Easy way to fix/improve Ret dps system in PvE

[Utal]

Some sort of choice between two spells would be good. pressing either would result in Damage but for different situations.

[Handsylton]

Some sort of choice between two spells would be good. pressing either would result in Damage but for different situations.

Judgements? I can see where you're coming from, but we already have spells like that. I mean, having one is good, with the three different judgements, even though only two are viable for PvE, which is what this thread is about. If we had too many spells like that, things would be too congested. We already have plenty of attacks, but one of them is never utilized.

How about this. Something along the lines of a "soulsteal" ability, obviously with a cooler name. But an attack called let's say "Hammer of Vengeance" - hit's the enemy for 10% AP/10% SP + 800 damage, and places a debuff causing the enemy to become undead for 5 seconds. Using Exorcism or Holy Wrath consumes the debuff. It's got a stupid name but it would be a new small attack that would make you think about using Exorcism wisely and after this attack, maybe place it on a 12 second cooldown. Just something that would get some active proc-based attacks into our combat system would be an improvement. Scrap my Holy Wrath idea, but keep the seal damage lowered and the CS procs refresh of DS for 5 seconds buff. Keep DS as physical damage.

Just throwing stuff out there, but I honestly believe that our system is not broken, and RNG procs would actually lower our burst because we'd be thinking about when to use an ability and not just unloading it.

[tjanson]

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You crit with CS, and boom, you recieve a BUFF called "Wrath of the Holy", a 5 second buff that makes your Divine Storm refresh, and when Divine Storm is used, the buff goes away.

You crit with Exorcism, you gain a BUFF called "Exorcism of the Unjust", and your next cast of Holy Wrath costs no mana. When you use it, the buff disappears.


It's an RNG proc based system for a few attacks, but in reality, that's all this class needs. FCFS is better than "press these buttons in this order, and that's IT, and that's your dps, and never change anything about this order or you will do shit for dps."

The thing I think you guys are missing about the whole RNG proc based idea, is that it would really unbalance PvP. I mean, a chance to proc a cooldown refresh... that's even more potential for insane frontloaded damage. If they toned down the other aspects of our damage to compensate, you're just sitting there praying for an RNG proc to occur. I think I had enough of that with Seal of Casino, tyvm.

[tjanson]

See the whole point is we don't need a HUGE revamp. It's just not necessary. Combo points is just band-aiding us by putting a new system in place that already exists. I don't get what's so hard to see a system where we use our basic FCFS, which twists thrown in that will give us more to look for, and more to do. Increase the cooldown on Divine Storm to 20 seconds. Make it holy damage. Make it a 5/10% chance on CS crit to proc a refresh. (With 50% raid buffed crit, that's a 2.5/5% chance of it becoming refreshed, not really OP) It should be our hardest hitting attack, it's our 51 point talent. Give it some OOMPH, and lessen seal damage. This is not a complete overhaul, and asking for an entirely new battle system when they JUST got seals how they wanted it is ridiculous. Changing a coefficient so seals do less damage, and implementing two RNG procs is not a complete overhaul, nor should the paladin class recieve. I would be much more worried about our status if we had some ridiculous rotation like arcane mages, because frankly, a simple rotation would kill this class even more.

Have you ever played an arcane mage? The rotation is not "ridiculous" by any means, once you get used to it it's actually quite straightforward, and while simple to use, requires real skill to get the most out of it. I guess we have different visions about what we want out of paladin dps. I personally would like to have a system that rewards putting more effort into it, rather than the absolute faceroll that it is right now. I guess I'm a little confused as to how you think watching for an RNG proc while increasing the cooldown on one of our abilities is going to change the rotation. You'll just do what you always do, and watch for the proc when it happens.

[Handsylton]

Imagine having three different Art of War procs that all did different things. Think you'd pay a little more attention and have a little more fun playing? That's essentially what I'm asking for here. No combo points, I'm not a feral druid. The thing is that the only way that we're going to get any real change in our system is by reducing our DPS so we can increase the amount of attacks or the rewards from a proc-based attack. Increasing the cooldown of Divine Storm and making it holy damage again would make it do almost the same amount of damage as it does right now in the long run, but would really benefit when the CS buff procc'ed, however it would also reset the cooldown again, so it's not THAT huge. A 5/10% chance for an attack to refresh is not game changing, when in reality it's either a 5% or less chance to actually work. Same thing with the Exorcism proc idea. It's by no means "OP", because it's simply taking the damage that we already do, and changing it into different forms that are more interesting.

