seem that there is less talent-tree synergy in this build, but that is deliberate, as SoB deals much more damage by itself.

The two big ones for this build are Art of War and Sacrificial Wrath. Because seal damage is such an important component of your damage, you can't afford to miss swings trying to cast healing spells for exorcism. In that light, every Art of War proc is a golden opportunity to apply extra damage, while this spec deals the poorest burst damage, the RNG nature of crits and AoW can cause it to occasionally win out over the other two.

This one was middle-field on DPS, at just over 4k, with mid-field AoE, and the best survivability. Much in your selection will have to do with personal preference, but this build seemed to be the easiest to play, due to having a simpler setup.

Other Stuff: As far as PvP goes, any of these builds could make use of Seal of Command in PvP, but additional tweaks would have to be made in each case, and there are potentially dozens of other combinations you could construct with the talents given, and the synergies possible with our multitude of damage seals.

[psicorp]

Reckoning has been replaced in Protection by: Stem the Tide - Enemies in the area of effect of your Consecration have their movement and attack speed slowed by 10/20% for 4 seconds. (Does not stack with Judgements of the Just)

very cool name, very weak effect, it would be far better if it was something like "has its chance to hit reduced by 5%, or if you really just want it to be a fun trash ability, something that at least isnt invalidated with JotJ, like for example, when an enemy is damaged by your concecration spell, you become enraged, increasing strength and block value by 3% per enemy, maximum of 15%

[Copain]

This topic has some good ideas, I don't know if I like all the damage spells we appear to get (like HOly/Flash of light getting turned into an attack)

I don't see a problem with Hand of Reckoning's name O_o, but I haven't been keeping up with the complains people have..

The only problem I have is the Reflect given by jutsice, it seems a bit strong, but I will say we need a reflet

very cool name, very weak effect, it would be far better if it was something like "has its chance to hit reduced by 5%, or if you really just want it to be a fun trash ability, something that at least isnt invalidated with JotJ, like for example, when an enemy is damaged by your concecration spell, you become enraged, increasing strength and block value by 3% per enemy, maximum of 15%

Lol "I hit someone!!! RGHHHH THAT MAKES ME MAD!!!!"

Maybe some kinda Holy Field bonus or something though.

[Deleted]

Reserved.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

very cool name, very weak effect, it would be far better if it was something like "has its chance to hit reduced by 5%, or if you really just want it to be a fun trash ability, something that at least isnt invalidated with JotJ, like for example, when an enemy is damaged by your concecration spell, you become enraged, increasing strength and block value by 3% per enemy, maximum of 15%

The idea behind keeping JotJ and Stem the Tide mutually exclusive was so that bosses weren't limited to 60% of their swing speed.

You could still have both active, but no ONE enemy would be affected by both.

Reducing chance to hit, instead of a 20% attack speed penalty, might be really fun, though.

[psicorp]

The idea behind keeping JotJ and Stem the Tide mutually exclusive was so that bosses weren't limited to 60% of their swing speed.

You could still have both active, but no ONE enemy would be affected by both.

Reducing chance to hit, instead of a 20% attack speed penalty, might be really fun, though.

oh i get it, dont get me wrong, but the prot tree is pretty bloated as is, if it has the same effect as JotJ, its probably going to get passed on. so instead, combine a debuff with another class. a miss debuff, either 3 or 5%, still helps with raiding trash, though an oomkin could apply it to bosses, so really hardcore raiders might still pass on it, but this way, its also usefull in 5 or 10 mans where one might not be available, and also has some pvp utility. i was going for all around useful, without being overpowered

[Sazbi]

Reckoning has been replaced in Protection by: Stem the Tide - Enemies in the area of effect of your Consecration have their movement and attack speed slowed by 10/20% for 4 seconds. (Does not stack with Judgements of the Just)

Exorcism: This ability has been reworked, instead of causing instant holy damage, it converts your next flash of light or holy light into a damage spell for 10 seconds, Flash of Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 75% of the heal amount, and Holy Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 40% of the heal amount.

Honestly i say keep it as it is. Take away exorcism and you nerf pally tanks. no tank is going to cast while tanking! it would be like /sit on a hard mode boss...

Stem of the Tide Seems cool but i would much rather keep my 7k threat spell and continue not to have points here than have it and be the bottem of the totempole again

[qwertyk]

Some of the dumbest ideas I've ever read. :

[Sazbi]

Some of the dumbest ideas I've ever read. :

+1!

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Some of the dumbest ideas I've ever read. :

Dumber than posting in a threat that specifically asked for improvements, offering none?

I think you should re-evaluate your stance, and come back when you can put some thought into a post. There's a famous Abraham Lincoln quote about this sort of thoughtless drivel.

[Sazbi]

Dumber than posting in a threat that specifically asked for improvements, offering none?

I think you should re-evaluate your stance, and come back when you can put some thought into a post. There's a famous Abraham Lincoln quote about this sort of thoughtless drivel.

His is feedback

paladins are IMO Ballanced very well right now. a good ret pally can be near the top of meters, a holy pally can spam HL without going OOM, and pally tanks have good threat and surviabily
so honestly these changes nerf prot which is on a tight line with all tank classes right now, and buffs two borderline OP Specs.
[me=Sazbi]smells nerf stick's odor approching[/me]

[Deathcold]

"Crusader Strike: An instant melee attack which deals 110% weapon damage, and a secondary effect based on your currently active seal:

Seal of Blood/Martyr/Righteousness/Command - Deals damage as holy damage
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption - Increases the effectiveness of all holy-damage over time effects you cause by 25% for 6 seconds.
Seal of Light - Restores health equivalent to 25% of damage done
Seal of Wisdom - Restores 10% of total mana
Seal of Justice - Reflects the next attack directed at you back at its source. Lasts 6 seconds."

