Lay on Hand messing up the tank?

[piffer]

changes are commin, no mather how we feel about it.

-> speakin for myself -> as pallytank -> that is doing pve content & never rapes specs & gear to get into a gymp state used in pvp -> this isnt the first change (lets not say nerf cause i really dont see the changes as nerfs anymore) that hase been brought on by, out of the 'PVPBOX' kind of thinking

BoS & the stam & str issue - protpvphealing is the easy example to make a reference to

Blizz says that the changes to come, dont find theire roots in a pvp based issue. - but if i read GC's posts i beg to differ (sadly enough)

this is part of what hase been said in the previous GC-posts

Paladins too defensive in PvP
I'll add it's also a problem where paladins as a whole are too defensive and not just the Protection spec ones. You see people
describing fighting a Retribution paladin as a three phase boss fight. You might get them down, but then they can reset the
fight with Lay on Hands. You get them down again and they bubble and heal. If you are up against a Prot paladin, you should be concerned with their capacity to take hits. If you are up against a Ret paladin, you should be concerned with how much damage they should deal. You should not, generally, be nearly as concerend about the Prot's ability to self-heal or the Ret's ability to tank you.

change us anyways u feel the need to, i believe its needed to make ICC a fun place for all classes of tanks & ... ofc the rest of the group aswell

but i find it to give me a twisted feeling to see some of the lore typical abilities (witch i love more for the use of it then for the lore part of them) to get a overhawl, for fixing pvp related Q to the Q.
but havin almost more effect on the pve community then on the pvp community

pvp community will keep finding ways to use the classmechanics to theire benifit, im 100%sure of that.
if they can they ll do it from every type of class
but they ll prefer to get imbalanced stuff out of hybrids, cause the base for any kind of use is in theire reach

well come what may, im ok with whatever i ll have to deal with
even going back to being the trashtank & nothin else but the trashtank

aslong as there is enough trash to tank where im raiding atleast ^^

[iglocska]

So if a random ret pally throws a LoH my way, I can't use bubble wall for 2 mins while tanking?

ty blizz.

[Marithas]

go for t9 4 pc then ;p

wee im having 30 sec time for another retardadin to throw loh at me

[Azyoulike]

Building on enraged regeneration angle that I mentioned in the other thread, perhaps it could function much like enraged regen (maybe a bit worse in terms of healing since you can cast it on others) and make the Holy talents give it some secondary effect such as damage reduction. This would give holy pallys a "tanking cooldown" in a similar vein to holy priest's Guardian Spirit, which would be nice for raid composition because it would reduce the occasional overreliance on one class (when we were first trying Mimiron we had to use 3 or 4 Holy Priests for the GS, which meant one or two shadow priests had to respec).

Thing is that Holy Pallies already have an available CD that does something like that - Hand of Sacrifice, bubble-sac is essentially the equivalent of a pain-suppression. I don't think that bringing 4 holy priests to Mimi was really about the GS - did you really need it up on the tank near 100%? Raids stacked priests for firefighter more for the (glyphed) holy nova spam than for GS.

Turning LoH into a targeted Frenzied Regen just seems like more crappy homogenization to me Unfortunately you may be right, it may be the only approach they can take - but I really hope they can produce something more imaginative.

[Marithas]

go for t9 4 pc then ;p

oooh and this change comes in 3,3 so t9 will be out of date for it

[cappytoi]

wee im having 30 sec time for another retardadin to throw loh at me

tell them not to use LoH on you, are they brainless?

[Stryik]

Yah I too am concerned about being able to LoH a Tankadin - it's my healing "Oh shit" button because lets face it - holy shocks 9k crit heals just don't do it.

I can't see this change going live though.

[Stryik]

since a picture is worth a thousand words

Duct tape fix is bs

Yah I'm getting sick of the forebearance "fixes".

[DaGhostDS]

since a picture is worth a thousand words

Duct tape fix is bs

[Marithas]

tell them not to use LoH on you, are they brainless?

well if its a guild run or well a run where ppl actually tend to use their brain for something other than calculating how dumb they were over the whole day, holydins will cast a heal instead a loh, rets spin in circles anyway and you try not to have 2 pala tanks in raid so you should have plenty of time enjoying you bubblewall


....in theory

[Abandon]

Yes, but it is using it that is the problem. Use it too early and you waste it, use it too late and you are dead.

