Moonkin 3.3 BIS topic

[Deleted]

From my experience I'd favour crit over haste after hitting both soft caps just due to the fact that you will need a hell of a lot more haste to benefit SF then you would crit to benefit wrath. But at the end of the day it's a balance as to what we need hence the class being called balance (see what I did there?) :P

Think about it though , the more crit we get past soft cap will mean less RnG for wrath which will mean higher damage during SE but also put us into LE more often which is where haste comes into play so we can fit in more SF's into our LE CD ... Saying that I think it's a crazy high amount of haste we'd need to fit in 1 extra SF is it not ?

[Mutthear]

Well it won't be much of a difference considering we only want the necklace from Queen Lanathel and maybe the trinket from Sindragosa or the cloak from Valithria. The stats will only slightly go up from those. The Lich King might make a difference but no one knows his drops yet anyway.

My point was, we are not sacrificing crit for haste on a 1:1 base. We do that with crit for spirit or haste for spirit and vice versa. I do agree that crit is still better then haste (I'm a critwhore) but sacrifing 3 haste for 1 crit is pretty bad especcialy since we need around 46 crit rating for 1% crit and we need 33 haste rating for 1% haste (I know it is a bit less for both but this makes it a bit easier to make my point). So we sacrifice the 120 crit rating that you have more then me + 70sp from spirit for 300 haste rating and since 300 haste > 120 crit + 70 sp after soft capping both, I think this way is better for our overall dps gain. Also I'm not suggesting to gem 12sp and 10 haste instead of 12sp and 10 crit in our yellow sockets, this is pure from gear so not really "stacking",

Mutthear

[Fonzey]

Saying that I think it's a crazy high amount of haste we'd need to fit in 1 extra SF is it not ?

Poldara touched on a good point here, Crit provides a linear increase of DPS both before and after the cap where as haste benefits in 'chunks', through lack of a better word to describe it.

Haste will only be worth* stacking (past the softcap) where it allows for an extra starfire during lunar eclipse.

I saw a graph at some point in time which roughly outlined the different levels of haste and the correlation between number of starfires successfully landed during LE - but that was quite some time ago so probably is no longer accurate, but it would be interesting to see for the sake of this debate.

Realistically though, if your moonkin is in the position where by haste, crit and hit are all 'capped', your choices for gear are probably limited anyway - and it's not as if you'll have the luxury of choosing between crit or haste anyway.




*worth meaning a significant DPS increase.

[Deleted]

Well it won't be much of a difference considering we only want the necklace from Queen Lanathel and maybe the trinket from Sindragosa or the cloak from Valithria. The stats will only slightly go up from those. The Lich King might make a difference but no one knows his drops yet anyway.

Sorry, what? Are you calling out to just three items that you want from Icecrown? In the simple list i just made, with all 264 gear (except for the 10 man trinket), there was an amazing increase in stats across the board. Why would you not want to upgrade your gear?

[Deleted]

another point which possibly could be mentioned since the change to eclipse. Crit will still be valuable outside of softcap and LE as we'll need it more to proc SE since there's no aura cancel anymore to keep the SF crit bonus and go straight into SE ? Again you'd be looking at silly amounts for this to be 100% but.. you can stack all the haste you want to but if you don't crit you aint getting your eclipses :P (hmmm is the plural to eclipse , eclipse ? or eclipses?)

[Fonzey]

(hmmm is the plural to eclipse , eclipse ? or eclipses?)

NASA say eclipses, so that'll do for me

[Deleted]

another point which possibly could be mentioned since the change to eclipse. Crit will still be valuable outside of softcap and LE as we'll need it more to proc SE since there's no aura cancel anymore to keep the SF crit bonus and go straight into SE ? Again you'd be looking at silly amounts for this to be 100% but.. you can stack all the haste you want to but if you don't crit you aint getting your eclipses :P (hmmm is the plural to eclipse , eclipse ? or eclipses?)

Repeating things said several times throughout the topic doesn't really contribute to anything, mate..

[Mutthear]

Sorry, what? Are you calling out to just three items that you want from Icecrown? In the simple list i just made, with all 264 gear (except for the 10 man trinket), there was an amazing increase in stats across the board. Why would you not want to upgrade your gear?

4/5 Tier 10
Crafted Legs
Boots from Putricide
Wrist from Deathwhisper
Trinket from Anub ToC25
Trinket from Gunship 10
Weapon from Valithria 10 (so I can switch 120 haste for 100 crit apparently so im changin a bit)
Ring from rep
Ring from Gunship
Cloak from ToC 10m Insanity
Belt from emblems

That is what I want at the moment. This weapon change also makes it possible for me to swap 1 item from crit/hit to crit/haste so I will gain 100 crit rating and loose 50-60 haste and 20 hit rating.