[tjanson]

Imagine having three different Art of War procs that all did different things. Think you'd pay a little more attention and have a little more fun playing? That's essentially what I'm asking for here. No combo points, I'm not a feral druid. The thing is that the only way that we're going to get any real change in our system is by reducing our DPS so we can increase the amount of attacks or the rewards from a proc-based attack. Increasing the cooldown of Divine Storm and making it holy damage again would make it do almost the same amount of damage as it does right now in the long run, but would really benefit when the CS buff procc'ed, however it would also reset the cooldown again, so it's not THAT huge. A 5/10% chance for an attack to refresh is not game changing, when in reality it's either a 5% or less chance to actually work. Same thing with the Exorcism proc idea. It's by no means "OP", because it's simply taking the damage that we already do, and changing it into different forms that are more interesting.

Sigh. Do you not understand how incredibly random this would make our dps though, in PvP and PvE? I get what you're trying to say, but there is absolutely no freaking way Blizzard will ever allow us to reset the cooldown on what would end up as our very biggest nuke. You'd see arena matches won and lost on a CS buff proc, and that's retarded. Who cares if Divine Storm isn't going to be up for another 20 seconds, when you just unloaded Judgement DS CS DS HoW on someone and they're in bloody pieces all over the floor.

You're basically asking for a Sudden Death style ability, with a class that has no real resource constraint like Warriors do - we already can just run up to someone and attack them with everything that we have, right off the bat. Like someone said once, we start fights with a full rage bar, every time. That right there is why we have so much issues with PvP and PvE balance.

[Baabinator]

Easy way to fix/improve Ret dps system in PvE, While NOT increasing burst damage in PVP:

1. Divine Storm's damage reduced to 70% weapon damage. +40% evenly distributed per sec over 6 seconds. The DoT cannot crit and is considered HOLY damage. Damage over time increased by 25% if the target is afflicted by Righteous Vengeace
-More damage, LESS BURST

2. Exorcism now deals all it's damage over 18 seconds, but now is usable again vs players.
-Again ALOT more pve damage (see 3)

3. Casting Consecration will increase all Holy (so proc DoT's from trinkets aren't effected) damage over time effects by 20% while standing inside the area you casted Consecration. Buff lasts for 30 seconds, and will be removed once you leave the consecrated ground.
-AGAIN more pve damage, with little to NO effect in pvp.

The DoT's would mean that they would use it with care in order not to overwrite Repentance etc in pvp.

[Horn]

Easy way to fix/improve Ret dps system in PvE, While NOT increasing burst damage in PVP:

1. Divine Storm's damage reduced to 70% weapon damage. +40% evenly distributed per sec over 6 seconds. The DoT cannot crit and is considered HOLY damage. Damage over time increased by 25% if the target is afflicted by Righteous Vengeace
-More damage, LESS BURST

2. Exorcism now deals all it's damage over 18 seconds, but now is usable again vs players.
-Again ALOT more pve damage (see 3)

3. Casting Consecration will increase all Holy (so proc DoT's from trinkets aren't effected) damage over time effects by 20% while standing inside the area you casted Consecration. Buff lasts for 30 seconds, and will be removed once you leave the consecrated ground.
-AGAIN more pve damage, with little to NO effect in pvp.

The DoT's would mean that they would use it with care in order not to overwrite Repentance etc in pvp.

Definately one way to go about it, although as it stands your idea would probably cut the legs from under ret burst, which in essence is all ret has going for it. If you did something like this PvE dps would increase but it looks like it would further lower ret(ret=/=holy) representation in all arena brackets(not that I care, but alot of people do and anything to make them anyless viable probably won't make it past a ptr) without making up for it with any form of cc, distance closing ability, or interrupt.

[kailtas]

How about this.

Rightous vengeance.

Causes every crit with any judgement, crusader strike and divine storm to cause a stacking damage over time on the target causing 30% of the critical strike damage.

stacking does not mean u will se the same icon with a number on it but instead u would see.

rightous vengeance: judgement (lasts 10 sec / 8 sec talented)
Rightous vengeance: crusader strike (lasts 6 sec)
Rightous vengeance : divine storm (lasts 10 sec)

damage ticks every 2 sec.

