Retribution PvP-Issues... an attempt in solving them

[zcks]

One thing many of the newer poster on here do not realize or are ignoring is the fact that ret burst was cut down greatly in 3.2 & in 3.2.2 prot is having the cool down on hammer of justice extended to 30 seconds when fully talented.

As is when 3.2.2 hits ret will be the most vulnerable class/spec when it comes to cc, sure we may be able to remove snares from ourselves but that does nothing against cc. +our little +15% run speed talent that we spend 2 points on is nearly useless because the meta gem for run speed or the boot enchant increases run speed by just about as much.

Were not asking for much just a small snare and interrupt, & many of us ret paladins would gladly sacrifice a little bit o our healing potential to get them (say 10-20% less healing done by fol & holy light)

[Crucis]

As is when 3.2.2 hits ret will be the most vulnerable class/spec when it comes to cc, sure we may be able to remove snares from ourselves but that does nothing against cc. +our little +15% run speed talent that we spend 2 points on is nearly useless because the meta gem for run speed or the boot enchant increases run speed by just about as much.

HoF can also remove stuns talented + 15% run speed also gives 50% disarm reduction (meta /boots are +8% run speed inc btw)

Also, paladins will never be 'the most vulnerable' when it comes to cc as long as they have their bubble.

[Kairu]

HoF can also remove stuns talented + 15% run speed also gives 50% disarm reduction (meta /boots are +8% run speed inc btw)

Stuns yes, disarm DURATION not chance reduction.

Also, paladins will never be 'the most vulnerable' when it comes to cc as long as they have their bubble.

Yes, break one CC on a 5minute cooldown. Awesome.

But honestly, proper use of Divine Sac//Hand of Sac breaks plenty of CC, so I think we're fine in that department.

[Denisé]

First of all, I think you did a great job making up these ideas, instead of whining about the lack of abilities, you try to envent new ones.

I really felt the change Paladins received in Retri, healers were hard before, but without any real abilities to put preasure on them, Blizzard have changed it from hard, to impossible. Try see how many retri paladins that play 2v2. (I know 2v2 aint all of WoW, but it gives a picture).

I do however agree on the PvE part, I think what you have made up, is too big a change PvP wise. A real solution would be something more simple, for instance give us the same ability as fury warriors, who can place a healing debuff on target. I know that a healing debuff for all classes isnt a real solution, but I cant think of another change that would be that easy to make.

[DaGhostDS]

But honestly, proper use of Divine Sac//Hand of Sac breaks plenty of CC, so I think we're fine in that department.

doesnt work on a lot of cc.. lol

work on slow, stun

doesnt work on getting froze in place (frost trap, mage something..)
sap
cyclone
blind
and many more

but anyway i just want my interrupt

[Kairu]

doesnt work on a lot of cc.. lol

work on slow, stun

doesnt work on getting froze in place (frost trap, mage something..)
sap
cyclone
blind
and many more

but anyway i just want my interrupt

Slows, mostly cleansable, stuns, freedom them.

Frozen in place, frost trap, you're boned. But the mage's is a stun, you can freedom it.

Sap, your partner takes damage, breaks your sap.

Cyclone no.

Blind, your partner takes damage, breaks your blind.

Edit: Removed a misleading comma

[pande]

i lold

This, nearly every one of these changes is so unreal op that you need to start smaller before making suggestions :/

[Krothar]

Hell, i do even remember, when there was the seal of the crusader for improved attack speed at cost of attackpower and incresed holy dmg , when judged...

You say this like its old..? It still did that in what... TBC?

Seal of the Crusader was once simply "Crusader Strike" that was learnt at level 10 and started doing 12 damage which stacked 5 times.

Seal of Rightiousness was simply "Holy Strike" learnt at level 1, dealing 11-12 damage on your next swing. Yeah, your an old player, but I'm older.

I'm also bored.

[zcks]

I don't see how you guys can think a 25% snare on judgment of justice or a 2 second interrupt on exorcism would be op. If you combine the 25% snare with the 15% run speed increase we get from 2 talent points you end up with 40% speed difference & that is still nowhere near the 60% snares that all other melee classes have. As for the interrupt every other melee class except shaman has one on a 10 second cd that is instant (shaman is 15 second & instant but does damage), if you were to tie a 2 second interrupt onto exorcism it would be very balanced because it still has a 15 second cd and has to have an art of war proc to be instant.

