Tanking threat.

[Krystus]

I sincerely doubt that you need sanc on a bossfight unless it's a gimmicky one where you're taking next to no damage, e.g. Loatheb.

I can't be bothered to drag up the math right now, but you only need 1/2 SA and divine plea to keep up a standard rotation without sanc. If you're losing mana then you're casting unnecessary things or using consecration too much.

This is a thread on threat. Skipping consecration is a horrible thing to do. Use sanct if you need the mana.

3% DR vs 10% stats: use sanct for longevity (if your healers are running out of mana), use kings for survivability (if you are dying to spikes). If neither (and you have the mana), kings is better threat.

[Strykzor]

I find it amusing every is saying how is spec is not perfect or he might have a few strange gem or glyph choices.
ITT: Idiots

Those few changes are not the difference between 1k TPS and 6k DPS (which is what he should be closer to)
If he is indeed 13, he is too young and probably doesn't have the knowledge to play effectively.

[SyncMaster]

The youth in germany are already parents by the age of 13. Imo, WoW shouldnt be that of a problem!

Well, sometimes I let my 6 years old cousin on my PC, he pulls out 4k DPS on my shadow priest twink. :P

[Lightstrike]

Okay, I'm bored and decided to hit you in the face with a stream of "wrong"

The Math:

Divine plea on an unbuffed paladin mana pool gives 94 mana per second, 1693 mana over the course of a full paladin tank rotation.
On a buffed paladin tank, kings+IA, it gives 127 mana per second. 2287 mana over the coruse of a rotation.

Some more boring math later to do with SA (1 point) I arrive at the fact to pull even (ignoring mana from judgement of wisdom), you need to have incoming 3480 dps on you to break even unbuffed and 2539 dps incoming while buffed.

On a boss fight it's likely you will easily have this sort of dps incoming.. assuming an arbitrary 50% pure avoidance and a 2 second swing timer meaning a hit of 14k every 4 seconds unbuffed or a hit of 11.2k every 4 seconds while buffed.

Simple fact is that these damage levels are about the norm, so you shouldn't need sanc to keep your mana up on a boss fight, on trash you might find you need it due to the lower damage, or you could just pull more

Oh, and one more thing, consecration does about the same threat on a single target as exorcism, which costs a lot less mana..

You can use exorcism instead of consecration once per rotation allowing you to cut your mana usage. This means that your DTPS need only be 2.9k unbuffed or 2250 buffed.

And all of this is ignoring any mana gained from JoW.

So as far as mana goes, you should easily have enough incoming on a boss right to forego sanc and use kings if theres only one paladin in the raid.

Back on threat for a second, kings is a good improvement to threat, and should mana not be a problem which it shouldnt..

You should ideally swap out judgement for exorcism instead of consecration for maximum threat/damage.

Which is also why for all intents and purposes, glyph of judgement isnt as good as glyph of exorcism.

[Paandora]

No, I always have him targeted at the beginning of a pull, and then I assist him to be sure its the same target.

Here is his armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ard&gn=Twisted
Suggestions on his spec and gear would be awesome

And to those saying we should get a new tank..... He's not one of the guild's tanks that we bring to raids, and its not just because of his threat issues. He's around 13 years old, and isn't very good at following strategies, so we bring others. He always wants to tank heroics though, so i wanted to help him improve to the point that maybe some day we'd be willing to bring him into Naxx.

Well he can start farming for "Red Sword of Courage" that drops in Utgarde Pinnacle Heroic.
Then he can continue by Enchanting the shield with + 20 Defense rating.
And then Enchant the gloves with Armsman - + 2% threat and 10 hit rating.
And then it's just a matter of how many heroics he doing each day, cause he need to save to 80 Emblems of heroism to buy the T7 Chest and enchant that one with +10stats.

Note: Something needs to be done by that block - 10% is not good imo.
Need to get it to atleast 20%, and still be defence caped.

[Lightstrike]

Well he can start farming for "Red Sword of Courage" that drops in Utgarde Pinnacle Heroic.
Then he can continue by Enchanting the shield with + 20 Defense rating.
And then Enchant the gloves with Armsman - + 2% threat and 10 hit rating.
And then it's just a matter of how many heroics he doing each day, cause he need to save to 80 Emblems of heroism to buy the T7 Chest and enchant that one with +10stats.

Note: Something needs to be done by that block - 10% is not good imo.
Need to get it to atleast 20%, and still be defence caped.

