No haste for SW:P?

[Elothie]

We all saw SW:P getting nerfed a build before the release of 3.3 because according to devs sp's were doing too much damage (arguably true) but many posters stated that this was due to the bug where SW:P was not updating the haste/crit effects the player was getting and as a result you could cast it during BL with all haste cd's PI etc. and do incredible damage.In the latest hotfix though they did ''nerf'' Corruption from warlocks that was doing exactly the same thing (it went on live ''bugged'').Don't know about the others but I feel that they should do the same thing to SW:P and just find a way to reduce the damage output (in order to bring the dps down to what it is now) from a different source.Then we could finally scale perfectly(haste-sp is 1-1 atm according to some theorycrafters dunno though if that is perfect scaling).Opinions?

[Neichus]

I don't see any particular reason to do so. If the numbers are working out fine then it seems somewhat pointless to tinker with them. As has been emphasized by Blizzard posters, perfect scaling isn't necessary; just scaling that's good enough so that you make it to the end of each expansion without falling behind.

[Hargrimm]

SW:P haste scaling was nerfed because Blizzard thought we would be doing too much damage, not because of the refresh bug.

[Zeuq]

A problem that one of my warlock friends ran into with the Haste scaling on Corruption is that it was occassionally dropping it because of the Haunt cooldown, and probably combined with out stuff (I don't have a Warlock so I know very little about Affliction priorities). Now, Shadow Priests don't have the same issue since Mind Flay doesn't have a cooldown, but with the added Haste meaning more refreshes on the other DoTs and Mind Flay having the lowest priority, I could see situations where, with some combination of movement, lag, and adds, that it would be more difficult to keep SW:Pain up all the time if it scaled with Haste.

So, as the poster above me said, if you're going to end up with the same numbers, it doesn't need perfect scaling; thus, I think you're ultimately better off having it not scaling with Haste than allowing it to scale and getting a nerf elsewhere because you'd just add more complication to an already complicated priority system, running a risk for more potential damage lost, and not really gaining anything as a result.

[jonish]

SW:P haste scaling was nerfed because Blizzard thought we would be doing too much damage, not because of the refresh bug.

i love how people believe that crap. That is blizzard public rep saying that which everyone with common sense knows is BS.

Just like how warlocks corruption was "bugged" then "Fixed" after it went live when it had been like that on the PTR for MONTHS.

I agree that right now we do not need SWPain to scale but toward the end of ICC that may not be the case. Not scaling correctly with mind flay / mind blast and SWPain may catch up with us by the end of ICC.

The way the fights are with many adds to DoT helps keep the situation of us falling behind due to scaling at a minimum because all these adds running around that we can DoT inflates our numbers drastically compared to single target DPS what everyone else is doing.

[fabian]

i love how people believe that crap. That is blizzard public rep saying that which everyone with common sense knows is BS.

Just like how warlocks corruption was "bugged" then "Fixed" after it went live when it had been like that on the PTR for MONTHS.

I agree that right now we do not need SWPain to scale but toward the end of ICC that may not be the case. Not scaling correctly with mind flay / mind blast and SWPain may catch up with us by the end of ICC.

The way the fights are with many adds to DoT helps keep the situation of us falling behind due to scaling at a minimum because all these adds running around that we can DoT inflates our numbers drastically compared to single target DPS what everyone else is doing.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Anyone with common sense will know that Blizz has their own test(dynamic) in which they balance classes by instead of what players do(patchwerk). Now, we'll never see the parses they used but that does not mean you can yell out "BULL SHIT!!! IT WAS ALL BECAUSE OF REFRESH BUG!!!!" when you have no proof. It just makes you look like an idiot.

If they feel SW:P needs to scale with haste, we'll receive it with the same mechanics as the current(post-fix) corruption does, which means we won't be able to abuse it. Which means PP value of haste will probably jump, maybe to the point it will be above 1.1 which will mean Reckless Ametrine will be equal to runed cardinal ruby. If the PP value gets to 1.15, that means Quick Kings Amber will be equal to runed and reckless will be better.

