> Ret paladin fix idea for PvP and PvE <

[Gryzorz]

Ret problem is as follows :

as long as you stay stupidly on every ability cooldown, as high thoses abilities will have to do damage to compensate -> in order to have a viable PvE dps.

Solution is to be never out of cooldown ? It could, but it'll be even more facerolling and boring and giving no real option during a fight (all are the same at the end)

Here's the solution :
Create a skill that the paladin can apply to an enemy, incresing damage done to it, and reducing damage done to others. stacks up 3 times. Lasts 10 sec, cannot be cancelled, refreshed by judgments. Instant & on GCD

* This way, if the paladin do not want a high single-target dps, he does not use the skill and have same dps as now.

* Otherwise, it uses 3 GCD to apply 3 debuffs (or 1 or 2 depending on the estimated fight length), then the pal can dps normally.

It solves the probelm, because pal has to choose between :
- either normal aoe AND good "switch" dps
- either very good single target dps as an expense of being stuck at least 10 sec + decreased dps on other targets

PVP :
I think it solves evey problem, even in pvp, because the pal will have to spend 3 GCD at close combat distance to gain dps, which is quite long in arenas to be worth it (even more when it fades in only 10 sec).

PVE :
For PvE purpose it's not a problem : spending 3GCD when we know the fight will be long is not that much, especially when it's refreshed by judgments. In quick switch fights, the pal doesn't touch anything, he already has a very good initial dps.

I even have a name : Stubborn revenge

What do you think of it ?
Did I miss to consider something important ?
(btw excuse some wierd formulation, i'm French ^^)

[Lark]

how is this all that different from the sov implementation

[Gryzorz]

You choose without having to switch seal
+ there is no dot to tune, all attackes remain the same (= easy tuning)
+ you cannot refresh the skill on multiple targets (solves pvp issue)
+ you can still be viable in PvE when you have to switch target often (solves all ret worries about having a new pve seal based on dots)
+ flexible because tou can still use it on quite short fights by only choosing to put 1 debuff
+ as it's not a seal switch, it's much more flexible, because you don't have to spend a GCD to "get back to normal"

These are a few differences I see that solve a lot of problems we have right now

[Masamichi]

Fix burst by being burstier? In arenas, you're just always going to be on the healer. Extra damage, and you don't typically instantly drop them in the first place.

This seems to be a rehash of, "Ret should be able to kill healers," which is fascinating, since it's not like anyone else can alone, either.

[Mysmere]

Fix burst by being burstier? In arenas, you're just always going to be on the healer. Extra damage, and you don't typically instantly drop them in the first place.

This seems to be a rehash of, "Ret should be able to kill healers," which is fascinating, since it's not like anyone else can alone, either.

yes, yes they can. throw a renew or 2 on a warrior and he'll kill anything but a druid.

[Gryzorz]

spend 4 sec each time you switch target to gain dps is a big drawback, moreover when resilience will be even more usefull.

Instant burst is dangerous, because you can start bursting someone else 3 sec after removing 10k from primary target.
With this system it's impossible.

And spending 4 sec to gain dps will definitely buy healers lot of time to prepare themselves, regain some cooldowns, etc...

I'm completely unable to kill a decend prepared&skilled resto druid/chaman/priest, even in complete PvE gear, unless i can burst him *before* he stacks up dots/has nothing else to do/etc.... Now with 4 sec of stacking debuffs, they'll have plenty of time to get prepared + they know we won't switch because of heavy dps loss. All they have to do is call their friend to help and paladin gets owned.

Ofc it requires team coordination...

[Gryzorz]

(back to topic)

+ no need to worry about different weapon speed making the dot stack at different speed !

[Masamichi]

yes, yes they can. throw a renew or 2 on a warrior and he'll kill anything but a druid.

Posted by a pally to an actual warrior. Hilarity ensues, but this is totally untrue. More often than not:

Totally ignore the warrior so he never gets rage and therefore never does damage. His healer dies. Next?