[fiffer86]

To the people who make the
To these types of people: You are totally fine with these "hyrbids" being leet tanks and healers to do your dirty work so you can put on your dps goggles and wipe the raid then post the meters about your leet dps. However, if we want to follow your "they are hybrid so they shouldn't be as good as pure" argument, then they should be only average tanks and healers, and not be able to MT anything. Oh wait, all tanks and healers are some how hybrid, which means if you followed your own logic you would never be able to ZOMG DPS because no tank could stand up to a boss and no healer could keep them up. It is a Ret tree for a reason, it is a balance tree for a reason, they are meant to be used for dps purposes.

/end hypocrisy here please.

Now onto the real topic of the thread. I wonder if we could some how get reckoning back into some form. It has been banished to middle prot so no one could really use it since the hotfix. As presently composed it isn't OP, the old version was. I wonder if they could make it a ret talent and be used as a proc abilitiy when two abilities crit giving you an extra swing for 8 seconds, kinda like the instant pyro of a fire mage or somehting like that. Of course seal damage would have to come down a bit to compensate for this but it would give us something to actually have to look for instead of just facerolling and revive a long dead but fun talent.

Well your just bending the argument to your "side of the train tracks". Of course a "pure" dps class should excel at dps. Just like how any class with healing/tanking ability excels at those abilities. Of course you have to balance the game out. It would be unfair to mages, locks, rogues, and hunters if there damage was nothing but "comparable" to all other classes. Just like what your suggesting, it wouldn't be fair to all the tanks/healers if they buffed all those classes damage spec's to be on par with mages,locks, rogues, and hunters just to get there healing/tanking trees nurfed. Untill locks and hunters can affectivly tank all content with there pets, rogues get the ability to dodge tank (with lower dps when in "elusive" stance"), and mages have the ability to heal, of course "pure" dps classes should have an edge over hybred. Or else what is the reason to have pure dps in a raid, when all hybrids can do just as good dps, have more buffs, and have the ability to stop dpsing and OT, back up heal if needed? (and this is already hapening, the need for pure dps calsses to be in a raid is getting smaller and smaller).


Now as to how to fix Pally ret dps simple... it shouldn't be fixed. BUT I personally think all classes that have multiple roles they can fill through different spec's should get a huge buff to there support when spec'd into a damage tree. So this would mean Ret, Enhancment, Elimental, all dk dmg spec's, balance/fearl cat, shadow, and arms/fury would have all there dps lower then locks, rogues, hunters, and mages. BUT all these spec's would considerably buff the raids dps.

So instead of your pally doing 5k dps, he would be "nurfed" to do much less. But depending on how many people are in his group his raid buffs would get better. So in a 25 man, maybe the Ret pally would be pulling 1k dps himself. But because he is in a 25 man, his buffs (which would be his current, and of course you would need to implement new buffs) would scale up to that party lvl, and would be improving the raids damage by 4k+ threw his raid members.

Now personally I believe this is they way Blizzard originally intended it. But when they started balancing off of PvP it became that much harder to do. Because having spec's that are dps support would be very hard to balance in PvP. Yet its the way it should be done.

But relistacly, the way WoW is headed, ret dps will eventually get on par with pure dps classes. And when this happens dont be surprised when Blizzard gives tanking abilities to Hunters and Warlocks. And around that time blizzard will just remove the Rogue and Mage classes.

[Handsylton]

How about this.

Rightous vengeance.

Causes every crit with any judgement, crusader strike and divine storm to cause a stacking damage over time on the target causing 30% of the critical strike damage.

stacking does not mean u will se the same icon with a number on it but instead u would see.

rightous vengeance: judgement (lasts 10 sec / 8 sec talented)
Rightous vengeance: crusader strike (lasts 6 sec)
Rightous vengeance : divine storm (lasts 10 sec)

damage ticks every 2 sec.

I don't PvP, so the changes that I'm talking about don't really consider the changes that it would make to current Ret PvP. I'm Not worried about frontloading damage, as Ret seemingly is supposed to be frontloaded, or Blizzard wouldn't have nerfed RV and given us Exorcism the way they did. To be honest, adding buffs that are completely passive is not changing our combat system whatsoever, and is still the same FCFS which can be fun, but is mostly just faceroll. I'm not talking about reducing burst, because I don't think that's what Blizzard even intends to do. A more interactive combat system is all that is required to make paladin DPS more interesting to play. Getting this through passive talents and abilities does nothing to change anything about what we do at the keyboard, but proc-based attacks would actually give us a little more structure, as well as making us less faceroll.

