Ghostcrawler: Warlock DPS is fine, l2p

[Balance]

Oh, my god.

I went to lunch, gg me.

If only 50% of the people that posted would read the thread before doing so, this thread would be...well, probably half as long 0.o

I can't even begin to link all the people in here that keep exclaiming the same shit over and over again, which has already been answered or discussed.

Balance, I hope you're first attempt is all that's needed to end this madness.

I do too but im going to lunch now. Be back later.

[Vromrig]

This is getting way to boring, if only your parents would have paid attention to you so you didnt have to turn the webz for recognition. Anyways, yes when the come to damage/dps numbers i like to look at the numbers and yes i allways thought that the amount of damage you did to a boss had something to do with how fast he was going down. If you havent managed to do hm anub yet really you should get the person leading your raids to quit if he has competent raiders, if he dont have competent raiders then stop using them as examples.

If the primary cause of damage by the person on the top is fan of knives, all that damage ain't being done to the boss.

You learn these fundamental basics on how encounters work and then lecture me on how I raid, thanks.

Speaking of people who have utterly eviscerated any shred of credibility they had.

[zuxia]

How do you think we should gear? I have few people I can talk to with a rather large pool of spare gear and we can test it out.

Its not one set fits all fights...take for instance jax hardmode...4pc t9 bonus is crap since most of the fight you will be on adds, portals, volcano...ect..yes on the fight you want about 600 haste..but crit with sp will suit you better for this fight than haste will. I would have to go through the entire list of gear and make one for each fight. BUT in essence you have to take in the mechanics of the fights and adjust your gear accordingly..twins haste is more valued than crit but one should not really pursue haste above 600 without buffs of course. The point is when you do alot of target swapping especially when the mobs die quickly haste does not help as much as crit. I know what simcraft says...it is wrong.

[destrolock]

If you want to keep complaining..and an be elitist go to elitistjerks.com Alot of people haven't done TOC hardmodes...but then again..I want to ask if you stacked over 600 range of haste if you do you fail...cause you put to much into haste where the mechanics of TOC favor crit....yes please quote me simcraft where it shows haste is more valuable...valuable yes..but it requires more of it in a short time of dps to equal the damage of a crit...this is where many people make the mistake of reading simcraft logs.

He didn't need to be mean about it, but he's right. If you're not doing hardmodes and don't have good gear, then this warlock problem doesn't have an effect on you at the moment. If you want more dps you can just go raid and get upgrades. Scaling issues aren't holding you back from competing on the same level with other classes yet.

[watno]

This isn't about terrible 'locks, this is about them being bottom of the barrel when stacked against other pures at a high level.
Right now they are. In 3.3 destro still will be, maybe affliction will shine on patchwerk style fights; I doubt there are too many of those in ICC.
I've been top dps in my guild throughout content in tbc, as demo no less until 4 piece T6, throughout Naxx as aff, throughout Ulduar as destro. I barely scratch top 5 in ToGC, this isn't because I've somehow gotten worse at the class; It's because of shitty scaling.

And to those who slate Simcraft and the veritable assortment of spreadsheets out there, these tools are overlapping with one another on almost all cases in terms off stat valueing, they can't all be wrong.

[Goatonlb]

Its not one set fits all fights...take for instance jax hardmode...4pc t9 bonus is crap since most of the fight you will be on adds, portals, volcano...ect..yes on the fight you want about 600 haste..but crit with sp will suit you better for this fight than haste will. I would have to go through the entire list of gear and make one for each fight. BUT in essence you have to take in the mechanics of the fights and adjust your gear accordingly..twins haste is more valued than crit but one should not really pursue haste above 600 without buffs of course. The point is when you do alot of target swapping especially when the mobs die quickly haste does not help as much as crit. I know what simcraft says...it is wrong.

Wouldn't this same idea apply to all classes/casters? It's not like mages are already swapping 5 pieces of gear on a per fight basis to be doing more damage than warlocks. They do it on every fight, in the same gear.

[gherkin]

Wouldn't this same idea apply to all classes/casters? It's not like mages are already swapping 5 pieces of gear on a per fight basis to be doing more damage than warlocks. They do it on every fight, in the same gear.

Mage mechanics support multi-target switches, as the Arcane Blast buff carries over if you don't use it. Warlocks do not.

