Icecrown Citadel wholesale 20% avoidance nerf!

[un_known]

My only issue is that Blizzard has known this is an issue since Naxx, and yet rather than change their raid content design for boss damage, they just continued to stack tons of avoidance on gear. And now they are trying a hack of a fix rather than retooling how the gear itemization is and the core mechanics.

Just feels like a slap in the face because of their poor design decisions.

guess you never tanked in SWP when TBC was still around, they had sunwell radiance which *shock horror* was ALSO a -20% dodge nerf since the gear was doing the same thing as it is now, get over it, plus it does make sense, you're inside ICC a place where there's nothing but the harsh cold of course you're going to be slower dodging out of the way of attacks.

[Cirayne24]

This debuff will make UH worse for tanking and probably make Frost beat out Blood. Getting rid of spike damage will definitely increase the value of Frost talents.

[BoxofRox]

This debuff will make UH worse for tanking and probably make Frost beat out Blood. Getting rid of spike damage will definitely increase the value of Frost talents.

Due to the mitigation value of Frost. Though it is just this instance, and it is just PTR. They could hear enough of an outcry and actually listen and make the game easier, though we already "cater to casuals" too much.

[eint]

Due to the mitigation value of Frost. Though it is just this instance, and it is just PTR. They could hear enough of an outcry and actually listen and make the game easier, though we already "cater to casuals" too much.

This has nothing to do about "catering to casuals". This is Blizzard making a change that will fundamentally impact the bread and butter of the Death Knight tank in the form or Rune Strike. I will give them their time on the PTR, but this sort of change will be devastating to the number of Rune Strikes that Death Knights can use to build threat. I will have to agree with Ciyrane that with this sort of change I am expecting that Frost DW Death Knights will be the spec that dominates in the next Patch 3.3.

[Maggeddon]

Dw'ing deathkinghts will get more avoidence anyway with 2 runes of the stoneskin gargolye, so you wont be loosing the full 20%, as youll get 1% from each rune, as well as 1% parry and 1% miss, so you will loose 18% dodge but gain an extra 2% parry and 2% miss... making for an overall decrease in avoidence of 14%- compared to other tanking classes id say it was pretty good, apart from the whole runestrike business...

[crox]

Why is everyone being retarded about this?

This was done before in Sunwell.

It's part of the encounter.

It's relative.

[Sunshine]

Dw'ing deathkinghts will get more avoidence anyway with 2 runes of the stoneskin gargolye, so you wont be loosing the full 20%, as youll get 1% from each rune, as well as 1% parry and 1% miss, so you will loose 18% dodge but gain an extra 2% parry and 2% miss... making for an overall decrease in avoidence of 14%- compared to other tanking classes id say it was pretty good, apart from the whole runestrike business...

What? If you have > 20% dodge buffed, you're losing 20% dodge. What you do or don't gain relative to other specs by DWing is exactly the same as it would be now. The debuff doesn't affect one tank more or less than anyone else; everyone is affected the same amount.

[crox]

because death knights tanking mechanics were so popular during sunwell right ?

Yep.

[mattepatte]

Dw'ing deathkinghts will get more avoidence anyway with 2 runes of the stoneskin gargolye, so you wont be loosing the full 20%, as youll get 1% from each rune, as well as 1% parry and 1% miss, so you will loose 18% dodge but gain an extra 2% parry and 2% miss... making for an overall decrease in avoidence of 14%- compared to other tanking classes id say it was pretty good, apart from the whole runestrike business...

You dont get stoneskin gargoyle on one handers.
In 3.3 we have nerubian carapace rune thingy which is half the strength of stoneskin gargoyle but can be applied to both one handers.

[Alienganja]

I can see the headlines already...

EXTRA EXTRA
Non gamebreaking change results in mass QQ from tanking community!
Professionals agree this change is minimal at best, summed up by this statement from the President of the ICCRAPWWSC (Icecrown Citadel Raiders Association of People Who Will See the Content)

What? If you have > 20% dodge buffed, you're losing 20% dodge. What you do or don't gain relative to other specs by DWing is exactly the same as it would be now. The debuff doesn't affect one tank more or less than anyone else; everyone is affected the same amount.

However one angry noob replied

I dont seam to understand how ppl do not realise that this debuff will actualy incrise value of dodge rating on gear. Everybody who say thay will pass items with dodge now, are making big mistake. One additional percent of dodge has bigger value when u have less dodge then more. So go for items with dodge even more now.

This has sparked controversy and for lack of a better term, freaking out by the casual community. One observer made the comment "I don't understand how they don't get it, 20% across the board is 20%. If I lose 20% you lose 20%."

Another angry noob replied: "Diz is a nerfz to ma class"

back to you John.

[Jonisawsom]

This is Blizzard making a change that will fundamentally impact the bread and butter of the Death Knight tank in the form or Rune Strike. I will give them their time on the PTR, but this sort of change will be devastating to the number of Rune Strikes that Death Knights can use to build threat. I will have to agree with Ciyrane that with this sort of change I am expecting that Frost DW Death Knights will be the spec that dominates in the next Patch 3.3.

Ok, read again. Blizz said they are making bosses hit faster. That means over a 5 minute fight the boss will swing at you more times than say, the average t7/8/9 bosses. So even with the decreased avoidance (depending on the actual swing times and your own weapon speed etc) you could/should have similar numbers of RS hits. Of course we won't see actual numbers until the PTR tests so it's hard to say 100% which way it will go.