What? No.

20% block is far too much, at first you need it but don't make it sound like something to aim for.

He needs enough avoidance to reach 102.4% combined avoidance (miss+dodge+parry+block) while maximising pure avoidance (miss, dodge, parry) and minimising block.

[Liquid_Beaver]

Kings is better than Sanc for everything?

Do you do any progression at all? In my guild's 25 man Ulduar runs, quite often I do Sanctuary on everyone in lieu of Kings, just because a lot of times that 3% less damage is just enough that we down a difficult boss, where depending on the class 10% Stam =/= the returns of 3% damage reduction.

If I am the only pally in the group, which happens sometimes, I will always choose Sanctuary for myself over Kings.

If there is another pally, then sure have both, but that does not pertain to your statement.

[Lightstrike]

I have 31k hp unbuffed... After reductions I take about 15k a hit on a melee boss... please oh great one tell me how reducing that 15k hit by an extra 3% is more effective than giving me an extra 3k health?

3% damage reduction is great, but is not the first port of call by a long shot for the rest of the raid.. and if you think it is that's great.. I however will continue doing things the most effective way, how does that sound?

[SyncMaster]

On hard hitting bosses BoK > BoSanc.

[Dukamok]

The youth in germany are already parents by the age of 13. Imo, WoW shouldnt be that of a problem!

Well, sometimes I let my 6 years old cousin on my PC, he pulls out 4k DPS on my shadow priest twink. :P

Uh, what.

Like everyone's saying, it's better to quickly point the finger at the player in these cases instead of spec or glyphs (though they are certainly easy fixes). Tell him he needs to read up on his class a bit, figure out rotations, and practice. 1k TPS with that (albeit low) level of gear STILL seems almost impossible.

[daytona]

He is 13 years old, doesn't listen to others for tactics and probably not capable of taking advice. He plays like crap, no spec, glyph, gear change can make him even remotely decent if he is pulling 1k on a single target. You can cover him in T8 and he will still not do the job. I understand that you are just trying to be nice and for some a nice gesture can make them a better player. In this case just let this one go down the drain. He is immature even for his age, he can't follow instructions and generally just fail. Doesn't strike me as someone you would party with and even worse have as a tank.

No advice in the world will make Vard a decent player, this one is beyond hope.

[Draco cracona]

I have 31k hp unbuffed... After reductions I take about 15k a hit on a melee boss... please oh great one tell me how reducing that 15k hit by an extra 3% is more effective than giving me an extra 3k health?

3% damage reduction is great, but is not the first port of call by a long shot for the rest of the raid.. and if you think it is that's great.. I however will continue doing things the most effective way, how does that sound?

Stam stacking stops being effective spike soaking when you can take the biggest spike damage a boss will throw at you. If the max hit you're taking is 15k, then 31k (a hit and a parryhasted hit, with a bit of extra margin) is all you need to survive; any stam past that is not going to add much survivability.

[Jayded1]

Gonna have to stop you there. Sanctuary is better in all intents. You get incoming mana on dodges/blocks/parries, and 3% damage reduction. 10% to stats is nice, but Sanctuary is still better for yourself if you're the only Paladin in the group.

Agreed, anyone who think Kings > Sancuary is a fail tank and may be worse then this kid.

[Asyl]

I have 31k hp unbuffed... After reductions I take about 15k a hit on a melee boss... please oh great one tell me how reducing that 15k hit by an extra 3% is more effective than giving me an extra 3k health?

Because it's not a 3% reduction of the 15k hit you took but a 3% reduction of the actual hit which before damage reduction and armor and blocking was probably more like 40-50k?

[Emodin]

I see a lot of people on the hes 13 so probably just cant play band wagon.

I have a 13 year old son who i guarantee could hold his own against any of the people posting on this thread. Id wager a bet that 1/2 the time you get ganked by someone while out messing around and die...you got beat down by a kid.

Lets not hold to the fact that its a kid...but help the guy with the info he asked for

[Lightstrike]

Because it's not a 3% reduction of the 15k hit you took but a 3% reduction of the actual hit which before damage reduction and armor and blocking was probably more like 40-50k?

Okay we'll assume that its 3% before everything.

XT-002 hits for approximately 65k unmitigated... 3% of that is 2000 damage give or take... so how is 2000 reduction better than 3000 more health?

And as far as your divine plea calculations go chronalis, that is divine plea completely unbuffed.. in a raid you are likely to have IA and of course king yourself instead of sanc and possibly motw, which provides 127 mps, not 94.