Now for giving us a healing debuff I can see where allot of ppl would say no you can heal to well to be allowed to get one. but what if blizz were to reduce the amount of base healing done by flash of light & holy light by say 20% then stick a talent deep in holy that increases the healing they do by 20%. this would reduce ret healin g just enough to allow a small (say 5%) stacking healing debuff to be applied by crusader strike that would stack 4-5 times. This would also prevent gimmic arena specs like proly from popping up again.

[XtreO]

One thing many of the newer poster on here do not realize or are ignoring is the fact that ret burst was cut down greatly in 3.2 & in 3.2.2 prot is having the cool down on hammer of justice extended to 30 seconds when fully talented.

And still we see plently of rets doing it big in Arena. Ret paladins are obviously not as useless as you want them to be. I guess it all boils down to personal experience.

As is when 3.2.2 hits ret will be the most vulnerable class/spec when it comes to cc, sure we may be able to remove snares from ourselves but that does nothing against cc.

Who is NOT vunerable to CC? Paladins can just bubble out of it, not at all worse that what some classes can boast.

+our little +15% run speed talent that we spend 2 points on is nearly useless because the meta gem for run speed or the boot enchant increases run speed by just about as much.

Funfact: metagem and boots enchant does not stack and increases your runspeed by 8%. So your 'useless' talents give nearly twice as great a speed increase. Countless times Ive been outrun in arena by a ret paladin following my healer because his speed increase amount to twice as much as mine.

Were not asking for much just a small snare and interrupt, & many of us ret paladins would gladly sacrifice a little bit o our healing potential to get them (say 10-20% less healing done by fol & holy light)

If you got much, you only want more it is said. Your post proves it.

[Kairu]

have. As for the interrupt every other melee class except shaman has one on a 10 second cd that is instant (shaman is 15 second & instant but does damage),

Shaman's are on a 6s cooldown, 5 if talented in ele.

[Retrogames]

First, welcome to the MMO Champion forums. I wouldn't worry too much about your English; you're already leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of people here who have been speaking it all of their lives.

As for your idea, I think you're on to something by making the choice of Judgment have a greater impact than it currently does. I'll address each of your points in order;

I.) Repentance made baseline, duration and cooldown cut in half. Also make it work on Elementals. Not breaking on damage from dots applied from the paladin.

Even though it has fallen out of favor with Blizzard, CC is still a valuable PVE Raid Utility, something that Retribution still needs all the help it can get with. Holy provides healing, Prot provides tanking and off-tanking, but Ret really only brings DPS. To give them more utility, I would suggest keeping Repentance in the Ret tree, but it could arguably sit lower in the tree. With Blizzard moving stat-boosting talents into Talent Masteries, it is likely Conviction will be removed.

Therefore, I would suggest moving Vengeance to the current position of Conviction, and move Repentance up to replace it. This gives Ret some CC without making it low enough in the tree for every spec to grab.

II.) Crusader Strike moved from 41-point talent to 31 point talent. Add another glyph which adds a secondary effect: Each time, CS hits the target, targets movement speed will be reduced by 2 % for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.

I would honestly suggest making Crusader Strike a baseline ability, gained around level 30 or so. Leveling as Retribution, there is a distinctive lack of things to do; judgment and auto-attack is really about it.

Crusader Strike could then be improved for each tree; perhaps deep Holy gains the ability to Crusader Strike from a longer distance, similar to Enlightened Judgments. That contributes to Holy DPS (which is suffering) and Shockadin builds. Prot could have a debuff that reduces AP, which would allow Vindication to do something more interesting.

Ret, on the other hand, could have the movement speed reducing effect you've mentioned, and saves a Glyph slot. I do think that stacking 5 times would take too long, as others have suggested. A more interesting option might be a debuff that lasts 15 seconds and decreases the target's speed by a flat rate PLUS an increasing penalty based on the target's distance from the paladin. For example;

Unrelenting Crusade:
Deep Retribution
Your Crusader Strike reduces the movement speed of the target by 8%, plus 2% for every 4 yards they are away from you, to a maximum speed reduction of 20% (8% + 2% over 20 yards). Lasts 10 seconds.

