mind flay clipping

[Hhavok]

Thanks Ralphie. I will check it out.

[fabian]

SWD is your 1gcd filler, not SWP. refreshing SWP unnecessarily is pretty much a mana and dps loss.

Except where you can fit 2 MF clips into 1 GCD. This happens around 23.3% haste or 764 haste rating, raid buffed, no BL, no 4pc t10. With 4pc t10, raid buffed, and no BL, this number comes down to 90 haste rating or 2.74%. During BL, it doesn't matter, just MF the 1 GCD left for MB.

[Worshaka]

Personally I believe (with any sort of reasonable haste) to always use MF2 instead of SW and simply delay your next spell slightly. It's complex to prove if it's a DPS increase mathematically and it would go for a few pages so I won't bother. What I will say is that I have done a lot of dummy testing and any time I attempted to utilise SW I saw a signficant DPS loss.

Admitadly I have 17% haste, so i'm at the top end of the spectrum for current gearing but i'd suggest anyone with a haste rate approaching 15% should utilise MF2 and not be too concerned about delaying MB by what turns out to be less than 0.5 seconds.

[Luffee]

Admitadly I have 17% haste, so i'm at the top end of the spectrum for current gearing but..

But what?.. are you one drugs?
17% and at the top end?

Whatever you are on, gimme some! Must be frakkin' awesome!

[fabian]

But what?.. are you one drugs?
17% and at the top end?

Whatever you are on, gimme some! Must be frakkin' awesome!

He's at the top end for spriests, which is the spec in question

[Worshaka]

More than happy to be challenged that 17% isn't at the top end for shadow priests... I have 17.5% from memory, with 25.5% crit and 2900 base SP with 325 to come from Illustration & Eye of the Broodmother.

Until 3.3, haste wasn't a stat you invested heavily in, so yes it's at the top end for the current itemisation for shadow priests.

[Zelol]

Worshaka!

btw, incase you have not noticed i recon you erm.. the.. signature template is rather old

[Priestwads]

Personally I believe (with any sort of reasonable haste) to always use MF2 instead of SW and simply delay your next spell slightly. It's complex to prove if it's a DPS increase mathematically and it would go for a few pages so I won't bother. What I will say is that I have done a lot of dummy testing and any time I attempted to utilise SW I saw a signficant DPS loss.

I have to totally agree on this. In my current gear im sitting on 15.13% haste which in raids means that MF2 is always used when there is nothing needing renewed and still time until MB. I really only ever use SW if I have to run around since I never see it as helping out dps/damage wise. Unlike in BC when it was a dps boost to SW, I only see it hindering mine after wotlk

Also I saw earlier someone recommending the addon MFClip. I would say that this is a very nice addon for people unsure of when to start recasting dots and when MF ticks occur. It is all laid out in a small area with countdown bars for you to see easily when you will need to refresh.

[Kalakukko]

Mind Flay clipping is exactly like sarcasm on the internet. One of the highest forms on art known to man.

[Worshaka]

Worshaka!

btw, incase you have not noticed i recon you erm.. the.. signature template is rather old

Yeah its quite awful, I never got round to finding something I liked.... i'm happy to hear suggestions however.

[jonish]

ive been doing a lot of research on spriest dps and this may be a no brainer but i need a definition of 'clipping' i really dont want to assume it means what i assume it means, which my research indicates may be wrong.

a scenario of mf clipping would be appreciated too. thanks.

mind flay does 3 ticks of damage in its duration.

While most assume as a channeled spell that all 3 come in exact incriments which is untrue. People think with mind flay that it is a 3 second channel and that each tick comes after 1 second of cast time. Meaning that as a 3 second channel the first tick comes at 2 seconds the second comes at 1 second and the third comes right as the spell end. While the 3rd does come as the spell ends the first and second come very close together creating a much larger gap between the second and third ticks of the channel.

0-------------1-----2------------3

since channel casting shows up as an emptying bar im vaguely illustrating how mind flay channels
the 0 indicates the end of the cast and the final tick
the 1 and 2 indicate the first tick(2) and the second tick(1)
the 3 indicates the start point of the channeling

What people refer too when they are talking about clipping is watching a timer or cast bar and cancelling the mind flay after the second tick has gone off by starting a new cast. For instance your Mind blast timer is up or one of your dots is about to fall off.

If you can consistently get it right then it can be a pretty significant boost to your dps over a fight.

[Hhavok]

Mind Flay clipping is exactly like sarcasm on the internet. One of the highest forms on art known to man.

It kind of feels like a golf swing to me. Every time I try to improve on it, or grab another addon, I get worse for a little while before I get better.

[Worshaka]

mind flay does 3 ticks of damage in its duration.

While most assume as a channeled spell that all 3 come in exact incriments which is untrue. People think with mind flay that it is a 3 second channel and that each tick comes after 1 second of cast time. Meaning that as a 3 second channel the first tick comes at 2 seconds the second comes at 1 second and the third comes right as the spell end. While the 3rd does come as the spell ends the first and second come very close together creating a much larger gap between the second and third ticks of the channel.

0-------------1-----2------------3

since channel casting shows up as an emptying bar im vaguely illustrating how mind flay channels
the 0 indicates the end of the cast and the final tick
the 1 and 2 indicate the first tick(2) and the second tick(1)
the 3 indicates the start point of the channeling

What people refer too when they are talking about clipping is watching a timer or cast bar and cancelling the mind flay after the second tick has gone off by starting a new cast. For instance your Mind blast timer is up or one of your dots is about to fall off.