[Hargrimm]

i love how people believe that crap. That is blizzard public rep saying that which everyone with common sense knows is BS.

Just like how warlocks corruption was "bugged" then "Fixed" after it went live when it had been like that on the PTR for MONTHS.

I agree that right now we do not need SWPain to scale but toward the end of ICC that may not be the case. Not scaling correctly with mind flay / mind blast and SWPain may catch up with us by the end of ICC.

Uh, what? What's your argument, exactly? That Blizzard took haste away from SW:P because they couldn't fix it? They just did with Corruption, that doesn't make any sense.

[Kelesti]

Uh, what? What's your argument, exactly? That Blizzard took haste away from SW:P because they couldn't fix it? They just did with Corruption, that doesn't make any sense.

Personally, I think it went like this.

"Oh guys, hey, uhh, something's up. Shadow is doing REAL damage now, and we can't get that Shadow Word: Pain refresh mechanic to work properly, still!"
"Shadow? Shadow, shadow... Not ringing any bells here"
"The Priest damage tree."
"Priests DPS? I though-- oh. Well, if we can't get it to work right, just take out the haste scaling, and say it's because their DPS is too high."
---2 Weeks later---
"Hey, boss, remember that bug we had with the Shadow Priest refresh thing?"
"Uhh, sorta?"
"It's back. With Affliction Warlocks."
"Uh-oh. I want the entire team working on fixing this, we can't have pure DPS classes with bugs! We need to fix this mechanic!"
"What about bringing it back to Shadow, after we get it fixed?"
<Evil glares>
<Gulp> "Never mind. Forget I said that."


And that's how it happened.

[jonish]

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Anyone with common sense will know that Blizz has their own test(dynamic) in which they balance classes by instead of what players do(patchwerk). Now, we'll never see the parses they used but that does not mean you can yell out "BULL SHIT!!! IT WAS ALL BECAUSE OF REFRESH BUG!!!!" when you have no proof. It just makes you look like an idiot.

blindly agreeing with the game designers who are known to lie in almost every single patch is moronic which is what you are advocating.

they called haste stacking a "bug" it isnt a bug when they knew about it for the entirety of 3.3 being on the test realm. It isnt a bug when they admit it is there , say it is fine , and then put it onto live(talking about corruption here) then remove it 4 days later.

blizzard may have tested it and ignored it , i dont know. Maybe they are doing what they did to us in kharazhan. we look fine on dps now or even to an extent overpowered but then we continually fall lower and lower on meters because of scaling, but since we look fine now , and there is forum QQ about it , NERF. that is exactly what happened to us in BC during kharazan and these changes NOW are just starting to fix that problem 2? years later.

with 3 of our 5 normal rotational spells not scaling as they should we will have problems downt he road. How long it will take for that problem to become large enough for it to concern blizzard will remain to be seen. Hopefully this change will keep us high enough to get into Cata without much issue, but that remains to be seen.

[fabian]

blindly agreeing with the game designers who are known to lie in almost every single patch is moronic which is what you are advocating.

they called haste stacking a "bug" it isnt a bug when they knew about it for the entirety of 3.3 being on the test realm. It isnt a bug when they admit it is there , say it is fine , and then put it onto live(talking about corruption here) then remove it 4 days later.

blizzard may have tested it and ignored it , i dont know. Maybe they are doing what they did to us in kharazhan. we look fine on dps now or even to an extent overpowered but then we continually fall lower and lower on meters because of scaling, but since we look fine now , and there is forum QQ about it , NERF. that is exactly what happened to us in BC during kharazan and these changes NOW are just starting to fix that problem 2? years later.

with 3 of our 5 normal rotational spells not scaling as they should we will have problems downt he road. How long it will take for that problem to become large enough for it to concern blizzard will remain to be seen. Hopefully this change will keep us high enough to get into Cata without much issue, but that remains to be seen.

