Glyph of Seal of Vengeance

[Whoopzz]

why have them spend rage on something we can apply for free?
offcourse if we loose any good utility or dps talent by speccing vindication its a waste but as i see it we won't realy loose any? or did i miss anything?
im not at my brightest moment having had a pretty bad cold for a couple of days and not eaten anything in the last 14 hours i think it is hard to keep track of time atm

This also was my thinking. By my count, we have 5 spare floating talent points, so why wouldn't you take it? The point of playing Ret is to bring all the utility you can. Besides, with the way Ulduar encounters have been designed (switching targets often, multiple tanks in different areas of the room, etc) this will surely come into play.

Its not like you're even using a GCD on it, its automatically applied...

[Offhand]

Prot will still be using this seal after the patch...does this upset you?

So far the changes haven't prevented prot from not using Sov or getting more out of another seal (i.e. righteousness). Most seals fall by the wayside anyway. Prior to 3.2 SoV, SoB, and SoW (glyphed) were the only frequently used seals. This changed would just cut it down to SoV and SoE. Light is only ever used while AoE grinding, SoJ is just lols. There's certainly room to make make another seal fully functional but I don't know how/why you would want to do that. Prot does holy damage to a target to generate TPS, ret does the same thing for DPS.

Screw that, and you ya stupid ret paladin.

Seal of Vengeance has always been the tanking seal, I even used it back in BC over righteous because it was that awesome.

If you want your own special seal, use command.

I wouldn't run around shouting about SoV being godly in Burning Crusade. It was a definite TPS loss compared to SoR. The proc rate averaged out to about 15 seconds for a full 5 stack, which was then removed once you hit judge, not worth it by any means. It was reworked to proc on every hit and not remove the stacks in Wrath, that's when it became the premier tanking seal.

[Whoopzz]

Sad as it seems, I would expect it to be changed, 10 expertese is a lot for one glyph. Its not a big issue now because of SoV's low damage, and the fact that Prot palas don't get as much out of expertese compared to other tanks.

Perhaps they will introduce/change another glyph to compensate prot pallies, while changing this to something more sensible for ret, perhaps Glyph of Righteous Fury granting 10 expertese, while the SoV glyph is removed or toned down.

I was unable to get the SoB glyph for a couple of raids after 3.1, so I ran with the old consecration glyph and had few mana problems, so only a minor tweak to mana costs and/or JoTW is needed to compensate for the mana lost from not having the SoB glyph.

While I'll take anything Blizz gives Ret (because lets face it, we need all the help we can get), 10 expertise for that glyph IS huge. I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed or nerfed.

I'm curious how glyphed SoR would stack up against SoC, since the judgements will be significantly weaker on Command. Would like to see a write up on it once the PTR is released and we know some numbers.

[Draco cracona]

So far the changes haven't prevented prot from not using Sov or getting more out of another seal (i.e. righteousness). Most seals fall by the wayside anyway. Prior to 3.2 SoV, SoB, and SoW (glyphed) were the only frequently used seals. This changed would just cut it down to SoV and SoE. Light is only ever used while AoE grinding, SoJ is just lols. There's certainly room to make make another seal fully functional but I don't know how/why you would want to do that. Prot does holy damage to a target to generate TPS, ret does the same thing for DPS.

I wouldn't run around shouting about SoV being godly in Burning Crusade. It was a definite TPS loss compared to SoR. The proc rate averaged out to about 15 seconds for a full 5 stack, which was then removed once you hit judge, not worth it by any means. It was reworked to proc on every hit and not remove the stacks in Wrath, that's when it became the premier tanking seal.

Wrong. In BC the stacks didn't fall off when you judged; this has never happened, and in fact it was competitive TPS if you could keep it up, which needed a few pieces of expertise items. I used it for the latter half of BT; it was definately viable, although after ~1k SP pre-flasks/oils etc. SoR was better afaik.

[BREWBIZZLE]

totally wrong thead but i hear a lot of mana concerns and oom post so i thought i would metion

Paladins
Glyph of Seal of Command: Redesigned to cause the Paladin to gain 8% of base mana each time the paladin judges Command.

[Whoopzz]

totally wrong thead but i hear a lot of mana concerns and oom post so i thought i would metion

Paladins
Glyph of Seal of Command: Redesigned to cause the Paladin to gain 8% of base mana each time the paladin judges Command.

How does this post contribute to the thread in any way? Everyone is aware of that glyph, besides, this is a conversation about a complete different seal.

[BREWBIZZLE]

This also was my thinking. By my count, we have 5 spare floating talent points, so why wouldn't you take it? The point of playing Ret is to bring all the utility you can. Besides, with the way Ulduar encounters have been designed (switching targets often, multiple tanks in different areas of the room, etc) this will surely come into play.

Its not like you're even using a GCD on it, its automatically applied...

i thought this thread was about a glyph....

[Whoopzz]

i thought this thread was about a glyph....

Bad trolls are bad. Save us the trouble of reading your incoherent and meaningless posts.

