Destruction warlocks and haste.

[Jona]

Bah, there's multiple ways to find one precisely accurate derivative.

But how many ways are there to prove it? ;-)

[gherkin]

I play like Gwills, but I am stuck with a SP trinket "On Hit" trinket because none drop for me :P

I am usually #2 behind a warlock with better trinkets and more haste. I think a new trinket will push me over, despite my 500 crit rating and paltry 200 haste.

[nocturnus]

cvarto explained why he feels crit has a high enough value to itemize towards pretty well. That doesn't change the fact that it's a feeling, countered by theory craft's hard numbers:

haste>crit

Whatever you may feel, think or like to see. Haste does have a significantly higher value than crit for a variety of reasons. The primary reason is that sustained damage > burst damage. The secondary, yet very important reason is that crit is gained in very high amounts when fully raid buffed.

Gemming for crit, is always a bad idea, because you're basically wasting options t gain more spell power. Especially after the release of epic quality gems.

Presenting various 'play styles' as reasons to itemize towards crit is far from plausible. There is one ideal rotation, one ideal glyph combination and one ideal dps spec when min-maxing. If by play style you intend opinions as to what you like to see (e.g. big numbers) then anything is acceptable.

If you aim for the highest possible damage, SP has the highest value, very closely followed by haste. Crit falls behind and is bound to be considered a bonus stat, rather than a stat one seeks at the cost of other stats.

Whatever works for you, is fine and understandable. Yet, I don't think it should be presented as an equally good way of itemizing as it has been proven many time it's not.

[gherkin]

I can think of instances where gaining haste is a bad thing and increases your dps by zero. Computer simulations only go so far before personal experience has to kick in. Not every fight favors haste. Movement can negate the haste gain.

Case and point, 10% haste results in 2.8s extra cast time every 30 seconds. However, if you have to move 1s into a cast, that means you only have 1.8s extra cast time. That's 3.6% of your net haste itemization completely wasted.

Haste is only "THE STAT" when you know how to maximize your cast times and movement times. As soon as you clip a spell it becomes devalued. You have to know when to let a cast finish, or even when to start a cast, so that you survive and the spell goes off.


And just to be clear - gems should be Spell Power simply because .85 SP = 1 Haste = 1 Crit, but 1.5 sp = 1.3 Haste = .8 Crit. You get more point for point damage out of spell power than the other two.

[Knuffelbert]

I can think of instances where gaining haste is a bad thing and increases your dps by zero. Computer simulations only go so far before personal experience has to kick in. Not every fight favors haste. Movement can negate the haste gain.

Case and point, 10% haste results in 2.8s extra cast time every 30 seconds. However, if you have to move 1s into a cast, that means you only have 1.8s extra cast time. That's 3.6% of your net haste itemization completely wasted.

Haste is only "THE STAT" when you know how to maximize your cast times and movement times. As soon as you clip a spell it becomes devalued. You have to know when to let a cast finish, or even when to start a cast, so that you survive and the spell goes off.


And just to be clear - gems should be Spell Power simply because .85 SP = 1 Haste = 1 Crit, but 1.5 sp = 1.3 Haste = .8 Crit. You get more point for point damage out of spell power than the other two.

Imagine you have to move 2 seconds into your cast with crit stacking, the haste stacker can cast to end, you have to abort. Gaining another 2 seconds. It work's both ways.

I'm pretty good with movement and I love haste because of that. If I see some AoE coming to my place I can still finish 1-2 casts before running and it doesn't screw my rotation as much as if I ran earlier.

Since we are on to personal, anecdotal evidence. I love hast, but I'm aiming for 500-550 unbuffed too.

[power-akama]

any hybrid spec with master conjuror = spellstone
any destro spec without master conjuror = firestone

Fixed !

When you have to spend more than 20 points in more than one tree, in my book you cannot say your a specific spec.

[gherkin]

Imagine you have to move 2 seconds into your cast with crit stacking, the haste stacker can cast to end, you have to abort. Gaining another 2 seconds. It work's both ways.

I'm pretty good with movement and I love haste because of that. If I see some AoE coming to my place I can still finish 1-2 casts before running and it doesn't screw my rotation as much as if I ran earlier.

Since we are on to personal, anecdotal evidence. I love hast, but I'm aiming for 500-550 unbuffed too.

Yes, but the Haste Stacker has traded personal skill for using a stat as a crutch. The other guy could learn to maximize his cast times and ensure every cast finishes while the Haste guy plods along unaware of his handicap.

I'm all for making the game easier, but you should not actively seek out crutches to do so.

[TerryBogard]

Spellpower is the number one stat to gem for. Second is crit. Third is actually spirit with the lifetap glyph. Fourth is haste. Haste is a very interesting stat that can severely screw over an inexperienced players rotation. You should be able to get more than enough haste through gear and trinkets to never have to worry about socketing for it. I am by no means an expert on stat allocation but whenever my haste rating changes I always practice on a target dummy to work out the kinks in my rotation.