Edit: I actually missed this, but ... I said 'alone'. You said 'warrior with healer'. I have to lol at both of us (but mostly you).

[Lubu]

I don't like your solution because now I have to waste cooldowns on a debuff instead of on damage. On top of that, I have to waste THREE global cooldowns and refresh the damn thing every 10 seconds before it falls off. In a 5 minute fight I'll have wasted more time applying a buff that wasn't the result of a dps attack than any other class. That's not a solution.

I personally like the direction they're going. I like the idea of holy dots. Frankly, it just needs to be finely tuned. If they were smart they would have based ret dps on sword and board back in the day. Let the shield be used as a weapon. It would make all the newbs happy who want dual wield ret and still retain the feel of a paladin. But what do I know? XD

[cøøkíes]

How about instead of reducing our attack speed when we pop bubble it should reduce ALL DAMAGE DONE (i mean all damage WE DO) by 50% maybe increase self Healing by 25% so that it encourages them to heal instead of just pop bubble and run around swinging i dunno just an idea kinda tired of seein changes every week i understand how input from players can be helpful but one has to wonder how much bliz is catering to the massive QQ'rs cause lets be honest its become "Cool" to complain about pallys and when i have the time i'll try to set up a forum about the current QQ trends and what classes havent felt the nerf bat that should and which have been hit too hard and set up a poll to go along with it but its 100 degrees today so i'm going to go hide in a dark room under a fan

[Mysmere]

Posted by a pally to an actual warrior. Hilarity ensues, but this is totally untrue. More often than not:

Totally ignore the warrior so he never gets rage and therefore never does damage. His healer dies. Next?

Edit: I actually missed this, but ... I said 'alone'. You said 'warrior with healer'. I have to lol at both of us (but mostly you).

the "alone" theory implies that the healer doesn't actually help kill the healer with dps.
a ret pally needs a good healer who can actually do more than just jump in circles and heal
most other melee does not
rage starving doesn't work because the enemy will inevitably die to the ms after all

[zcks]

Id be fine with them nerfing our burst even lower if they would make up for it by giving as an actual ranged snare/gap closer and some form of a ms, all we have ever really had for offensive utility was the burst and without that we just have defensive utility which can be easily countered by just about every class and spec in the game.
What i don;t understand is how they expected buffing seals to fix our problems in the first place, seals have been the number one source of burst and damage for us for ages. If they had any common sen sense they would have just reduced the damage of seals across the table then gave ret and prot more attacks & tools with a variety of effects and shared cool downs that would have seperated the bad players from the good ones and put allot of variety in the way the class is played for the situation.

[Masamichi]

the "alone" theory implies that the healer doesn't actually help kill the healer with dps.
a ret pally needs a good healer who can actually do more than just jump in circles and heal
most other melee does not
rage starving doesn't work because the enemy will inevitably die to the ms after all

Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about. As a warrior, yes, the rage starvation is an issue. I could say something very rude about your lack of practical knowledge, but will attempt to remain civil here.

MS is only useful if there's an actual DPS to back it up (not a warrior). This defeats the purpose of 'alone'. I've spent plenty of time doing ~10-15% of a priest's health in damage in the gaps between his Weakened Soul, while killing myself on his reflective damage; MS+Overpower (which should result in only 25% healing getting through) is not enough to kill a disc priest. A resto druid has an auto-snare and a chance to stun me for hitting him when barkskin is active. I can Shattering Throw a holy pally (the only healers I ever kill, even then not alone), but a smart holy pally waits for the cast bar and HoJs me. Resto shammies have snare totem and a damage totem to chip away my health; I waste valuable CDs trying to clear those, or ignore them at my own peril (next patch they'll have the improved escape mechanic of GW). Why should pallies be special and be able to kill healers on their own?

Please answer that for me, and also justify why they need to be so great 1v1. If you can manage to do it in a way that doesn't come across as, "I deserve to be OP because", then I am all ears.