Obviously that would be subject to diminishing returns, and the numbers are just there for show, but it would be an interesting mechanic for closing gaps without having to add a new ability... especially not a Charge or Death Grip rip-off. And it kind of makes sense in a cool way; the further you run to try and avoid justice, the harder it gets. The numbers would have to be balanced in such a way that running from a paladin is still easier than it is to run from, say, a Warrior or DK, but much more difficult than it is now.

III.) Divine Storm moved from 51 point talent to 41 point talent.
Explanation:Moved to make room for new 51 point talent.

Another button for Ret to push earlier? Fantastic. I know you're just making room for a new talent, but I still think that Retribution's problem is that the first-come-first-serve rotation leads to a lot of just button spamming (i.e. facerolling). More buttons to press is always a good thing.

IV.) New 51point-talent! Unstoppable Faith, costs X % base mana, xx second cooldown (reduced by glyph)

The paladin's faith is so strong and pure, that the light itself will assist him in the battle against his foes. Based on the current judgement on the target, the following effect will occur.

Judgement of Light: The grace of light radiates at its target and will absorb 25 % of all incoming healing effects up to a maximum of xxx healing absorbed. Cannot be dispelled.

Judgement of Wisdom: The heavenly wisdom itself will be looking at the target, increasing the cost of all spells done by the target by 20 % , until xxxx Mana has been absorbed or until y casts have been made. Also increases casting time of ALL spells by 0.x seconds. This also applies to instant cast spells. Cannot be dispelled.

Judgement of Justice: Inspired by the holy hymns of the heavens, the paladin will become furious to bring justice to his target. Instantly increses movement speed of the Paladin by 60 % and removes all movement impairing effects. Effect ends, when the paladin does the first hit at any target or casts a spell or after 10 seconds. Cannot be dispelled.

If no Judgement is active on the current target, the effect of Judgement of Justice will apply.

First, I like the idea, as I said. When I PVP, I tend to stick with Judgment of Justice, because most of the time I'm going to benefit more from slowing people down than getting a little health or mana back. So this talent is going to instantly add another element to think about, and have me considering which judgment is best for each situation. That's a good thing.

The Judgment of Light effect serves as a Mortal Strike-like effect with a self-imposed limit, which I think keeps it from being too overpowered. It also makes the effect work in a different way than MS, which is pretty important; instead of taking another ability straight away, you've changed it to be more paladin-like. I'm not sure about the numbers though: I'd rather see it reduce less healing, but have a higher limit so it lasts longer.

The Judgment of Wisdom effect is fantastic, and something I've wanted Paladins to have for a long time.Paladins are a zealous bunch who are out to smite evil in all its forms. Shadow magic is a no-brainer, but Arcane Magic has a long history of drawing evil to it, at least from a lore stand-point. Nature magic would seem to be fairly innocuous, but remember that Elementals are bad guys in the World of Warcraft too.

It stands to reason that Paladins would consider all non light-based magic to be something worth putting a stop to, at least from a lore standpoint. I think the increased cost of casting is a great way to do that, and the mechanic (x amount of mana) is fine without the limit of x number of spells being cast. I can see classes with the debuff quickly spamming cheap spells to clear the effect.

The casting time effect, however, is far too strong (but the druid-killing part of me wants to kiss you for it) as an additional effect. I think the mana cost increase OR the Casting time increase should be the sole effect here. I prefer the casting time increase, as it seems much more interesting and effective on more classes.

Finally, the Judgment of Justice effect. It's actually the only one I think needs changing. It seems too much like a second Hand of Freedom, though the limit in place would at least limit it a little. Implementing my Crusader Strike ability above would also make it less useful.

Also, unlike the anti-healing and anti-magic debuffs from Judgment of Light / Wisdom, this effect really only boosts the Paladin, and does nothing to the target; it works counter-intuitively. Rather, I think the effect should be something like this;

Judgment of Justice:
The target becomes inexorably tied to the Paladin's sense of Justice, taking x damage every second for x seconds. This damage is increased by x% for every yard the target stands away from the Paladin, up to a maximum of x damage every second.