If you can consistently get it right then it can be a pretty significant boost to your dps over a fight.

This is the first I've heard of this... can you please explain in detail how the MF channel decides when ticks occur? Ie. with 0 haste at exactly what moments to ticks 1 & 2 occur and when haste is factored in how this affects when the ticks occur.

[jonish]

This is the first I've heard of this... can you please explain in detail how the MF channel decides when ticks occur? Ie. with 0 haste at exactly what moments to ticks 1 & 2 occur and when haste is factored in how this affects when the ticks occur.

i wont even pretend to know the math of it or how haste affects it i have just read this and if you actually watch your mind flay casts it shows it. Even in programs like MFClip the first and second tick are very close together why the third is further apart. The ticks never come in 1 second incriments.

If someone knows the math that would be great but unfortunately I won't even pretend to know it. The info i gave was just a rough example i do not know the exact timing , but info i have read previously and confirmed through 5 years of personal testing.

[Livin!]

To se math behind MF clipping and lots of other DPS math I suggest www.shadowpriest.com. (Good for every PvEing Shadow lover)

Theres some gear DPS math aswell that I recomend at that forum.

[ksdfalevfhilvilug]

This is the first I've heard of this... can you please explain in detail how the MF channel decides when ticks occur? Ie. with 0 haste at exactly what moments to ticks 1 & 2 occur and when haste is factored in how this affects when the ticks occur.

I don't know why, but this was definitely the case when I played shadow pre-3.0. I clipped almost every mind flay. My guild would not let me play any other spec because my regen was "too good". Once replenishment made it so anyone could return the same amount of mana as me, I went holy. It may have gotten changed with 3.0 or any patch after that. I haven't really tested it. I tested it on Dr. Boom back in the day though and it did tick at strange intervals, and it was an increase to clip it. Then again, it was also an increase to keep SW on cooldown. I just set up a different field in parrot to only show mind flay damage and clipped it at the second one. I'm not sure how haste affects it but I did have a healthy amount back then. Unfortunately all I can add to the discussion is to confirm that it used to be that way.

[Worshaka]

i wont even pretend to know the math of it or how haste affects it i have just read this and if you actually watch your mind flay casts it shows it. Even in programs like MFClip the first and second tick are very close together why the third is further apart. The ticks never come in 1 second incriments.

If someone knows the math that would be great but unfortunately I won't even pretend to know it. The info i gave was just a rough example i do not know the exact timing , but info i have read previously and confirmed through 5 years of personal testing.

Im a bit skeptical this is the case consdiering I've never ever read this before ever and i've been playing for quite some time. I'm not sure SCT is definitive proof either, so I'd appreciate someone linking some information on this, i've yet to find any.

[Hoddie]

I imagine this is just lag and it's either his client or the server 'catching up' with what's happened. For instance, server recognises MF was cast but due to lag the results aren't received by the client until after the first tick has happened. Client eventually gets the information and immediately displays first tick. The second and third ticks are displayed 'on time' because the server already reported when they should hit (pending any reported changes, ie death).

You sometimes see similar results when other people lag, for example when you see someone run straight off a cliff, only for them to be stood next to you a moment later. I take this to mean that the server hadn't received any information to the contrary so had assumed their direction hadn't changed, reporting the results to everyone else only to then receive information that they actually stopped just short of jumping. This is then reported to everyone and the cliff jump suddenly didn't happen.

I'd expect the combat log timestamps to show the ticks 1 second apart however, at least on someone else's log if not your own (I don't know if timestamps are based on when server acted on something or when your client acts on it).

Or maybe I just made it all up

[Worshaka]

That seems like a more reasonable explanation of what occurs...

[G l o w y r m]

That seems like a more reasonable explanation of what occurs...

Aww, Hoddie beat me to it. I was going to say that pretty much word for word, lol.
I'm leaning towards that explanation until I see more information.

Personally I believe (with any sort of reasonable haste) to always use MF2 instead of SW and simply delay your next spell slightly. It's complex to prove if it's a DPS increase mathematically and it would go for a few pages so I won't bother. What I will say is that I have done a lot of dummy testing and any time I attempted to utilize SW I saw a significant DPS loss.

Admitadly I have 17% haste, so i'm at the top end of the spectrum for current gearing but i'd suggest anyone with a haste rate approaching 15% should utilise MF2 and not be too concerned about delaying MB by what turns out to be less than 0.5 seconds.

Yes I agree with this. As long as you aren't delaying MB by a whole second+ or something, being able to squeeze 2 MF ticks in because of a healthy dose of haste is better than SW. I wasn't really thinking about haste in my post and was just listing the basic clipping/priority idea and the basic options you have when it's almost time to MB/DP/VT (Which I think are...clip MF, SW. or do nothing).

But...this means that there IS a point while gearing (low haste) that 2 ticks could possibly delay MB by too much in some/many situations and that SW is better at that point, right? What I mean is, if you KNOW that you can't get 2MF off, but you have enough time for a GCD, then SW should be a good choice, at least on paper it seems like it, no?

Another question, if you're REALLY close to having to MB/DP/VT (<1 sec left), is doing nothing a valid option, as to not have the GCD eat into them by a second or more? I've always thought it was.