[zcks]

I never said we should be able to kill healers solo Masamichi, just that we have always had burst as our only real offensive option.
Without any tools to slow the enemy, reduce there healing, keep pressure on a healer through burst or stay on a caster for more than a couple seconds we effectively loose our usefulness in pvp as ret because while we can heal ourselves and our teammates with defensive abilities it takes a large toll on our mana.

[Masamichi]

I never said we should be able to kill healers solo Masamichi, just that we have always had burst as our only real offensive option.

I don't know why you're speaking as though I've addressed you, or as if you've posted in this thread before. But, hey, responding to your points:

Ret doesn't need a gap closer. You have a stun, and you have a snare immunity to always be caught up with someone, so they can't get away (unless they have an escape mechanic ... that's what escape mechanics are for, BTW). Ret doesn't need a silence until they stop destroying clothies and silences actually matter. I don't think pallies in general need more ranged abilities, and I believe this sentiment was echoed in the pally Q&A.

Without any tools to slow the enemy, reduce there healing, keep pressure on a healer through burst or stay on a caster for more than a couple seconds we effectively loose our usefulness in pvp as ret because while we can heal ourselves and our teammates with defensive abilities it takes a large toll on our mana.

Yeah, because the warrior's offhealing and survivability are so superior? I'm sorry, way too many of these posts seem to decry being forced down to a level playing field. I have no sympathy for that attitude.

To be honest, it IS possible that ret will be over-nerfed, because class balance is dictated by class population. You (like myself) have the misfortune to be playing a 'popular' class. This popularity is fallout from lolret, so don't expect anything at all in the way of buffs until the populations even out. Even then, if they spike, expect more nerfs.

But I have yet to be convinced that this is overnerfing, considering how little survivability most people in equal gear will have against a ret pally until resil is very high.

[zcks]

yeah, because the warrior's offhealing and survivability are so superior

true these abilities are useful on pve but there crap in pvp where I'm likely to have an ms on me and fighting a target that is likely out of my melee range so I have no way to regenerate mana, also warriors have not 1 but 2 gap closers a spamable snare & a fear on the same cool down as our bubble.
What you don't get is that defensive tools alone are not enough to make ret any good at arena, many of us would gladly trade in some of that defense for some offensive abilities like a ranged snare or a weak ms. Even more so now that we are losing our burst.

Ps if you think hand of freedom is so godly you have obviously never fought a good mage, hunter or warlock because they can run even a good ret paladin in cricles all day with the paladin having no real way to catch them

[Dayn9]

yes, yes they can. throw a renew or 2 on a warrior and he'll kill anything but a druid.

So true.
The idea is really good, yes.
As good as the one that i found on US forums.
( It ain't my idea, and sorry, my english is so bad i know )

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I've posted this somewhat on the Damage Dealing forum, in that huge thread. But I figured i'd post it here so it can get a bit more scrutiny from actual Paladins that presumably actually play the class

The concept is deceptively simple:

Seal of Vengeance procs *can* apply multiple Holy Vengeance stacks. The number of Holy Vengeance stacks applied is equal to the number of Vengeance stacks on the Paladin, with a minimum of 1.

Any class of Paladin that does not have the Vengeance talent will always apply 1 Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
When a Ret Paladin has 1 stack of Vengeance, they will apply 1 Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
2 stacks of Vengeance -> 2 stacks of Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
3 stacks of Vengeance -> 3 stacks of Holy Vengeance per seal proc.

How is this beneficial?

Imagine you are dps'ing a mob, whether it's trash or a boss or whatever. You have been dps'ing for a while, and your crit rate isn't awful, so you have 3 stacks of the Vengeance buff on you. Along comes an add, a phase change, something of that nature and you have to switch targets.

Under the current system you have to laboriously rebuild a 5 stack of Holy Vengeance before your seal is fully functional.