[roflolwhatfuckpwnedlolimo]

Its not one set fits all fights...take for instance jax hardmode...4pc t9 bonus is crap since most of the fight you will be on adds, portals, volcano...ect..yes on the fight you want about 600 haste..but crit with sp will suit you better for this fight than haste will. I would have to go through the entire list of gear and make one for each fight. BUT in essence you have to take in the mechanics of the fights and adjust your gear accordingly..twins haste is more valued than crit but one should not really pursue haste above 600 without buffs of course. The point is when you do alot of target swapping especially when the mobs die quickly haste does not help as much as crit. I know what simcraft says...it is wrong.

yes you should persue haste over 600 its still better then crit for close to all fights if not all, if would love to see some math, or at least your resoning, for not persuing haste over 600

[Bakis]

Its not one set fits all fights...take for instance jax hardmode...4pc t9 bonus is crap since most of the fight you will be on adds, portals, volcano...ect..yes on the fight you want about 600 haste..but crit with sp will suit you better for this fight than haste will. I would have to go through the entire list of gear and make one for each fight. BUT in essence you have to take in the mechanics of the fights and adjust your gear accordingly..twins haste is more valued than crit but one should not really pursue haste above 600 without buffs of course. The point is when you do alot of target swapping especially when the mobs die quickly haste does not help as much as crit. I know what simcraft says...it is wrong.

Are you for real or just weird?
Fear not tho, you're yet another done-no-hardmodes-run-around-in-pvp-items-badgeitems-15% hit person that truly know how to gear and simply all other warlocks are doing it wrong.
Scaling problems is a myth!

[zuxia]

LOL, say what? What you are saying is that warlocks dont have scaling issues. We benefit from crit/haste like everyone else correct?
Gearing wrong? yes lets all ignore tierbonuses, they suck!..
I guess you know better than all the warlocks in the topguilds or the ones in hardmode raiding guilds, after all they all gear the same and it cant be scaling issues which only leaves the conclusion that they all suck and simply dont know how to gear..

If its you that is, the Zuxia warlock on the US armory, then you sure know how to gear yourself considering you run around with 15% hit as horde *clap*

Already proved the math that most of the time with sp versus hit you actually will do more damage/dps...or did you forget. As far as my hit...I haven't been on this week to change a couple of gems, oh and you do realize im suppression..so actually (since most of the time..no spriest, or boomkin) I have 18%hit right...you did look at that I am sure before you want to flame and look like an idiot...RIGHT?

[destrolock]

Your right with the % but you miss the point of the recent pages in this thread.
There are two camps

one one saying warlocks are fine <-- those havent done hardmodes yet claim hardmode locks who bring up issues dont know shit *lal*
one saying they got serious issues <-- have done all kinds of gearraiding and know all sides of the coins.

This thread is about the flaws of endgame raiding (read hardmodes) and yes then some lowend raider in normalmode only has an opinion that doesnt count. Who the hell wanne hear the opinion of someone guessing his way forward

If this was a thread about normalmode raiding, ofc his opinion would matter.
It isn't..

TRUE TRUE TRUE
But not only that, the scaling is only going to get worse as the gear gets better.

[davesurfer]

hes right that lock are under every other pure dps class and 2 hybrids, have the highest threat generation, have no aggro reset (soulshatter is bad), no "oh shit" buttons like mages (blink / iceblock / mirror -3 lol)

Try Boom. There is no aggro reset (not even soul shatter)

[Goatonlb]

yes you should persue haste over 600 its still better then crit for close to all fights if not all, if would love to see some math, or at least your resoning, for not persuing haste over 600

Haste will never be useless but when you start getting over 600 haste, you'll notice that your cast time when having bloodlust/heroism and backdraft active will go below the GCD and therefore not provide any benefit during that time. Common opinion seems to be to start focusing more on spdmg and crit when you are around 550-600 haste. But it's not like haste would be totally wasted like it is with hit for example.

[Slotter]

I didn't have time to read all of this, but I personally have a gear score over 5300, and am in one of the top guilds in the US. That said, I personally do not currently see anything wrong with Destro DPS and I am glad to see Affliction getting a much needed buff in 3.3. I play pugs all the time with other locks in them and am constantly amazed at how bad some people are at the class.

The class is fine if you know what the hell you are doing. Most people do not and want this class to be easy and want huge numbers. They don't understand why their dps isn't where it should be. Everyone got so used to the SB Spam in BC that now that it requires the proper use of CD's and not clipping, people freak out and QQ asking wtf, locks must be broke. That isn't true, more than likely it is YOU that is broke. Furthermore, the people who are QQ'ing are using ToC as the current bar to measure DPS which is a joke. There is a gimmick to just about every fight and most every fight is weighted toward melee/cleave.