180+127 = 307, which more than the 290 you calculated. So effectively you wouldn't run oom using your numbers..

If you don't have a mage to give you IA, it would be a close one. With only kings DP gives 103mps, leaving you at 283 total, which is 7 below what you need to stay even... with just kings you have 6208 mana in standard tanking gear meaning it would take you 14 minutes and 46 seconds to run out of mana just doing a standard rotation.

So as I said, you don't really need sanc.

Before anyone says that not everyone has 30k hp for kings to add 3k to, you should also note that there won;'t be many tanks going into ulduar and taking 65k hits before mitigation without at least close to 30k hp, and there certainly won't be any going in there with under 20k hp which would make sanc better.

Also, I was referring to pure avoidance with the 50% I mentioned, and it is a rough figure based on the stats of an ulduar tank who knows how to gear properly.. I have 55%, but I chose to err on the side of caution and round down.
Also, if you're in a BV set then your pure avoidance is going to go down while your block % goes up so you'll still end up taking enough damage on average. You mentioned hammer of justice twice in your list btw.

Also regarding this whole you can't afford to not cast consecration, how is this remotely true? It provides the same threat as an exorcism but costs more, so while tanking a boss what's the point in spending the extra mana on consecrate instead of using exorcism?

[Viertel]

Okay we'll assume that its 3% before everything.

XT-002 hits for approximately 65k unmitigated... 3% of that is 2000 damage give or take... so how is 2000 reduction better than 3000 more health?

And as far as your divine plea calculations go chronalis, that is divine plea completely unbuffed.. in a raid you are likely to have IA and of course king yourself instead of sanc and possibly motw, which provides 127 mps, not 94.

180+127 = 307, which more than the 290 you calculated. So effectively you wouldn't run oom using your numbers..

If you don't have a mage to give you IA, it would be a close one. With only kings DP gives 103mps, leaving you at 283 total, which is 7 below what you need to stay even... with just kings you have 6208 mana in standard tanking gear meaning it would take you 14 minutes and 46 seconds to run out of mana just doing a standard rotation.

So as I said, you don't really need sanc.

Before anyone says that not everyone has 30k hp for kings to add 3k to, you should also note that there won;'t be many tanks going into ulduar and taking 65k hits before mitigation without at least close to 30k hp, and there certainly won't be any going in there with under 20k hp which would make sanc better.

If you can't understand how reducing base damage by 2,000 is worth more than 3,000 health you shouldn't even be tanking.

[Bellomourn]

No, I always have him targeted at the beginning of a pull, and then I assist him to be sure its the same target.

Here is his armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ard&gn=Twisted
Suggestions on his spec and gear would be awesome

And to those saying we should get a new tank..... He's not one of the guild's tanks that we bring to raids, and its not just because of his threat issues. He's around 13 years old, and isn't very good at following strategies, so we bring others. He always wants to tank heroics though, so i wanted to help him improve to the point that maybe some day we'd be willing to bring him into Naxx.

His age shouldn't matter, I used to raid Vanilla back when i was 12-13 and did very well.
He's just stupid.
He's the reason people say 13 year olds suck at this game.

[Lightstrike]

Of course I can understand how it can be better, but in a boss fight scenario, you usually want as much EH as possible.

And if you don't need the mana and kings gives better EH, then the answer is simple.

[Mica]

Of course I can understand how it can be better, but in a boss fight scenario, you usually want as much EH as possible.

And if you don't need the mana and kings gives better EH, then the answer is simple.

Assuming sanctuary gives 3% damage reduction before any modifiers you get the following EH values (math shown)

Dummy paladin with 32000 hp and 25000 armor
25000 armor = 62.14% damage reduction
With sanctuary = 65.14% damage reduction
25000+3500 armor = 65.16% reduction - close enough
3500 armor = 250 item value
250 item value in stamina = 2850 hp after talents

Dummy paladin has 84519 base effective health @ 32000hp and 25000 armor
With sanctuary = 91872 effective health
With kings = 92047 effective health

The difference in EH is only 175, not enough to make an argument in favor of Kings, therefore the choice between Sanctuary and Kings for a paladin comes down to whether or not you value the additional agility and strength over the additional mana. In some cases we prefer mana (like me) and in other cases we prefer the very very very slight increase in threat and avoidance.

Values derived from tankspot armor formula, wiki item values, and tanking tips effective health calculator.