Ghostcrawler: Warlock DPS is fine, l2p

[The_Flying_Dog]

in ToC it's not becouse Warlocks are UP but Mages OP so

[Syro]

A warlock that learns to use Demonic Circle accordingly to what happens in the fight will NEVER have survivability problems.

So yea ... l2p.

[Deleted]

1. Mage
2. Warlock

OMG BUFF WARLOCK

[Sellest]

I like GC more and more with each post (and I am not sacrastic here)
Maybe you will like him also when you realize that he is doing it right (along with all team) and that he is not responsible for every change, he just speak with community about it.

[vesseblah]

For the hundredth time, we are not talking about your mediocre guild on your podunk server. We are talking about the trends documented both in logs, simcraft and by anecdotal evidence by high end raiding guilds.

The trend documented in logs like Wow-meter and World of Logs is that when you take the best of the best in every class, warlocks are barely scratching the top 100 and are consistently in the lower half of DPS rankings.

There's your problem right here. Not just the person I quoted, but the collective "you" reading meters.

GC has said many times (especially in PvP threads) that they do not balance the game for the top end players. They are most likely balancing the game at some arbitrary point, for argument's sake at "better than 80% of the players, worse than 19%" just slightly above average on a bell curve that includes all levels of content from normal mode 5-mans to 25-man hardmode raiding and arena. No metering sites show this kind of data. Numbers in metering sites are the outliers in their data of x million players, and not really interesting for game balance's sake as long as the margin of difference is within some certain limits at the top end.

This kind of balancing is very obvious for classes like moonkins, shadowpriests and ele/enha shamans who excel at lower tier of content and are falling back in the top end hardmodes.

[nocturnus]

Falconblade, could you be so kind to post one of your own WoL meters so we can see what 'fine' is according to you?

This counts for every other Warlock spamming this thread with gorilla-style chest-beating.

We're fine? I might believe you, but show us, don't be afraid.

[Jayded1]

gc is an idiot... next?

How is being 100% right make one an idiot? if you cant pull big numbers as a lock then you are epic fail.

[rsabido]

When you're doing all that AoE, how much less would it be without the unholy DK putting the ebon plaguebringer on all the mobs you're aoe'ing? And before you say "Locks and Boomkins can do that" ask yourself how much dps you'd lose trying to keep CoE up on an entire AoE pull.

Very true and no doubt id bring 5 dks to that fight if i could as a raid leader, but id bring a demo warlock as well.

My point was not locks are better than dks in that fight. It clearly is not a valid point.

My point is, each class has its singularities, and, when it comes to buffing spell power in numbers, increasing all spell dmg (dks dmg too) and healing, we have a spot in that fight.

The worst encounter imo for warlocks is hero anub and even in that encounter we have a role to play. Id love to be a one button smasher again and top the meters, but i don´t think its fair to say warlocks are bad dps or they need buff. If people are sitting, they need to improve in gear and/or skill. Do their part.

as a side note, I was reading the whole topic and that lock stacking crit and spirit over haste is pitiful.

[Herecius]

I play with some fantastic locks, and I can happily say their DPS is fine. What seems a lot MORE likely is that warlocks simply have a different sort of learning curve:

It's very easy to be a terrible warlock. For that matter, it's easy to be a terrible ANYTHING.
With some work, you can be a good warlock.
It's tough to be a really good warlock, but you can do it with practice.
It's VERY DIFFICULT (apparently) to be a FANTASTIC warlock, but it is possible.

TL;DR, practice more, obviously some locks are doing fine, which means they're just playing better than you if you think warlocks are broken. Is threat a problem? Sure it is, but Blizz has acknowledged that they're going to be trying to fix that. So GG.

[Goatonlb]

I'm not going to say that some of you are right and others wrong, as it's very hard to separate the trolls from the normal posters.

But I do have a request though:
Could all the people saying Warlocks are fine provide us wit a series of Combatlogs (either WoL or WMO). This way your replies would be more constructive as a whole and we could analyze where and why you're right or wrong.

