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  1. #1
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Trinket comparison

    I've made this post in another topic, but i think it's complex enough to be a topic itself.
    One of the main choices of healer is trinket choosing. i've seen a lot of pallys with +128int trinket, a lot with Darkmoon card. to be honest, i've rarely seen two pallys with similar trinket setup, so i decided to make trinket comparsion theme. currently now i'll only copy/paste my previous post because there are 22.30pm now (i live GMT+3), but i'll try to add other healing trinkets in future. i'll be glad if you'll help me with trinket names, because i can miss some.

    18.02.2010: added Ephemeral Snowflake, modified Silver of Pure Ice rating.

    program, used for calculations:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ct-Calculator/
    the new build is available, now you can save results as a screenshot.
    ----------------

    i'm calculating assuming you have BoK, divine intellect 5/5, BE racial, Replenish 100% uptime, FoL casting time 1.1, HL casting time 1.25, 120sec Plea cd.
    initial mana pool is converted to mp5 by formula mp5=mana/7/60*5 (assuming 7 minutes average fight time).

    Tears (84 int)

    +50mp5 with proc
    total mp5: 105 to 112

    Alga-10 (111 int)

    proc:
    (it was buffed in 3.2 up to 75mp5 per stack)
    if you manage to take 20th stack to the end of duration, it will regen to you:
    75/5=15 mana each second per stack,(15+15*20)/2*20= 3150 mana each 120s=131.25mp5
    healing through Beacon counts as second spell. its nearby +750 (~3900) mana per use, +30 mp5. ( http://www.mmo-champion.com/class-pa...55/#msg1896655 )
    total mp5:234 to 214

    Card one(90int):

    assuming you use Plea on procs:
    300*15*0.25=+1125 mana every plea (46 mp5 with plea cd 2 min)
    total mp5: 105 to 112

    Badge one(128int):

    total mp5: 84.6 to 94.6

    the triumph badge one is worst one in mp5 counting. if you think that +700sp (~+6% healing through plea, since it cuts half the bonus - search for calculating in this thread) worths 20mp5 loss comparing even to Tears, take it. but personally i think that it doesn't worth.
    card/Tears are nearby equal, but if you missed with using plea when Card procced (maybe tank was dying so you was not able to place -50% healing on yourself) then it is trash.

    Sollace o the Fallen/defeated:
    124mp5+150sp (144mp5 + 168 sp heroic version)

    Silver of pure Ice heroic
    1830/120 * 5 = 76.25 mp5 (1min CD was a typo )

    Purified Lunar Dust:
    3 ticks for 305 mana = 915 mana
    915mana/55 *5 = 83 mp5 /// i assuming 55sec cd because of 45 sec internal cd and 0.1 chance to proc (procced nearby on 10 cast, if you have 1sec FoL cast time it's +10 seconds to internal cd

    finally, the priority list:
    counting only mp5 (read it if you think that sp, even in 100+ amounts, is not worth 10-20 mp5):
    Alga10->solace258>solace245>Tears~>card~>ToR~>PLD~>silver of pure ice (hc)
    counting sp&mp5 (do not read it if you think that sp, even in 100+ amounts, is not worth 10-20 mp5):
    Solace258>alga-10~>solace245>PLD~>tears~~silver of pure ice (hc)~>card~>ToR~>silver of pure ice

    by combinations:
    Solace258+Meteorite shard >Solace x2 >solace[245 or 258]+tears~>solace[245 or 258]+silver of pure ice (hc)~>solace[245 or 258]+Talisman.

    i've made priority only to few popular trinkets, so there are others (they all are worse than Tears of Vanquished, but can be compared to Talisman of Resurgence)

    Pandora's Plea:

    71.3 to 79.3 mp5, 26 sp. proc is uncontrollable, so you can't manage to use plea with it - so it is pure overhealing.

    Bauble of true blood: 86/76 mp5, proc is useful only in PvP

    Show of Faith: 66mp5 &140sp

    Silver of pure Ice normal
    1625/120 * 5 = 67 mp5 +158sp

    Althor's Abacus: 180/200sp, zero proc

    Binding stone / light, Energy Syphon, Living Ice crystals : all average 60 mp5 with nearby-zero procs.