And addressing the person that said that having DS on a 20 second cooldown wouldn't fix the problem of giving it a proc-based RNG talent, with an extremely slim chance for it to proc, 2.5/5%, it definitely would not be a gamebreaking change. If anything, it would take one less nuke away ALL the time, giving us less burst. Plus, lowering seal damage would make a chain of attacks would not nuke the person down all the way whatsoever, because these attacks would be hitting for smaller amounts do to the buffs in other areas of our DPS.

[Handsylton]

Arbitrary numbers. Just to show what I mean.

Seal damage = 45% of our damage.
CS = 20% of our damage.
DS = 15% of our damage.
Judge = 10% of our damage.
Exo = 5% of our damage.
HoW = 5% of our damage.
HW = 0% of our damage.

Reduce seal damage by 20%. We now have freed up 20% of our total damage to do other things with. Now, buff DS by 10%, making it our hardest hitting attack. We still have 10% of our total damage to play with.

Create a talent called "Exorcism of the Unjust" - When Exorcism lands a critical strike, the next cast of Holy Wrath will cost no mana. Two talent points, for a 50/100% chance of this procc'ing. If you do the math with a 50% crit raid buffed paladin, that's a 50% chance of procc'ing. Holy Wrath would make up 5% of our single target DPS. So we have a 50% chance that our DPS will be between 90/95% of what it is right now.

Create a talent called "Hammer of Vengeance" - When Crusader Strike lands a critical hit, "Holy Vengeance" will be placed on the target, allowing Hammer of Wrath to be used for 5 seconds. Casting Hammer of Wrath will consume the debuff. Two talent points, 50/100% chance of this ability procc'ing. That's a 50% chance that our DPS would be between 90/100% of what it is now. Add the two procs together, the number is more like 95/100% of what it is now. The damage caused by HoW would effectively double because of the procs, giving us a total of 100/105% of our current damage in PvE.

PvP would not suffer because Exorcism and Holy Wrath would still not be usable against players, so their DPS would be more along the lines of 90/95%, and with lessened seal damage, OP would not be the case anymore. Blowing all of our cooldowns in a row would not kill anyone in one set of specials, and giving all paladins an Arcane Torrent like ability would give us another silence, adding utility for the tradeoff of lowering our damage done in arenas.

Yes I realize that white swings were not included in my figures, but this was simply a representation of our special abilities and how we could change them to keep our current damage without being faceroll. Think three different AoW procs that all did different things. We watch for AoW procs already and it's something to look for, think of how much more interactive our system would be if we had three procs like this. Sounds pretty awesome to me.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

I'd rather go with a compounded trigger effect, rather than a proc to 'watch for' that feels no better to me than just 'watching for' cooldowns. Any class who says "But sometimes I proc this, and get to hit the button" is no different than a Ret Paladin watching CDs.

By a compound trigger effect, I mean:

Crusader Strike: Deals whatever damage, and adds a charge of zeal, each charge of zeal decreases the cooldown of Crusader Strike by 1 second, stacking up to 5 times. 8 second cooldown. Zeal lasts

Exorcism: Deals whatever damage (As a growing DoT, ala Curse of Agony), but when talented, consumes one zeal charge to deal the same damage in half the time.

Divine Storm: Consumes one zeal charge every second to deal whatever holy damage to 4 people and provide whatever % as healing to 4 people blah blah blah. If your exorcism is active on the target, it deals 300% extra damage for 2 seconds.

There, now the Paladin starts with Crusader Strike > Exorcism, and then tries to load as many crusader strikes in as possible before Exorcism expires, then at the last moment, Divine Storm, and a final Crusader Strike to extend the duration of Divine Storm slightly. The later you Divine Storm, the better your damage, and of course with crit and AP in flux, different options become slightly better, such as fewer or more frequent Divine Storms, whether it's better to unload at CDs or wait full durations, etc.

[Encheph]

Ret deffinately needs something to make it more interesting, most boring dps spec ive played

Personally i love the enhancement shamman play style. Watch for MW charges (build 5 for instant cast lightning spells or heals), your main attack buffs your primary damage type (nature) and you have shocks and 2 instant melee attacks to use, plus dropping fire totems every 20 seconds and keeping lightning shield up, its pretty busy but really fun.