It's not a big secret that many people think their class if fine, just because the other classes are underperforming: e.g. "I do 6k dps in raids, Warlocks are imba"

Thanks

As GC said, it's a difference in how good you/your raid team is. Why the fuck anyone that's not doing hardmodes, in full T9, pushing server/region/world firsts is complaining is beyond me. He's saying if you're not doing any of the above, then yes, it's probably an L2P issue if you're not topping the meters. There are plenty of locks that do fine, it just probably means their guilds aren't cutting edge.

If you aren't doing 8000 dps on Northrend Beasts (and very few of you are, especially heroic) then I don't know how relevant it is that the best hunter in the world does more damage on that fight than the best warlock in the world.

Now if we want to talk about how locks don't scale as well as mages, which def. is a concern going into T10 and higher ilvl gear, that's a discussion. The problem is the MASS QQ that comes from players who really have no right complaining.

[Jayded1]

I'm not going to say that some of you are right and others wrong, as it's very hard to separate the trolls from the normal posters.

But I do have a request though:
Could all the people saying Warlocks are fine provide us wit a series of Combatlogs (either WoL or WMO). This way your replies would be more constructive as a whole and we could analyze where and why you're right or wrong.

It's not a big secret that many people think their class if fine, just because the other classes are underperforming: e.g. "I do 6k dps in raids, Warlocks are imba"

Thanks

Just go to world of Logs and look for yourself. Just like GC says the proof is sitting right there. There are locks averaging 8k dps without gimicks. I only get around 6k-6.5k but that is as Demonology. I just don't find any problems with being a lock.

[Deleted]

Falconblade, could you be so kind to post one of your own WoL meters so we can see what 'fine' is according to you?

This counts for every other Warlock spamming this thread with gorilla-style chest-beating.

We're fine? I might believe you, but show us, don't be afraid.

<3 gorilla-style chest-beating oh man im not gonn forget that word any time soon

anyway
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/93...kings/players/

contains most of the fights. really not gonn link all encounters seperately

[Lilixer]

I wonder how many people here that are saying "L2p locks" have actually PLAYED a warlock.

I raid Affliction and Demo personally.

I'm still pulling 5-7k fight dependant as Affliction. However, in comparision to other pure dps, I just can't keep up, it's scaling issues.

It does need to be fixed. And it's slightly getting there in 3.3, but its not where it should be. A pure DPS class should never be behind Hybrids of equal gear. Ever. That's the point of Hybrids....TO FILL IN WHEN NEEDED. Not to top the meters because their class is insanely OP when it comes to scaling *kitty druids for example*

[Screwtape]

Thread is about the state of warlock dps in 3.3. It's about what ghostcrawler was talking about, which was warlock dps in 3.3. Look at the damn thread title if you're still confused. Re: Ghostcrawler: Warlock DPS is fine, l2p

And if you read his post and don't realize he's talking about 3.3 you're just too damn stupid to matter.

At this point I could assume that you really did think I was quoting GC and are just trying to recover from that. That, or you have a very odd sense of what should be allowed to be discussed, seeing as you haven't raged at the interesting but extraneous discussion of survivability, escape mechanics and aggro drops.

The poster I was referring to made no mention of 3.3 or the PTR so maybe you should rage at him too.
-------
You have to remember that, at least according to simcraft, affliction in it's current (3.2) state does not lag terribly behind destruction. It's just that the mechanics of whole tiers of content put affliction at a pretty big disadvantage. Take a look at Shadow Priests rankings (although I'm sure GC would have you believe they are doing swell) and you get an idea of what affliction dps might be like.

I'm hearing mixed reports from the PTR, and there might be a few fights where affliction shines, but the videos of more than half the fights look very unfriendly to affliction. Sure you could duel spec, but the lackluster performance of destro isn't much better and certainly won't approach the instants of the other ranged pures or the all in one single/multi target attacks of the melee. Thus, as we have no heal spec to switch to, we may continue to see one lock brought for DP and the rest sat.

[Yranigami]

Maybe Blizzard has to change WoW in 1 single class game so ppl couldn't cry about "this class do more dmg then mine"

You have to realize classes work different so they do different dps... It's acceptable when dps classes mixed in the raid can do their job and kill content bosses.