Stoped to read here, since it is a prof how clueless is the OP of how balance and pve work.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

"Crusader Strike: An instant melee attack which deals 110% weapon damage, and a secondary effect based on your currently active seal:

Seal of Blood/Martyr/Righteousness/Command - Deals damage as holy damage
Seal of Vengeance/Corruption - Increases the effectiveness of all holy-damage over time effects you cause by 25% for 6 seconds.
Seal of Light - Restores health equivalent to 25% of damage done
Seal of Wisdom - Restores 10% of total mana
Seal of Justice - Reflects the next attack directed at you back at its source. Lasts 6 seconds."

Stoped to read here, since it is a prof how clueless is the OP of how balance and pve work.

Let me get this straight. A Paladin is using an ability that all raid enemies will be immune to, COMPLETELY IMMUNE, and the one tiny saving grace he might have, the ability to do something any Warrior with a shield can do, albeit on a shorter cooldown... and it's OP.

As for "Ret is fine and balanced, they need nerfs, not buffs, etc." If you had bothered to check the numbers in the posts, these changes result in a small nerf to overall DPS, on live I pull above 5k on most fights in 7.5 gear, these changes actually reduced damage to around 4k in the same gear. If you think 4k is too high for 7.5 gear, I dont know what to tell you, but you've got something to sort out on your own time, and preferably in your own thread.

The idea is NOT to give ret an interrupt, or a snare, or a ridiculous buff, it is to do EXACTLY what Ghostcrawler wants; cause Retribution to take thought and skill to perform, and to inject some much-needed variety into a spec full of identical clones.

[Fortoss]

Without redesigning the whole thing:

1.Move Seal of the Pure into the prot tree or make it apply to all judgements.

Holy dps would go up, not by much but enough I guess. Let Developers come up with the numbers, seeing there's no PTR for testing any theorycrafting. It affects tanking seals anyway. Seal damage was nerfed and this could bring it back to a level that would satisfy(common sense pls) both blizz and players. For ret now just change crusader strike to 105% of wep damage to offset increased seal damage. We have Sanctity of Battle anyway it shouldn't affect ret too much, if so buff Sancitity of battle to 16%-17%. Developers can smooth numbers out.
For pvp they could even make CS 110% if target is under the effect of HoJ. If you have 2 ret pallies on you that's 2 HoJs your dead anyway, just rez and nerd rage back and die again. That extra 5% extra wep damage on a 30sec-1min CD isn't that great of a buff, if you still find reasons to cry about this I'll put pop Soc and stun you and crit you that way! Next?! Thank You moving on :P

2.Reckoning.........well idk really. I can see where it could be useful(don't ask pls lol) If it has to be there make it an unavoidable strike if you are parried. Where does prot threat really come from? Physical or holy damage?

The whole FCFS is alittle exagerrated tbh. You still have a priority of which skill to use. Timing the CDs to use your highest damage abilty the most is no different than any other class. Notice I said use your highest damage abilities the most. Every classes has them. That's what separates good and bad players.

[davep]

Reckoning is probably the most unused talent in the Prot tree, I won't say show me 10 good pally tanks that have the talent because there probably is since it really doesn't hurt you having it but there are definitely better talents worth spending points in the reckoning for a prot pally.

[Tpyo]

Let me get this straight. A Paladin is using an ability that all raid enemies will be immune to, COMPLETELY IMMUNE, and the one tiny saving grace he might have, the ability to do something any Warrior with a shield can do, albeit on a shorter cooldown... and it's OP.

As for "Ret is fine and balanced, they need nerfs, not buffs, etc." If you had bothered to check the numbers in the posts, these changes result in a small nerf to overall DPS, on live I pull above 5k on most fights in 7.5 gear, these changes actually reduced damage to around 4k in the same gear. If you think 4k is too high for 7.5 gear, I dont know what to tell you, but you've got something to sort out on your own time, and preferably in your own thread.

The idea is NOT to give ret an interrupt, or a snare, or a ridiculous buff, it is to do EXACTLY what Ghostcrawler wants; cause Retribution to take thought and skill to perform, and to inject some much-needed variety into a spec full of identical clones.

I'm fairly sure he was referring to the fact that you could, in PvP have 100% uptime on a spell reflect (assuming it didn't get consumed) given that Crusader Strike is going to be one of your main damage abilities. 110% Weapon damage PLUS a reflect, and only a 6 second cooldown? Perhaps if there were some sort if internal cooldown on it to prevent it from going up everytime you hit CS it wouldn't be a big deal. But it's a bit ridiculous to try to defend a Spell reflect that does damage even if it doesn't reflect a spell (CS's main effect) PLUS the damage of the reflected spell.

Perhaps you could just make it absorb/deflect the spell, as not to add even more damage to it, or, as I stated earlier, give it an internal cooldown on the effect, but the current incarnation you want to implement is far too strong.

[Kavalir]

Reckoning is probably the most unused talent in the Prot tree, I won't say show me 10 good pally tanks that have the talent because there probably is since it really doesn't hurt you having it but there are definitely better talents worth spending points in the reckoning for a prot pally.

Reckoning has the potential to be half decent for threat generation IF people bothered to seal twist. Problem of course is seal twisting wastes your other GCDs that could be used for avoidance spells (Holy Shield) AOE Spells (HotR, Consecration) or single target spells (SotR, AS, Exorcism) And since reckoning is so random with its procs it will likely pop up halfway thru your rotation, making it kinda retarded for threat generation anyways cause you cant take use of it.
Personally I would take it until its fixed somehow to say somehow up your shield block value or something useful that actually can realisticly increase your threat.

[ForDarkspear]

It looks like you went to the OP buffet and grabbed everything that looked and sounded delicious.

Jesus Christ dude....