Mutthear

Edit:
That is what I ment with only needing 3-4 items AFTER Putricide, most of the gear is haste/spirit or crit/spirit.

[Deleted]

Repeating things said several times throughout the topic doesn't really contribute to anything, mate..

Making a retarded post when you haven't even read what I said doesn't really contribute to anything, mate...

Like I said "which possibly could be mentioned" means it might of already been mentioned but people seemingly bump over it. Just cause you write your own blog now doesn't give you the right to jump up on a high horse son. If we're discussing which is worth more after the soft cap... then I just thought I'd reiterate a point. God... turning into Qieth the troll (see what I did there?)

[BartolGdH]

Like I said "which possibly could be mentioned" means it might of already been mentioned but people seemingly bump over it.

I'm not trying to take sides here or troll around, but your choice of words is, to be honest, really misleading.

For me, "which possibly could be mentioned" means as much as: "I'm not quite sure if it's worth mentioning (=possibly), but I might do it anyway".

You would have been more precise writing: "which possibly could have been mentioned (before)".

I think there was a mere misunderstanding between Qieth and you here

If I'm wrong, correct me!

(Modified for clarity)

[Deleted]

Poldara touched on a good point here, Crit provides a linear increase of DPS both before and after the cap where as haste benefits in 'chunks', through lack of a better word to describe it.

I'm not sure i agree with that line of reasonning (ie we'd need to test some numbers/simulation runs to do further). Haste does provide linear increases too because you are casting more spells in the same amount of time. At times the benfit is huge (one more SF under lunar for each Eclipse), sometimes it's smaller (1 or 2 more spells over a 5 minute fight), but it's always there. The last SF you cast isn't going to disappear because it doesn't hit while Eclipse is active, it's still cast and haste will allow you to get back to the next Eclipse faster too.

The reason why i'm skeptical is that while under crit cap and over haste cap, haste is only marginally lower than crit. Hitting the crit softcap should make haste better again. (this is muddied a bit by the rotation change from 3.3 but i don't think the values would jump around that much)

[BartolGdH]

You have to take the following into consideration:
(I'm taking for granted that you are fully buffed)


Haste:

Wrath (both Solar/Lunar eclipse or outside any eclipse): if over the soft haste cap, your wrath cast time will collide with your global cooldown, making it impossible for wrath to get any faster (at least under Nature's Grasp).

Starfire (both Solar/Lunar eclipse or outside any eclipse): starfire will - in any case - benefit from haste, but (as has been mentioned) it will need a minimum of 712 haste to get one more starfire into a Lunar Eclipse.


Crit:

Wrath (both Solar/Lunar eclipse or outside any eclipse): if over the soft crit cap, wrath will - in any case - benefit from crit (given you are not at 100% crit buffed anyway, which is virtually impossible).

Starfire (Lunar eclipse): Starfire will not benefit from crit, unless any debuff on the boss or buff on you is missing.
Starfire (outside eclipse): Starfire will still benefit from crit here (again, unless at 100% buffed anyway).



Bottom line:
While the benefits of both crit and haste are comparable while being in an eclipse (Wrath benefits from crit, but not from haste; Starfire benefits from haste, but not from crit), outside an eclipse crit is still valuable for both spells while haste is only for one of them (starfire).

Furthermore, a higher crit rate ensures more eclipse procs, while you can cast as fast as you want, if you don't crit, you won't deal "enough" damage (I think that has as well been mentioned before).

[Fonzey]

At times the benfit is huge (one more SF under lunar for each Eclipse), sometimes it's smaller (1 or 2 more spells over a 5 minute fight), but it's always there.

That is exactly what I mean by non-linear...

[Deleted]

What i meant is that you can't say there's no haste benefit until we fit another SF during lunar.
(maybe you didn't say it yourself and i should have quoted someone else, but that's how i perceived the argument you agreed with)

[Deleted]

Making a retarded post when you haven't even read what I said doesn't really contribute to anything, mate...

Like I said "which possibly could be mentioned" means it might of already been mentioned but people seemingly bump over it. Just cause you write your own blog now doesn't give you the right to jump up on a high horse son. If we're discussing which is worth more after the soft cap... then I just thought I'd reiterate a point. God... turning into Qieth the troll (see what I did there?)

I want to put my finger on three things here:

- You wrote "which possibly could be mentioned" and not "which could possibly have been mentioned (already)". Your post was a "I might aswell mention this" not "Im going to say this, but it might already have been said".

- If you, in fact, meant to say that the points could have been mentioned already, then you probably shouldn't run around telling people to read what you say, when you havent even bothered to read the topic yourself. This simply enhances the point i was trying to make: If you cant be bothered to read the topic, and just post oneliners that has been covered already, then you really, sincerely, dont contribute at all.