[Ronark]

First off, sorry for the long post

Good idea, I like it. It wouldn't make it overpowered, and would be very usable for both Protection and Retribution paladins.

People would probably start qq'ing about paladins having infinite mana again, and our JotW would be nerfed again, so that's a no-go. Also, that's the whole concept of the current Seal of the Martyr and (upcoming) Seal of Command glyph. It's not really original, but a good idea still. Also, I don't think it should scale with the damage it does. Really. People with scrub gear should get the same mana out of it as people with good gear does. But again, I have no idea how to improve that, really.

The thing was, that a good enough player did NOT have to use Glyph of SoB, and drop it for a DPS-increasing glyph. The same can happen with the (new) SoC glyph, but as I've said before in other topics, with JotW and the SoC glyph you would gain 33% base mana per judge (that insane magic number that we had on the Pre-LK PTR patch realms before the X-pac).

Screw that, and you ya stupid ret paladin.

Seal of Vengeance has always been the tanking seal, I even used it back in BC over righteous because it was that awesome.

If you want your own special seal, use command.

After a hard day of work, this made me lawl

Perhaps like Claw for feral druids, Seal of Rightousness for prot and Seal of Command for ret are only going to be intended to be used while lvling up before you get the newer ability that replaces them.

I don't remember Ferals having to use a Talent point on Claw...

So far the changes haven't prevented prot from not using Sov or getting more out of another seal (i.e. righteousness). Most seals fall by the wayside anyway. Prior to 3.2 SoV, SoB, and SoW (glyphed) were the only frequently used seals. This changed would just cut it down to SoV and SoE. Light is only ever used while AoE grinding, SoJ is just lols. There's certainly room to make make another seal fully functional but I don't know how/why you would want to do that. Prot does holy damage to a target to generate TPS, ret does the same thing for DPS.

I wouldn't run around shouting about SoV being godly in Burning Crusade. It was a definite TPS loss compared to SoR. The proc rate averaged out to about 15 seconds for a full 5 stack, which was then removed once you hit judge, not worth it by any means. It was reworked to proc on every hit and not remove the stacks in Wrath, that's when it became the premier tanking seal.

SoE? Seal of Energy? >.>
Seal of Light is used in FoL Ulduar-Specs, and SoJ is used by Prot healers in Arena when talented.

As said before, the judgeing on the old SoV did not remove the stacks: The onyl change to SoV come Wrath-time was that all paladins had it, and that it had a 100% chance to be applied on hit.

Sad as it seems, I would expect it to be changed, 10 expertese is a lot for one glyph. Its not a big issue now because of SoV's low damage, and the fact that Prot palas don't get as much out of expertese compared to other tanks.

Perhaps they will introduce/change another glyph to compensate prot pallies, while changing this to something more sensible for ret, perhaps Glyph of Righteous Fury granting 10 expertese, while the SoV glyph is removed or toned down.

I was unable to get the SoB glyph for a couple of raids after 3.1, so I ran with the old consecration glyph and had few mana problems, so only a minor tweak to mana costs and/or JoTW is needed to compensate for the mana lost from not having the SoB glyph.

I run with Judge, Cons, and Exo for Major glyphs and have no mana problems. Depending on the fight, I may have more mana issues (from running around and not always Judgeing every CD), but as long as you stick to the FCFS rotation you shouldn't have any issues at all: You barely need to spam DP once a minute.

To stay on track, I see the change you mentioned above as Highly Possible. +10 (pure) Expertise is a lot to give to a melee class: Its like making a Glyph of Titan's Grip that gives +20% Hit Rating o.O

I predict that the SoV glyph (if they change it, I hope they don't) will be made into either a "Your Holy Vengeance stacks an additional X time(s)" (making Judges and the DoT stronger) or "Reduces the length of your Holy Vengeance by X seconds" (more DoT damage in a faster time period).

[Ronark]

Another big change to SoV with wrath was that it procced off special attacks as well as auto attacks. IIRC during TBC SoV granted slightly higher TPS than SoR, however it only procced off your auto attack swings, which meant at the start of fights you were gaining very little threat from SoV for a few seconds, which is obviously the worst time to have bad tps.

In addition, the proc chance was actually quite low, in the days before you could stack expertese and hit up to cap in tank gear, this could actually see you losing all 5 stacks during the middle of a boss fight, leaving you another few seconds of bad threat as you built them back up. Remember that during tbc paladins only had auto attack (plus seal) consecration, judgement and holy shield as threat generators, so bad TPS from a seal really meant a lot, unlike now where I can happily tank heroics with SoW if I start running out of mana.

Back in TBC I usually used SoR, slightly worse TPS but much more reliable and zero "build up time".

Depending on the fight, if you used a Ret, you had them build up the stacks so the Prot could Judge off their 5 stack; In other words, the Prot would start with SoR, and switch to SoV when the Ret had 5 stacks up already.

Although, they changed this mechanic a while back ago and it no longer applies. And yes, back in TBC, the rate of how your stacks was applied was increased and based off your Spell hit chance... I.E. on a 73 mob, you had even less of a chance for the DoT to be applied.