Right now you don't turn 100% of your avoidance into RS attacks, so don't just assume that a 20% decrease to avoidance will mean a straight 20% decrease to RS too. RS procs off of dodge and parry, so you should still have a good chance to proc it, and it might even be more reason to get more dodge/parry for extra threat. Again, at least wait to see the effect on the PTR before whining about something "devastating" your class.

[Shadowmelded]

Posting this again as everyone seems to be skipping over it...

Just quoting the first post of this type. Let's take that post and use those stats for an example of a 1 minute fight.

Tank has 52k hp in the raid with 25% dodge and 25% parry. That's 50% total.
Boss does 25k dps with a 2 second swing timer = 25k hits every 2 seconds.

Over the course of a fight you should avoid 50% of the boss swings. Boss swings 30 times over 60 seconds and 50% of that is 15 avoided swings. A theoretical 15 rune strikes (it happens that you could dodge 2 swings in a row before your next white hit but let's forget about that for now).

Enter Icewell radiance.
Tank now has 52k hp with 5% dodge and 25% parry. That's 30% total.
Boss does 25k dps with a 1 second swing timer = 12.5k hits every second.

Over the course of a fight you should avoid 30% of the boss swings. Boss swings 60 times over 60 seconds, and 30% of that is 18 avoided swings. A theoretical 18 rune strikes.

Congrats morons you just got a buff on threat. But to be realistic, the problem of avoiding 2 swings in a row before your next white hit is still there so the numbers are still theoretical, just like the tank avoidance and the boss swings. Seriously though you people need to read/comprehend/think more. All you read is a 10 or 20% nerf to avoidance and don't read the fact that boss should be hitting faster for less damage per hit.

On another note for DKs, their "block mechanic" of using death strike becomes more effective as well (possibly), maybe about as effective as pally/warrior block mechanics. Really only something to think about for blood DKs but still something to consider.

[zemerrock]

in all honesty, i freaked at first but then thought about it logicly and there really isnt going to be a "threat nerf" everyone is so concerned about. frost tanks are just going to be better off then the other 2 specs with their actual mitigation talents. blood will still be valued as higher health pools will be greatly valued, unholy is the only spec i cant see this as a good thing for, outside of a caster boss fight really.

also, its not like its going to kill rune strike completly, we still have parry, and even with that 20% base dodge debuff, if your currently geared, you'll still have about 10-15% dodge. stack those def gems boys, def miss chance just got a lot more important XD

[rabbimojo]

Ok, read again. Blizz said they are making bosses hit faster. That means over a 5 minute fight the boss will swing at you more times than say, the average t7/8/9 bosses. So even with the decreased avoidance (depending on the actual swing times and your own weapon speed etc) you could/should have similar numbers of RS hits. Of course we won't see actual numbers until the PTR tests so it's hard to say 100% which way it will go.

Right now you don't turn 100% of your avoidance into RS attacks, so don't just assume that a 20% decrease to avoidance will mean a straight 20% decrease to RS too. RS procs off of dodge and parry, so you should still have a good chance to proc it, and it might even be more reason to get more dodge/parry for extra threat. Again, at least wait to see the effect on the PTR before whining about something "devastating" your class.

They aren't making them hit faster. GC just cleared that up earlier.
They simply will hit more often due to the lower avoidance.

He's also said they will watch DK threat and determine whether an RS buff is necessary.

The sky isn't falling.

[blackcassiel]

You dont get stoneskin gargoyle on one handers.
In 3.3 we have nerubian carapace rune thingy which is half the strength of stoneskin gargoyle but can be applied to both one handers.

Ummm...yes and no that it is half the strength of our Stoneskin Gargoyle. Stoneskin = 25 def +2% stam and Nerubian Carapace = 13 def +1% stam. So, if you were to dual wield the Nerubian Carapace rune, essentially you are getting 1 defense more than the Stoneskin Gargoyle.

(I realize it isn't much of an argument. I just wanted to clarify it for people who don't yet know what Nerubian Carapace will do....http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=70164).

[agir215]

Blizzard over inflated stats and needed to fix it. We're all foaming at the mouth for new content since most of it's pathetically easy right now. So they come up with a quick fix.

Oh noes! tanks will take nearly constant damage. Constant small amounts of damage is better from a healing perspective than nothing for 5 minutes followed by a 30k spike and a second one 2 seconds later. If I have something to heal constantly I'll be less bored and if my tank isn't getting one shotted or otherwise ripped from 100% to dead in less time than I can cast a flash heal I'll be less stressed and RNG's will play a smaller role in raid wipes.

And as has been stated: Sunwell Radiance. This isn't new people.

[Jaggers]

You guys are missing the pvp pictures. :/

DKs are in a bad spot right now pvp wise. Tanks are already overpowered as is. With how much avoidance you guys are gonna be cranking in tank gear to make up for the 20% debuff in IC, tanks are going to be like a subtlety rogue, gemmed agility with evasion and ghostly strike popped at the same time haha.

[zemerrock]

You guys are missing the pvp pictures. :/

DKs are in a bad spot right now pvp wise. Tanks are already overpowered as is. With how much avoidance you guys are gonna be cranking in tank gear to make up for the 20% debuff in IC, tanks are going to be like a subtlety rogue, gemmed agility with evasion and ghostly strike popped at the same time haha.

OO if only..XD jk, i totaly rape people in pvp right now its not even funny..nerf us!