- Me having a blog has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, at all. In fact, it seems to me that you think that because i do, i have LESS right to call you out when i disagree with your behaviour on the forum.

I take great offense to being called a troll. I don't think we have the same definition of the word, and it is certainly not what i am trying to do on these boards. When I call you out on redundant posts, its because i question why a frequent poster does so little to add to the conversation.

Starfire (Lunar eclipse): Starfire will not benefit from crit, unless any debuff on the boss or buff on you is missing.
Starfire (outside eclipse): Starfire will still benefit from crit here (again, unless at 100% buffed anyway).

Bottom line:
While the benefits of both crit and haste are comparable while being in an eclipse (Wrath benefits from crit, but not from haste; Starfire benefits from haste, but not from crit), outside an eclipse crit is still valuable for both spells while haste is only for one of them (starfire).

Furthermore, a higher crit rate ensures more eclipse procs, while you can cast as fast as you want, if you don't crit, you won't deal "enough" damage (I think that has as well been mentioned before).

This is a good point, as you, sometimes, lose a few buffs and the crit could turn around and benefit you even during lunar eclipse. Sometimes your idol might drop off, or you may be out of range of a totem and the like.

I have put this up on EJ, by the way. I think we here have a general concensus to go for crit, but it might be different when viewed with actual math. I dont posses the power of awesome algebra, unfortunately :P

The real question is, really, which is better of the following:
As little haste above the cap as possible, and max out crit over the cap?
100% crit during lunar eclipse, and 800+ haste rating?

[Aluana]

can you post the link for me qieth? i can't ever find stuff on that site...

you could actually remain at soft-crit cap (even be over) while still having over 800 haste and being at only slightly above the 10% hit cap (without a draenei), it's just that it'll take a few months before enough content is released for us to be able to get the gear that is required...

[Deleted]

I have put this up on EJ, by the way. I think we here have a general concensus to go for crit, but it might be different when viewed with actual math. I dont posses the power of awesome algebra, unfortunately

The math that was done (as of this morning) only covered the time to proc Eclipse factor though

More seriously, the problem will always be the same regarding haste and crit, and it's that while you can define a best stat on stand & nuke fights you can't really evaluate the impact when you have to move. Haste might get you one more spell in before moving or might do nothing, and so on.
Currently Rawr tells me that haste is indeed higher than crit after both caps are met (with a 10% difference between both), so overall the dps increase from both after soft caps are met should be near enough that it'll be lost in the noise.
(10% difference on a +10% crit or haste choice means a 1% difference between both choices)

[Deleted]

can you post the link for me qieth? i can't ever find stuff on that site...

you could actually remain at soft-crit cap (even be over) while still having over 800 haste and being at only slightly above the 10% hit cap (without a draenei), it's just that it'll take a few months before enough content is released for us to be able to get the gear that is required...

The post i made is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37039-m...6/#post1494833. Its basicly a watered down version of this thread, to make it a bit more precise.

Pyowin and Arawethion had a whack at it, and it seems to be like they are leaning towards crit more than haste, but Arawethion is a bit tricky to follow for me. Im sure more will come up in the next few days.

In the end, as Dje just said above, the actual difference between going for haste and going for crit will be rather small. I think ill be going for crit, personally. I like big numbers.

[Deleted]

Pyowin and Arawethion had a whack at it, and it seems to be like they are leaning towards crit more than haste, but Arawethion is a bit tricky to follow for me. Im sure more will come up in the next few days.

As i said, the only thing they mathed out is that crit is better than haste in order to reduce the time to proc Eclipse. They haven't looked at it precisely on a global level.

[Mutthear]

As I previously mentioned mr Q, crit and haste will ALMOST never exclude each other. It is Crit+Spirit, Haste+Spirit, Crit+Haste, Haste+Hit or Crit+Hit. In my "wish"list I am more or less at the same level of crit as your BiS list (only 50 crit rating off, which is only a bit more then 1% less crit), I gain 350 haste and loose 220 spirit.So there is no question between the 2 you mentioned, because its simply not there.

350 haste blows 50 crit rating and 220 spirit out of the water, you can disagree with me on that but according to our stats weights even after soft caps 1 haste is still 1.6-1.7x as good as 1 spirit and even if we take them as equals its still only a trade between 130 haste (approx 4%) and 50 crit (approx 1.1%) so even though we only use half of the haste (LE half of our cycle and I dont count DoTs since those don't crit or gain anything from haste in T10 it will be arround 50% of rotation) and the full ammount of crit, the haste still wins (4% / 2 = 2% against 1.1% crit).

This means that even when we our favouring crit over haste we will still gain more from my list,

Mutthear