This will all change when spirit and spellpower no longer exist for warlocks but until that time, if you are unsure, gem SP.

[Knuffelbert]

Yes, but the Haste Stacker has traded personal skill for using a stat as a crutch. The other guy could learn to maximize his cast times and ensure every cast finishes while the Haste guy plods along unaware of his handicap.

I'm all for making the game easier, but you should not actively seek out crutches to do so.

Where do you trade for personal skill when equiping haste? There is nothing exclusive about it.

It might be that you misunderstood me. I'm not finishing 1-2 casts because I'm too stupid or to slow to move, I activly choose not too move until the cast finishes because my "skill" is high enough to know that I can move out in time and deal superior DPS due to that.

[gherkin]

Where do you trade for personal skill when equiping haste? There is nothing exclusive about it.

It might be that you misunderstood me. I'm not finishing 1-2 casts because I'm too stupid or to slow to move, I activly choose not too move until the cast finishes because my "skill" is high enough to know that I can move out in time and deal superior DPS due to that.

Haste is relative. It's a hard concept to explain in text only. Basically, if you can predict the movement then having a few seconds off your spell to finish it sooner doesn't matter, because you're already out of the way of the danger and casting a new spell. Thus, if you're a bad player (which I am not suggesting YOU are, just some people in general) then Haste is letting you finish spells you should never have casted in the first place.

I'm not saying Haste is bad, just that it's not as good as people claim it to be.

[Kelpie]

Haste is relative. It's a hard concept to explain in text only. Basically, if you can predict the movement then having a few seconds off your spell to finish it sooner doesn't matter, because you're already out of the way of the danger and casting a new spell. Thus, if you're a bad player (which I am not suggesting YOU are, just some people in general) then Haste is letting you finish spells you should never have casted in the first place.

I'm not saying Haste is bad, just that it's not as good as people claim it to be.

Second to SP, its the best stat to stack for destro locks.

[gherkin]

Second to SP, its the best stat to stack for destro locks.

... as recommended by software that currently models Raid vs Target Dummy. I'm not saying abandon haste, or that haste is bad. By all means, Haste will result in more damage most of the time. But my original point is that there are times where Crit and Haste are equal in value, despite what SimCraft tells us.

[Kelpie]

... as recommended by software that currently models Raid vs Target Dummy. I'm not saying abandon haste, or that haste is bad. By all means, Haste will result in more damage most of the time. But my original point is that there are times where Crit and Haste are equal in value, despite what SimCraft tells us.

Certainly, but even in fights where haste is extremely devalued (because of the nature of the fight), I still wouldn't bet that it is better than Haste...rather, they are on equal footing.

So if Haste is better is most fights, and Crit and Haste are on even ground for the rest of them, then Haste is still more highly valued - in general - than crit.

[Jona]

... as recommended by software that currently models Raid vs Target Dummy. I'm not saying abandon haste, or that haste is bad. By all means, Haste will result in more damage most of the time. But my original point is that there are times where Crit and Haste are equal in value, despite what SimCraft tells us.

I think Simcraft is based on a specific (customizable) raid setup, which includes buffs. The argument you're making, I think, is that the "boss" in question used by Simcraft is actually Patchwerk, which is effectively a targeting dummy.

In any case, the value of a stat is going to change based on the fight, the current gear you have, your glyphs, and your spec. To further complicate matters, the value of your current gear, your glyphs, your spec, and your prospective gear/stats are also relative to each other. In other words, with so many combinations, it's imperative to know in what context the value of a specific stat, item, glyph, talent point, or even spell/ability changes relative to the others, and by how much; this is the information that Simcraft doesn't give you, because it simulates only a very narrow, specific scenario and ignores many outside factors and to what degree they are effective or ineffective. In short, the mathematically correct answer is going to fluctuate, often massively, because your variables (said items, stats, glyphs, etc.) are going to change based on other factors (movement, items, stats, glyphs, etc.). You essentially must recalculate, mathematically, every element of the equation in every given situation in order to achieve an understanding of what is the optimal choice in such a scenario. Since this is nigh impossible, you have to eyeball and make judgment calls based on your understanding of the change in dynamics; the right answers are there, but they change so frequently, that you mainly want to aim for a general idea and understanding of how the stats, items, glyphs, etc. work together and affect each other relatively in order to make the "correct" judgment call on the matter.

Forgive the wall of text. I just get tired of people having the "absolute correct answer." It changes. Frequently. Stop talking in absolutes.

[Slotter]

This is an interesting thread with lots of good information. It is kinda making me question my own gem setup. Would it be adviseable for me to re-gem to increase my haste and sacrifice some of my spell power? I'm a pretty experienced warlock with pretty good gear but I'm always looking to better myself.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eredar&n=Slotter

[gherkin]

Forgive the wall of text. I just get tired of people having the "absolute correct answer." It changes. Frequently. Stop talking in absolutes.