I pulled 7400dps on Koralan the other day and no one was even close to that. It was a pug and there was another lock in there with a slightly lower gear score and he was at 5900 dps. I don't mean to suck my own c*ck, but his dps sucked because he sucked, not the class.

GC is right and all the people complaining in my opinion are people who need to L2P. If he buffs us more, the people who do know how to play, will destroy everyone.

[Davinfelth]

boom also sucks at gear scaling =( gonna be hit haste AND crit capped soon (soft caps of course)

[Bakis]

Already proved the math that most of the time with sp versus hit you actually will do more damage/dps...or did you forget. As far as my hit...I haven't been on this week to change a couple of gems, oh and you do realize im suppression..so actually (since most of the time..no spriest, or boomkin) I have 18%hit right...you did look at that I am sure before you want to flame and look like an idiot...RIGHT?

No worries mate, your own posts make you looke like an idiot stating warlocks should as only class go around with one gearsetup for each boss.
Nice to see that you across the board simply state that warlocks in general just dont know how to gear and that they gear according to SIMCraft BIS which make them do poor on damage.
Unlike you I dont pay attention to hit math, I'm hitcapped.

Now please, let us hear it one more time "there is no scaling problem, warlocks just dont know how to gear" from you. PLZZZZZZZZ

[Screwtape]

This isn't about terrible 'locks, this is about them being bottom of the barrel when stacked against other pures at a high level.
Right now they are. In 3.3 destro still will be, maybe affliction will shine on patchwerk style fights; I doubt there are too many of those in ICC.
I've been top dps in my guild throughout content in tbc, as demo no less until 4 piece T6, throughout Naxx as aff, throughout Ulduar as destro. I barely scratch top 5 in ToGC, this isn't because I've somehow gotten worse at the class; It's because of shitty scaling.

And to those who slate Simcraft and the veritable assortment of spreadsheets out there, these tools are overlapping with one another on almost all cases in terms off stat valueing, they can't all be wrong.

As a wise mathematician once said- there's nothing wrong with the system. It's your interpretation that is lacking.

The simcraft models are usually run with long (usually 5 min fights) in mind. With different lengths of fights, different stats take priority. If you only have time to cast on spell, crit obviously is the best stat. Once you reach enough hast to cast two spell while the other person can only cast one, haste trumps. If you went on longer spell power would come to the forefront. Simcraft isn't wrong. If you told it to run a 3 second fight and on and on it would reach these conclusions.

I find the idea that you would grab up every 245 cloth piece you could find a little fanciful though. I also don't know why it's in this thread. Zuxia, do you really believe this is the root of the problem?

[roflolwhatfuckpwnedlolimo]

Haste will never be useless but when you start getting over 600 haste, you'll notice that your cast time when having bloodlust/heroism and backdraft active will go below the GCD and therefore not provide any benefit during that time. Common opinion seems to be to start focusing more on spdmg and crit when you are around 550-600 haste. But it's not like haste would be totally wasted like it is with hit for example.

Simply not true

[taaveti]

Read half of the thread and have to spit this out.
Remember that wow IS an RNG game.
Which means, for 2 classes doing the same average dps at similiar skill and item lvls
e.g. Class A does 7000-9000, depending on RNG
Class B does 7500-8500, again depending on RNG
If you just take the top dps logs, Class A will almost always beat Class B, due to the possibility of doing higher dmg when RNG favors them. And this is without the skill and items lvls involved.

So stop basing your arguments on the small samples with just the top dps.

[zuxia]

Well this is offtopic, but the thread is going to hell in a handbasket so what the hey.
What gear choices are there that you think that simcraft guides so horribly? There are no enchant choices. The only choice in gems after activating meta is +23 sp or +12sp/10haste and I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but it doesn't really matter THAT much in the gran scheme of things.

There are only 3 things a warlock has to look at hit, spell power ( and spirit by extension) and haste. Without even trying, I am at 25% crit with no heroic gear and a moonkin puts me over 30%- well in the realm of quickly devalued worth. If you're not on hit, get more hit. If you're over hit, steal the one with a lot of spirit from the healers. Doesn't take a brainiac to make decent gear decisions. You act like we are spending stat points on a blank abacus. We aren't, we're selecting the gear that drops and often settle for what we can get. And frankly there isn't a whole lot of difference between a lot of them.

Oh dammit, those dang warlocks took 2nd BiS instead of BiS. That's what has them hanging out with the cellar-dwellars shamans and spriests. Someone call the Hardy Boys, mystery solved.

How did you determine BIS -- Simcraft? If you did you BIS changes upon the mechanics of fights and simcraft is hugely flawed and mis-interpeted.