Seriously, what part of my post said I agree with Blizz or said to blindly follow Blizz? I've noticed that because someone does not agree with you on an issue, you can not accept the fact that their ideas are valid. If you actually comprehended any part of my post, you'd have noticed that I tried to keep it neutral because there is no proof on either side of the argument. Although Blizz has confirmed they balance differently than just straight up patchwerk type fights we do not know the exact mechanics so we still cling to patchwerk style fights.

A good quote has come to mind for your blatant disregard for valid, opposite opinions is: "Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

Although it does not fit perfectly, it is the same idea. One person blind to the other side of the argument because they are entirely convinced they are correct.

[jonish]

Seriously, what part of my post said I agree with Blizz or said to blindly follow Blizz?

this part

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Anyone with common sense will know that Blizz has their own test(dynamic) in which they balance classes by instead of what players do(patchwerk)

you dont have any valid argument you just THINK blizzard did X and came up with Y. i disagree , i gave MY opinion of what i think may or may not have happened. this is what forums are for. this is called arguing. By stating my opinion I am not making anything you say any more or less valid when neither of us actually know what happened, but you are agreeing with what blizzard told you was the reasoning behind the changes and I am pointing out why agreeing with what they said is laughable.

[Worshaka]

Now, Shadow Priests don't have the same issue since Mind Flay doesn't have a cooldown, but with the added Haste meaning more refreshes on the other DoTs and Mind Flay having the lowest priority, I could see situations where, with some combination of movement, lag, and adds, that it would be more difficult to keep SW:Pain up all the time if it scaled with Haste.

Because it would be too hard to priortise MF as a SW:P refresh if it meant it was going to drop off... I mean you MUST cast MB if it's off CD, there is no way to think outside the square.

[fabian]

this part

you dont have any valid argument you just THINK blizzard did X and came up with Y. i disagree , i gave MY opinion of what i think may or may not have happened. this is what forums are for. this is called arguing. By stating my opinion I am not making anything you say any more or less valid when neither of us actually know what happened, but you are agreeing with what blizzard told you was the reasoning behind the changes and I am pointing out why agreeing with what they said is laughable.

SO by disagreeing with you means I agree with Blizz? Or is it that by saying someone with common sense can understand the fact that how Blizz balances dps is different from the player base?

Seriously, the only thing I've done was state a fact that is true and known by those who are not blinded by their own opinions.

You've got valid concerns but can not think past your own opinions. When you suggested to change MB to a 3 sec cast time, you obviously had no comprehension of balance, nor do you now, have any comprehension of the way Blizz balances PvE dps. You're like a conspiracy theorist, if there is no given data as to why something was changed, you right away, say they lied. Just a quick look through some parses, spriest looks far from non-competitive, to the levels of being top dps on multi-dot fights. So keep your concerns for later, when they might be valid enough to look at, because right now, it just makes you look paranoid.

[jonish]

SO by disagreeing with you means I agree with Blizz? Or is it that by saying someone with common sense can understand the fact that how Blizz balances dps is different from the player base?

Seriously, the only thing I've done was state a fact that is true and known by those who are not blinded by their own opinions.

You've got valid concerns but can not think past your own opinions. When you suggested to change MB to a 3 sec cast time, you obviously had no comprehension of balance, nor do you now, have any comprehension of the way Blizz balances PvE dps. You're like a conspiracy theorist, if there is no given data as to why something was changed, you right away, say they lied. Just a quick look through some parses, spriest looks far from non-competitive, to the levels of being top dps on multi-dot fights. So keep your concerns for later, when they might be valid enough to look at, because right now, it just makes you look paranoid.

the content of your posts is what makes it very clear you are totally buying whatever blizzard had to say on the subject , how is this even up for debate ?

i have very large basis of comprehension as you put it as it comes to balance as was proven in the multiple other threads i have posted in. The only people disagreeing with me are you and worshaka , and i disproved any and everything he had to say on the subject. You at least seem to have some sense about you but you just seem to agree at face value with what blizzard said. after 5 years of playing this class and being blatantly lied to about many things regarding our class , having change after change implemented that completely contradicts statements they made weeks or days before they were implemented just further proves the validity of everything I have said.