Instead of slowing the target down, this debuff makes the enemy think twice about running, because even as they flee, they'll be feeling the paladin's wrath the entire time. Got a target you nearly finished off, but not enough for a Hammer of Wrath? If they run, they might just kill themselves off, or lower their health to HoW range.

It makes running away from a paladin SCARY, and puts the fear of justice in them. You may run. You may get away. But you'll pay a price, and if I don't get you, my friends probably will.

Paladins already have a Stun, a CC, and Judgment of Justice's movement-impairing effect. Adding the Crusader Strike debuff I mentioned above would give Paladins plenty of ways to close a gap while still having that as an established weakness. Because let's face it; paladins aren't warriors or DKs. They have a weakness against runners. Right now, it's too big of a weakness; with a little polishing, Kiting a paladin would go from stupidly easy to something classes really have to fight to do.

I'm looking forward into a constructive discussion without too many flames or trolls.

Good luck. Other classes tend to hang out in the Paladin forums just to make snarky little comments, as you've probably noticed. I hope my post, however, falls into the first category, and you won't be scared off by the morons, as it seems you have something worth while to share here.

[zcks]

And still we see plenty of rets doing it big in Arena. Ret paladins are obviously not as useless as you want them to be. I guess it all boils down to personal experience.
Who is NOT vulnerable to CC? Paladins can just bubble out of it, not at all worse that what some classes can boast.
Funfact: metagem and boots enchant does not stack and increases your run speed by 8%. So your 'useless' talents give nearly twice as great a speed increase. Countless times Ive been outrun in arena by a ret paladin following my healer because his speed increase amount to twice as much as mine.

If you got much, you only want more it is said. Your post proves it.

If you look at the amount of ret paladins in arena at 2k+ rating they represent an extremely small % compared to holy & prot/holy. As for our +15% run speed talent, we have that because we have no real gap closers or snares. Other classes have both, take warriors for example they have a spammable snare & 2 gap closers each with a 30 or less second cool down that allows them to get on their enemy even while snared.
The reason we are more vulnerable to cc is because we don't have these gap closers & snares. An enemy can use cc then get range on us and we have no way to slow them down or instantly close the gap, At this point asking for is a small snare is reasonable & if you cant see why we need one so badly you have never played a paladin in arena vs a ranged class.
Now As for you being outrun in arena because you couldn't catch the ret paladin ahead of you that just shows that you fail as a a warrior, all you had to do was use charge or intercept and you would have been on him instantly.

[nukson]

GTFO if you have nothing productive to contribute.

On topic... I think that these changes are very interesting. I played ret for a long time, not as long as OP, but since about mid-BC. Anyway, Paladins are at a very weak point in PvP right now. Whenever I would come up against a healer, it would be near impossible to kill them. Adding the judgment effects would actually make it possible to kill weaker healers.

The crusader strike change with the slowing effect is a good idea, but i think stacking to 5 would take too long. Maybe a 3 stack would be more appropriate.

I do disagree with repent not breaking though. Breaking on damage is fine, most people I talk to only use it as an interrupt anyway.

The judgment of justice speed buff should not be 60%. 30-40% may be better.

But this is from a retired ret pally that rarely pvp'ed anyway, so what do I know. Just wanted to chip in, and say that I like it.

Why should ppl have to bo constructive when the OP aint constructive at all? Have you ready it? Its just a "i need this, and this and this" post.

[Tosicx]

Yea i read everything and i must agree with u, ret pala is crap atm pvp wise, play with ret in 2v2 no mether what combo and reach over 2k, ill bow to u (not impossible just hard as fucking hell)
good read, from ur mouth to the gods ears (in this case blizzard ears -.-)

[Nest]

Oh feck off. Rets have too much burst. Get rid of Exorcism, instant Heals and make Hammer Of Wrath a cast again. That will make them reasonable in my books.

So GTFO and learn to play. There are many Rets getting high ratings now.

This.
Retardins are skill.

[Kairu]

This.
Retardins are skill.

^ butthurt.

Troll less.

[Wuke]

yep, retri palas are just fine right now.. ;D

[Monomo]

i lold

[Nichpish]

paladins have to be the easiest class to play imo

ret hello Crusader Strike Devine Storm and Judgement spam thats it......
holy Holy Light or Flash of Light and somethimes Holy Shock

id say that pally is a broken class....