I'm a bit confused. I rarely speak in absolutes, but you quoted my comment - could you clarify what you mean?

[TwistedPower]

Get the haste soft cap (this soft cap acheaved WITH raid buffs) Then you dont need any more haste becuase its binifits drop drastically. Spellpower is then better.

The spellstone IS used when you dont have enough haste to reach the soft cap. After you have the soft cap the flat % inc from fire stone is better becuase like i said before after the soft cap haste is not as good for your dps anymore.

Spellpower is generally going to be better for you followed by crit (asuming your at the hast soft cap). If your getting socket bonuses then for red you can do spellpower, and yellow get the orange spellpower+crit. If you want blue sockets i would ask sombody posted above get spirit (as it does convert to spellpower a little in many ways) and spellpower get, So spirit+spellpower purple gem.

I would sugest getting haste NOT in your gems. From what you can read on elietest jerks gemming for hit is HORRIBLE point for point as gemming for spellpower or crit is. So get items with hast. Dont gem for it.

[Deleted]

to clear this mess up, haste is good really REALLY GOOD!
sometimes better than Spell Power yes

the HASTE cap is when you hit gcd with THAT spell you cast, and you WILL HIT the cap under a hero.
the haste cap (for destruction locks) have been discussed overall and i will quote 2 things i like

The haste given from BL / Moonkin Aura / WoA =
1.3 * 1.03 * 1.05 = 1.40595

%haste needed to cap GCD while under the effect of those buffs with DoTs and Immolate would then be:
1.5 / 1.40595 ~= 1.067 (6.7%)

Haste rating to cap with Immolate/DoTs:
6.7 * 32.79 ~= 220 haste rating

%haste needed to cap GCD with Chaos Bolt (2s cast):
2 / 1.40595 ~= 0.423 (42.3%)

Haste rating to cap with Chaos Bolt:
42.3 * 32.79 ~= 1387 haste rating
For Incinerate it will be ~= 1967 with Emberstorm

TLDR: Your first cap should be reached at about 220, the next at 1387. Unless you are sitting at so much haste that you get past 1387 with a haste trinket proc you shouldn't have to worry too much about the cap.
At Hodir and Vezax your Incinerate will haste cap at ~220 haste rating:
(32.79*(100*((2.25/(1.40595*1.5))-1)))

Original Casting time /(1+Haste in percent) = Real Casting Time
The GCD, before haste, is 1.5 seconds.
1.5 seconds / (1+X) = 1 second, where X is equal to 50% Haste
1% Haste = 32.79 Haste Rating
50% Haste = 1,639.5 Haste Rating = Haste Cap
Raid Buffs
Wrath of Air Totem = 5% Haste
1.5 / 1.05 = 42.9% or 1,406.7 Haste Rating to cap.
3/3 Improved Moonkin Form = 3% Haste
1.5 / 1.03 = 45.6% or 1,495.2 Haste Rating to cap.
Both WoA & ImpMF:
1.5 / (1.03*1.05) = 1.5 / 1.082 = 38.6% or 1,265.7 Haste Rating to cap.
Bloodlust
1.5 / 1.30 = 15.4% or 504.97 Haste Rating to cap.
WoA, ImpMF & Bloodlust:
1.5 / (1.30*1.03*1.05) = 1.5 / 1.406 = 6.7% or 219.69 Haste Rating to cap.

Talents

Eradication
1.5 / 1.20 = 25% or 819.75 Haste Rating to cap.
Backdraft
1.5 / 1.30 = 15.4% or 504.97 Haste Rating to cap.

counted WITH backdraft in HERO 504-507 is CAP in a buffed raid(?)
otherwise it is like ~1300 to cap /backdraft?

personally i would say stack haste to ~505-510 (504.97 IS CAP).
Have sp+haste gem til you get 510haste then go sp+crit til you can sort it out
ofc haste is good (REALLY GOOD) over 510+ but you will hit cap in a hero/bl and i like crit more than have some wasted haste.



..and if you DONT have Master Conjuror spell stonewill never be better than fire stone

Int=0.56 Spi=0.75 SP=1.55 Hit=3.27 Crit=1.01 Haste=1.52

get HIT CAPPED go SP->HASTE->CRIT
get (SOFT)HASTE CAPPED go SP->CRIT->HASTE

IN A BUFFED RAID WITH SHAMANNNZ

please answer this post and the math is from fuzz and Hexergrimm

[Bakis]

Spellstone is always better than firestone..always.

(he's refering to destro)

No, as many pointed out, Destro = use firestone, Affliction = use spellstone. Period!
Socket for softcap of haste and benefit from the +1% damage with Firestone.