You can brush it off as paranoid if you like but the facts are on my side , and the word of idiotic forum reps is on yours. MATH doesnt lie.

And as I stated in my other post which you seemed to yet again disregard my comments were completely set in the future timeline of the game. saying i hope the issues that were not addressed with our scaling will not become an issue toward the end of ICC. Hopefully the haste change will hold us in a good position until we get into Cata where everything will change in some way.

[fabian]

the content of your posts is what makes it very clear you are totally buying whatever blizzard had to say on the subject , how is this even up for debate ?

i have very large basis of comprehension as you put it as it comes to balance as was proven in the multiple other threads i have posted in. The only people disagreeing with me are you and worshaka , and i disproved any and everything he had to say on the subject. You at least seem to have some sense about you but you just seem to agree at face value with what blizzard said. after 5 years of playing this class and being blatantly lied to about many things regarding our class , having change after change implemented that completely contradicts statements they made weeks or days before they were implemented just further proves the validity of everything I have said.

You can brush it off as paranoid if you like but the facts are on my side , and the word of idiotic forum reps is on yours. MATH doesnt lie.

When, in regards to evidence, I have not once seen you post a link that supports you. Now, I also have seen very few people actually agree with you. Now that does not mean you do have valid points, just that you often stretch the truth on some things. The thing is, you're fine with our dps at the moment, as with Blizz. You've got concerns about scaling, which is valid because we've never scaled well before and we still are not scaling to the best of our ability.

In actuality, I do not based my assessments on what I believe, but on facts. Based on simcrafts of single target fights and parses of the current ICC fights, I've actually understand why Blizz took haste scaling from SW:P. Our dps is perfect as is, and can only increase as we advance further into ICC. We'll see how our dps once the content is on farm, but as of right now, there is no reason to add haste scaling to SW:P.

The only fact on your side about SW:P haste scaling is that we have never scaled well, and that the mechanics which could inflate SW:P dps greatly could have been a factor. On the other hand, parses showing spriest dps to be close to perfect(relatively speaking), in terms of dps rank, show that right now, we do not need SW:P to scale with haste.

You're right about one thing,

MATH doesnt lie.

And considering I'm more of a man of science than that of religion, I rely on math to prove my point.

[Weena2]

We're fine, no need for SW:P to scale with haste.

[Worshaka]

We're fine, no need for SW:P to scale with haste.

That might be true, however blizzard talk alot about good design and I can't see how letting some dots scale with haste and others not is a good design. VT has double the coeffecient it's supposed to, again not a good design. Let all spells scale appropriately according to the mechanics setup, mucking around with let x do this but y not, is simply bad design.

[jonish]

When, in regards to evidence, I have not once seen you post a link that supports you. Now, I also have seen very few people actually agree with you. Now that does not mean you do have valid points, just that you often stretch the truth on some things. The thing is, you're fine with our dps at the moment, as with Blizz. You've got concerns about scaling, which is valid because we've never scaled well before and we still are not scaling to the best of our ability.

In actuality, I do not based my assessments on what I believe, but on facts. Based on simcrafts of single target fights and parses of the current ICC fights, I've actually understand why Blizz took haste scaling from SW:P. Our dps is perfect as is, and can only increase as we advance further into ICC. We'll see how our dps once the content is on farm, but as of right now, there is no reason to add haste scaling to SW:P.

The only fact on your side about SW:P haste scaling is that we have never scaled well, and that the mechanics which could inflate SW:P dps greatly could have been a factor. On the other hand, parses showing spriest dps to be close to perfect(relatively speaking), in terms of dps rank, show that right now, we do not need SW:P to scale with haste.

You're right about one thing, And considering I'm more of a man of science than that of religion, I rely on math to prove my point.

our position being fine is based on your opinion , not fact. While i will agree that we are much better off now that before 3.3 I still think there is room for improvement. Blizzard has flat out stated that they are fine with Hybrids being capable of surpassing pure dps of equal gear in regards to varying fight mechanics. As the fights in ICC are very beneficial to multi-dot class it is obvious that we are supposed to be very high on the charts if not topping them. While I really do not desire to be #1 dps all the time simply by what class I play I am inclined to say we should be alot closer to #1 on ICC encounters than say #5.