At the end of the day i dont really care if i did 8k dps if i was bored out of my mind doing it, so id like to see some changes. Hell, prot is way more fun to play than ret, but i guess ppl have better chances to show off the ol' epeen if they are dps.

I like the Zeal charges, sorta like MW charges but used differently which is cool, gives ret a second resourse to monitor. RNG stuff is cool too but i remember not too far back about the complaints of it all and how WoW was becoming to RNG.

Oh too, If you havent tried Ret in PVP you should, its actually pretty fun, having only 3 or 4 cd's to worry about there isnt so bad b/c you gotta chase ppl around, true its not the most complicated thing to do but its good for blowing off steam. and despite us being "face rollers" we have some cool utitlity like hand of sacrifice and divine sacrifice, bubbles for teamates and a long cd cc, plenty of stuff to benefit a group...

anyhow i dont really have any descent idea's for fixing it but pondering about it wont do much, blizz doesnt like to implement bigger changes, they will probably just give us another band-aid fix b/c they really only seem to care about the numbers on spreadsheets too

[Astray]

So instead of your pally doing 5k dps, he would be "nurfed" to do much less. But depending on how many people are in his group his raid buffs would get better. So in a 25 man, maybe the Ret pally would be pulling 1k dps himself. But because he is in a 25 man, his buffs (which would be his current, and of course you would need to implement new buffs) would scale up to that party lvl, and would be improving the raids damage by 4k+ threw his raid members.

Once upon a time there were support classes. Their DPS was lame but they greatly supportet their groups. which was appreciated by the group.
Wait it was not. They were constantly picked on for being such a broken loser class.
The only way to make all specs equally in worth and fun to play is to make every spec able to do the job. Ret needs competitive damage. No support-spec bullshit. no half things. 5% below the pure classes damage, not 10% , not 20%~ 5%!

[Handsylton]

I'd rather go with a compounded trigger effect, rather than a proc to 'watch for' that feels no better to me than just 'watching for' cooldowns. Any class who says "But sometimes I proc this, and get to hit the button" is no different than a Ret Paladin watching CDs.

By a compound trigger effect, I mean:

Crusader Strike: Deals whatever damage, and adds a charge of zeal, each charge of zeal decreases the cooldown of Crusader Strike by 1 second, stacking up to 5 times. 8 second cooldown. Zeal lasts

Exorcism: Deals whatever damage (As a growing DoT, ala Curse of Agony), but when talented, consumes one zeal charge to deal the same damage in half the time.

Divine Storm: Consumes one zeal charge every second to deal whatever holy damage to 4 people and provide whatever % as healing to 4 people blah blah blah. If your exorcism is active on the target, it deals 300% extra damage for 2 seconds.

There, now the Paladin starts with Crusader Strike > Exorcism, and then tries to load as many crusader strikes in as possible before Exorcism expires, then at the last moment, Divine Storm, and a final Crusader Strike to extend the duration of Divine Storm slightly. The later you Divine Storm, the better your damage, and of course with crit and AP in flux, different options become slightly better, such as fewer or more frequent Divine Storms, whether it's better to unload at CDs or wait full durations, etc.

You're effectively looking for a rotation that looks something like the third phase of Maly... and not to be negative I hate ripping on other people's ideas but I don't think we would benefit much from a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2/3 rotation.

And from the sounds of it, it would go something like "CS, wait 8 seconds... CS, wait 7 seconds... CS, wait 6 seconds... CS, wait 5 seconds, ok Exorcism. CS, wait 6 seconds... CS, wait 5 seconds... CS, wait 4 seconds, Exorcism... DS, consumes all your zeals, 300% nuke, and let's restart.

It just sounds like way too much downtime. Now if they reduced all the cooldowns but reduced the damage so it was a faster paced system, then yeah I could see that working. I don't really see the 8 second sit around and do nothing period between the first and second attack though, that's just too much nothing.

[amk]

If there was an 'easy' way to fix/improve Ret DPS for PvE, it would have been implemented by now.

[Handsylton]

Two things.

The first being that I think the biggest problem with our combat system is that no damaging abilities are based off of other damaging abilities. We don't have something that "lights up" when another ability procs a talent. AoW is interactive and nice, and it gives a nice damage buff while offering utility with the instant FoL's. I know that I look out for AoW procs in raid, and it gives me something else to do besides stare at my action bar looking at my cooldowns. Creating two more of these "proc" talents would honestly be beneficial in my eyes. When you think about what AoW does, and imagine have two more abilities like this, I think there's a lot of promise in a system like that.