I could understand WOTs if a dps class has the same dps of a tank class or healer class.. but this isn't the case... all wow dps classes have more dps then tank and healer classes so they are doing their job.

As a palyer I choose to play a class becuase I like its skills and playstile, so i dont worry about other classes because I enjoy mine....

If a player choose a class thinking "i wanna be the top dps class"...let me say.... BIG FAIL (maybe u can top the dps chart but really can't enjoy your play time)

[rsabido]

No affliction is nothing more but improved shadowbolt.
In 3.2, you should be playing destruction or demo. Do you like affliction, go pvp or wait for 3.3. Seems affliction will be the main dps spec.

[Goatonlb]

I wonder how many people here that are saying "L2p locks" have actually PLAYED a warlock.

I raid Affliction and Demo personally.

I'm still pulling 5-7k fight dependant as Affliction. However, in comparision to other pure dps, I just can't keep up, it's scaling issues.

It does need to be fixed. And it's slightly getting there in 3.3, but its not where it should be. A pure DPS class should never be behind Hybrids of equal gear. Ever. That's the point of Hybrids....TO FILL IN WHEN NEEDED. Not to top the meters because their class is insanely OP when it comes to scaling *kitty druids for example*

2 points.

1st, GC even gave you a starting point, and you are UNDER IT. If you aren't doing 8k dps, you're either undergeared, or not performing, then you say you do 5-7k but it must be scaling/mechanics why you can't keep up?

2nd, stop thinking hybrids are there to fill in. They've said before they intended on making hybrids fully capable of doing good damage. 5% isn't a rediculous number, and that's in a perfect world. Woops, you got a snobold and the hybrid didn't, he beat me, my class must be broken. ???


The scaling issues you bring up however, are legit. Even if warlocks are capable of doing fine now, the difference between classes that scale better will only continue to get worse going into 3.3.

[Lilixer]

No affliction is nothing more but improved shadowbolt.
In 3.2, you should be playing destruction or demo. Do you like affliction, go pvp or wait for 3.3. Seems affliction will be the main dps spec.

Wrong, a very well played Affliction warlock can still pump out some pretty nasty damage in a raid. I can't back up my claims with any world of logs...but remind me to sometime next week.

I was a natural at affliction because I played a Shadow Priest for 3 years. Same mechanic, cross doting is incredible when done right. Sure you dont get a haunt on the off targets (e.g snowbolds...mistress, etc) but you still get a full round of dots up and a shadow bolt for your shadow mastery. Whilst managing to keep your dots and haunts up on the boss.

I bet you've never touched a warlock.

[Lilixer]

2 points.

1st, GC even gave you a starting point, and you are UNDER IT. If you aren't doing 8k dps, you're either undergeared, or not performing, then you say you do 5-7k but it must be scaling/mechanics why you can't keep up?

2nd, stop thinking hybrids are there to fill in. They've said before they intended on making hybrids fully capable of doing good damage. 5% isn't a rediculous number, and that's in a perfect world. Woops, you got a snobold and the hybrid didn't, he beat me, my class must be broken. ???


The scaling issues you bring up however, are legit. Even if warlocks are capable of doing fine now, the difference between classes that scale better will only continue to get worse going into 3.3.

I spose i could've explained hybrids better, but I dont think they should be beating Pure dps classes. I have no issues with them pumping out good dps, just, in a stand alone, equal geared fight. They shouldn't be beating a pure dps.

However, 8k, sure. But you'll need to play a perfect game. That's "very low latency" and everything running really smoothly, No-one can play a perfect game that well.

[Petita]

Warlock DPS is fine!

Don't blame others for things you could improve yourself! Please check some of these things first:

1. latency (more than 150 is pretty bad...)
2. fps (less than 40 in a raid is pretty bad)
3. gear (check your average itemlevel, avoid overcapping, don't take useless stats)
4. skill rotation in turret and movement situations, avoid clipping, if it makes no sense...
5. talents
6. glyphs