With the pathetic raid utility we bring currently our dps should be considered as the main reasoning behind bringing a shadow priest to a raid. the only two things we as a shadow priest bring to a raid are 3%hit and VE. VE is group only and is replaced by a healing stream totem , judgement of light , imp leader of the pack , etc etc. 3%hit is brought by moonkins. While I will say shadow priests are much much more common than Moonkins , moonkins bring alot of extra utility , along with Brez , innervate , 13% , crit aura , etc.

Personally even with the concerns I have with our scaling wether warranted or not(my opinion they are very much so) We should be very high on the charts because we bring literally the worst raid utility of any dps spec.

Rogues complained about having no raid utility for months and as a result received a massive dps increase to compensate for there lack of utility. I cannot see this as being blizzards vision for us in the future as we are a hybrid class, but then again you can look at DKs whom have 2 specs that do more dps than we do while they also bring better raid utility in either spec(blood for single target dps , and unholy for multi-target).

but back to the main point. I think you are drastically exaggerating the increase putting the normal amount of haste increase back on SWPain would give us. Without the ability to roll the haste procs on it , the increase we will receive from it scaling would be rather minimal. It is infact the worst spell we have in terms of dps output and will continue to be so even with haste scaling. 2-300 more dps to our rotation possibly ? maybe someone could run the numbers on that to confirm but i cannot see it being that extra drastic increase people seem to think it would be.

[fabian]

maybe someone could run the numbers on that to confirm but i cannot see it being that extra drastic increase people seem to think it would be.

Well, every 1% of haste you have, the dps/damage done during the fight of each dot is increased by 1%.

Taken from a random parse:
MF: 445,316 damage; 103 applications
VT: 281,884 damage; 69 applications
DP: 240,357 damage; 72 applications
MB: 165,301 damagel 21 applications
SW:P: 155,657 damage; 61 applications
IDP: 46,247 damage; 9 applications
SF: 37,579 damage
Pillar of Flame: 34,736
Time: 3 min 10 sec
Haste Rating: 603
DPS: 7405
Assuming you do not include heroism/BL, and fully raid buffed in terms of haste...
Final Haste %: 28.03%

Apply that haste % to the damage done by SW:P, and you get 199287 damage.
DPS after adding in the new SW:P damage: 7635
Difference: 230 dps
% difference: 3.11%

So you're right about it, it is only about a 200-300 dps increase/3% increase.

[Worshaka]

Well, every 1% of haste you have, the dps/damage done during the fight of each dot is increased by 1%.

Taken from a random parse:
MF: 445,316 damage; 103 applications
VT: 281,884 damage; 69 applications
DP: 240,357 damage; 72 applications
MB: 165,301 damagel 21 applications
SW:P: 155,657 damage; 61 applications
IDP: 46,247 damage; 9 applications
SF: 37,579 damage
Pillar of Flame: 34,736
Time: 3 min 10 sec
Haste Rating: 603
DPS: 7405
Assuming you do not include heroism/BL, and fully raid buffed in terms of haste...
Final Haste %: 28.03%

Apply that haste % to the damage done by SW:P, and you get 199287 damage.
DPS after adding in the new SW:P damage: 7635
Difference: 230 dps
% difference: 3.11%

So you're right about it, it is only about a 200-300 dps increase/3% increase.

Thats a good simple assessment for single target encounters, however the benefit to multi dot encounters would skew the result not to mention that haste as a stat weight becomes more benefical so you invariably see higher amounts of haste in gear levels.

Given they have doubled VT's coeffecient, losing out on SW:P haste scaling isn't so bad and it allows you an easier time to keep it refreshed on multi targets... im actually having some mana issues with my 30%+ raid buffed haste and once I lose 2pc T9 i'm going to be casting VT extremely often.