Isn't that like most tanking cooldowns though?

[DaGhostDS]

Yah I'm getting sick of the forebearance "fixes".

its not just the Forbearance ''fixes'' its everything we had for this last year, everything is rushed and they dont even think what will happen...
Bubble is center to all problem, LoH was just a minor problem
and
Blizz just answer like : ''but its iconic to the class''
its fail Blizz get up your ass and do something

[Marithas]

Isn't that like most tanking cooldowns though?

most talking cooldowns last for some time (for like last stand that heals you for abit and after the healers fill u up your health is higher than usual, while loh just fills you up and thats it)


i give loh to healers, true story

[Marithas]

take my LoH away right now but answer 1 question please !

you blizzard promised us an utulity added to CS and a wondrous 11pt prot tree talent.






where are they??

they gave us divine sac, while bad for anything except raids (maybe even pvp on some scale) i think its enough
but cs utility is insta wep swing and....

[Azyoulike]

most talking cooldowns last for some time (for like last stand that heals you for abit and after the healers fill u up your health is higher than usual, while loh just fills you up and thats it)

Exactly. There's no way that you would rely on LoH to keep a tank alive through, for example, Plasma blast if you had any other available CD in the raid. It might help, or if it hit just as a HL hit from a healer it might do nearly nothing.

It's more like an old school tanking CD that is used reactively after bad avoidance RNG - but in wrath bad avoidance RNG leaves you dead if you didn't have a holy pally spamming HL. So most raids have that holy spammer, and a reactive tanking CD is somewhat irrelevant.

GC himself said recently that tank CDs have become something highly scripted into the encounter, and those are exactly the situations where LoH is weak.

[agir215]

The biggest problem with this change is that every major paladin cool down will now cause forbearance. Warriors, druids and DK tanks can use all their cooldowns in conjunction or rapid succession if the situation calls for it. Pallies however: needed avenging wrath to stay ahead of that warlock? better hope you don't take any spike damage, or that garmok's debuff doesn't stack one too high on you after the other tank's taunt misses. Did a holy pally misclick? better hope you're good on threat and health and that the predictable damage spike isn't coming soon.

LoH may be OP in some situations (I've soloed things I really shouldn't have by rotating cooldowns and using LoH in the middle of that rotation), but making every major pally ability mutually exclusive from the others can't be the way to go here.

[talii]

The biggest problem with this change is that every major paladin cool down will now cause forbearance. Warriors, druids and DK tanks can use all their cooldowns in conjunction or rapid succession if the situation calls for it. Pallies however: needed avenging wrath to stay ahead of that warlock? better hope you don't take any spike damage, or that garmok's debuff doesn't stack one too high on you after the other tank's taunt misses. Did a holy pally misclick? better hope you're good on threat and health and that the predictable damage spike isn't coming soon.

LoH may be OP in some situations (I've soloed things I really shouldn't have by rotating cooldowns and using LoH in the middle of that rotation), but making every major pally ability mutually exclusive from the others can't be the way to go here.

perhaps people were not intended to solo situations like you described...

looks like everyone will simply have to take into consideration cooldown management and utilizing which specific survival ability is most fitting for the situation instead of having a trusty back up should you choose poorly in either terms of time or selection.

hopefully blizzard in the future will rework some abilities such as loh that have become so situational their use is somewhat awkward and intent behind the ability hazy. until then this seems like a suitable work around, and outside of soloing things it's really a minor issue.

[Rhonen]

Any argument against LoH from a pve perspective is a veiled, idiotic attempt to try to justify nerfing it without acknowledging that it was specifically changed for pvp.

Argue against it in BGs. Sure.
Argue against it in 1v1 and world pvp. Ok.
It has no affect on your never-been-balanced e-sport.

Argue against it in a pve environment? You're reaching. You can slowly diaf for all I care if you want to make this argument.

[Norcyz]

There's a Holy pally and a Prot pally.
The Holy one is healing the Prot one.
The Holy one sees a time when LoH'ing the Prot one would be beneficial.
The Holy pally likely already has Beacon on the tank.
The Holy pally LoH's himself.

Not saying the forbearance thing isn't a nerf. Just saying it's not a big one.

[cellox]

easy fix make LOH give forbearance to the caster and not the target.
No QQ from anyone.