The second thing is that we are so frontloaded because 60% of our damage is holy. It goes right through other people's armor and resistances, therefore making a very large chunk of our damage unavoidable and nonresistable. Lowering our holy damage while buffing our physical damage through these proc talents I'm talking about would effectively lower our burst, as we're doing less damage per hit per say, but the procs would let us make up this damage in added physical attacks that a person can possibly resist or dodge, making it more even in PvP.

Take 20% of our damage from seals away. That's 20% of our holy damage that makes us so frontloaded. Now redistribute this damage into added physical attacks through procs. We still have the same amount of damage as we did before and a battle system that is more interactive. This would also encourage paladins to not run away from ArmorPen, which I believe any melee class should not be running away from. When you're a class that is hitting with physical attacks, you should be thinking about this stat.

[amk]

The second thing is that we are so frontloaded because 60% of our damage is holy. It goes right through other people's armor and resistances, therefore making a very large chunk of our damage unavoidable and nonresistable. Lowering our holy damage while buffing our physical damage through these proc talents I'm talking about would effectively lower our burst,

That's not what makes our damage frontloaded. What makes our damage frontloaded is that we have no rotation, and all our DPS abilities work at 100% peak damage without requiring any setup outside of Vengeance stacks.

Some examples:

Kitty Druid - uses Rake before Mangle = DPS loss
Hunter - uses Steady Shot before Viper Sting (glyphed) = DPS loss
Blood DK - uses Blood Strike without having Icy Touch on the target and before Plague Strike = DPS loss
Enh Shaman - uses Earth Shock before a Stormstrike = DPS loss

Ret Paladin - uses Divine Storm before Judgement of Light = no change
Ret Paladin - uses Crusader Strike before Consecration = no change
Ret Paladin - uses Judgement of Light before Exorcism = no change

If a Hunter's Viper Sting is dispelled before the Hunter can activate his Steady Shot, you have avoided some damage
If a DK's diseases are dispelled before a Strike, you have avoided some damage
If a Ret Paladins Heart of the Crusader / Vindication / Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice is dispelled.....you haven't avoided any damage at all.

The only thing close to resembling a Ret Paladin rotation is if you have the Arena Libram, you get a discernable DPS increase from leading with CS. Otherwise in the end, it doesn't really matter what order you push buttons, and in PvP, if your target shows up while your CS is on cooldown, it matters not, since your Judgement, Divine Storm and Auto Swing will do the exact same amount of damage as always.

You could make all our damage Physical and we would still have the same problem.

All a Ret has to do is push a button and they get maximum efficiency from that damaging ability, which makes it unpreventable in PvP, and makes it mindless in PvE.

I'm not saying playing a Ret is 'easy', because imo it isn't. That is why I can see such a tremendous difference between good Rets and bad ones. A good Ret will be doing alot more then DPS in an Arena/Raid environment.

But this is why Ret PvE DPS has been crap for the most part in WoTLK. Blizzard cannot buff it to compete with other hybrids simply because it would make us 1-shot nukes in Arena. But, if we had a DPS rotation similar to say a DK, where you need to ramp up your diseases and RP before you can unload your nukes, then our damage can be increased without fear of us running around 1-shotting good PvP players.

Amusingly, this issue has been brought up again and again and again since I can remember starting my Ret back in TBC. We have always wanted a 'rotation'. If only Blizzard had payed as much attention to us back in TBC as they do now, alot of the current woes would have been resolved a long time ago.

[Handsylton]

That's not what makes our damage frontloaded. What makes our damage frontloaded is that we have no rotation, and all our DPS abilities work at 100% peak damage without requiring any setup outside of Vengeance stacks.

If you take 20% of our damage from each attack that we do away, it only makes sense that our attacks hit for less damage. Taking this 20% and placing it into Holy Wrath and Hammer of Wrath, both abilities we can not use in normal circumstances because of mana or it simply not being available, this effectively spreads out our damage. 5 attacks = 100% of our damage, or 7 attacks = 100% of our damage. Which do you think would be less bursty? Just looking at GCD's, that's unloading all of our damage in 7.5 seconds or unloading all of our damage in 10.5 seconds. Just changing this would make us extremely less frontloaded. Seconds matter in PvP, and 3 extra seconds to unload all 100% of your damage is a straight reduction in burst, and a straight move towards sustained DPS.