Under this proposed system, since you "carry" a 3 stack of Vengeance over to your target, it only takes two seal procs to cap out at 5 Holy Vengeance and reach maximum dps. This is because each seal proc hit on your new target applies 3 stacks of Holy Vengeance.

In other words, it's easier to switch targets.

Consider all the small windows of "required burst dps" (such as XT's heart, yogg saron's brain, etc) where the new Seal of Vengeance suffers in Ulduar. Each of them is usually preceeded by dps time on something else, where you can build up Vengeance such that you can more quickly ramp up to 5 Holy Vengeance on a new target. Also consider the power of such a system on a multi-mob, multi-part boss like Mimiron, where you move from tank to turret to aerial command unit. Debuffs don't carry over from part to part - but buffs on you do.

3 stacks per proc is considerably better than 1 stack per proc. It still takes time to ramp up, and it's not a shortcut to one-hit effectiveness. This brings the bar down from 5 hits to 2 on new adds. If you look at most of the complaints levelled against the new SoV functionality in a PvE context, new adds and windows of opportunity are where it really suffers. This will directly help with those situations.

Thoughts/flames?

[Gryzorz]

On top of that, I have to waste THREE global cooldowns and refresh the damn thing every 10 seconds before it falls off. In a 5 minute fight I'll have wasted more time applying a buff that wasn't the result of a dps attack than any other class. That's not a solution.

Try reading the OP before posting

[Gryzorz]

Shameless bump

[Vodalos]

So true.
The idea is really good, yes.
As good as the one that i found on US forums.
( It ain't my idea, and sorry, my english is so bad i know )

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I've posted this somewhat on the Damage Dealing forum, in that huge thread. But I figured i'd post it here so it can get a bit more scrutiny from actual Paladins that presumably actually play the class

The concept is deceptively simple:

Seal of Vengeance procs *can* apply multiple Holy Vengeance stacks. The number of Holy Vengeance stacks applied is equal to the number of Vengeance stacks on the Paladin, with a minimum of 1.

Any class of Paladin that does not have the Vengeance talent will always apply 1 Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
When a Ret Paladin has 1 stack of Vengeance, they will apply 1 Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
2 stacks of Vengeance -> 2 stacks of Holy Vengeance per seal proc.
3 stacks of Vengeance -> 3 stacks of Holy Vengeance per seal proc.

How is this beneficial?

Imagine you are dps'ing a mob, whether it's trash or a boss or whatever. You have been dps'ing for a while, and your crit rate isn't awful, so you have 3 stacks of the Vengeance buff on you. Along comes an add, a phase change, something of that nature and you have to switch targets.

Under the current system you have to laboriously rebuild a 5 stack of Holy Vengeance before your seal is fully functional.

Under this proposed system, since you "carry" a 3 stack of Vengeance over to your target, it only takes two seal procs to cap out at 5 Holy Vengeance and reach maximum dps. This is because each seal proc hit on your new target applies 3 stacks of Holy Vengeance.

In other words, it's easier to switch targets.

Consider all the small windows of "required burst dps" (such as XT's heart, yogg saron's brain, etc) where the new Seal of Vengeance suffers in Ulduar. Each of them is usually preceeded by dps time on something else, where you can build up Vengeance such that you can more quickly ramp up to 5 Holy Vengeance on a new target. Also consider the power of such a system on a multi-mob, multi-part boss like Mimiron, where you move from tank to turret to aerial command unit. Debuffs don't carry over from part to part - but buffs on you do.

3 stacks per proc is considerably better than 1 stack per proc. It still takes time to ramp up, and it's not a shortcut to one-hit effectiveness. This brings the bar down from 5 hits to 2 on new adds. If you look at most of the complaints levelled against the new SoV functionality in a PvE context, new adds and windows of opportunity are where it really suffers. This will directly help with those situations.

Thoughts/flames?

I think this could be a good Idea but you need to post it on official forum if you wan't devs be abble to see it. So you're not playing on US serv and you need someone to report it on official forum for you.