    Purified/shiny shard of the scales:
    85/96 mp5. this trinket is pretty interesting, because in full-set it gives you:
    95mp5, 600health per 5 seconds, 250sp and useless proc, which will be overhealing. it is good, but two good trinkets would be better.

    Ephemeral Snowflake:
    due to nerf it has hidden 0.4sec cooldown. this cooldown means that it doesn't proc off Beaconed spell (since spell+his beaconed copy are 'casted' faster than 0.4secs), it doesn't proc off GoHoL (since these 5 heals are in the same time as main HL). also it doesn't proc off JoL, off FoL ticks or off HS ticks (with t8). so, in ideal situation when you are casting 1 cast each second (flash spamming or HL spamming with bloodlust) this trinket will give you 11*5=55 mp5.
    overall: 35-55mp5+pocket bloodlust. this is even worse than Spark of Life from Sjonnir (HoS).
    Last edited by Chronalis; 2010-07-02 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Edited a URL as requested
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  2. #2

    Re: Trinket comparsion

    Nice list.


    Personally it's a lot about utility to me though.

    I could get more bang for the buck by using something else than the Talisman of Resurgence, but I do like the on-use ability for Divine Plea.

    I use two macros for mana regen. My Divine Plea button automatically uses Talisman of Resurgence, so that I get +600sp during that DP to compensate for the 50% loss of healing effect. The second button pops Arcane Torrent, Avenging Wrath, and the instant mana regen on the Sliver of Pure Ice together with Divine Plea.

    This way I keep some resemblance of punch throughout my DPs (that I don't have to use often anyway), and I'm quite happy with the result.

    Considering Solace of the Fallen refuses to drop for my guild (we've had two drops in four months) and we're yet to kill Algalon (working on it atm) I'm in a bit of a pinch with trinket availability. I.e. if Solace of the Fallen would drop I wouldn't get it anyway, since other primary healers in the guild still need it more than I do.

  3. #3

    Re: Trinket comparison

    The new trinket from badges is not worth 83mp5. It's garbage. It is not better than tears of vanquished which you have been stating as better in the Rate my holy paladin posts (and on this post where you count SP)

    - 10 seconds at 10% proc chance? who spams flash of light for 10 seconds every 45 seconds just to get a proc? Fail.

    - The proc on Vanquished is worth closer to 55 than 50, since it procs 99% of the time as soon as the GCD is available, due to the hidden procs on virtually everything including beacon and auras.

    The 245 badge trinket is still a great buy for starting raiders since the 128int is hot, plus the SP proc can be macro'd to plea to save them some power when popping plea.

    Bottom line is nobody in their right mind should spend 60 frost emblems on that piece of crap until all needed tier pieces are bought, and their 264 legs are crafted from saronite. (unless they have 258 legs out of ToGC)

  4. #4
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    The new trinket from badges is not worth 83mp5. It's garbage. It is not better than tears of vanquished which you have been stating as better in the Rate my holy paladin posts (and on this post where you count SP)
    - 10 seconds at 10% proc chance? who spams flash of light for 10 seconds every 45 seconds just to get a proc? Fail.

    - The proc on Vanquished is worth closer to 55 than 50, since it procs 99% of the time as soon as the GCD is available, due to the hidden procs on virtually everything including beacon and auras.

    The 245 badge trinket is still a great buy for starting raiders since the 128int is hot, plus the SP proc can be macro'd to plea to save them some power when popping plea.

    Bottom line is nobody in their right mind should spend 60 frost emblems on that piece of crap until all needed tier pieces are bought, and their 264 legs are crafted from saronite. (unless they have 258 legs out of ToGC)
    okay, by steps.
    1. let's imagine that new badge trinket procs every 60 secs (45sec + 11casts of HL with 1.3sec cast time). then it worth 915/58*5=76.25 mp5. in my post i said 83 mp5.
    compare Tears to badge one: 25sp from int +90mp5 (tears) vs 160 sp + 76 mp5. do you really think that 14mp5=120sp?
    badge one is better. but it is not better than Tier 10 pieces or even cloak, if you have crappy one. in this thread i've compared only trinkets, so don't include there amount of badges, required to purchase this trinket, and don't compare this amount to tier gloves or to primordial saronite.

    2. proc of vanquished.
    int cd - 45. proc chance - 25% (proc on fourth cast). let's take something between HL and FoL - 1.1 cast time. then it will proc on 45+4*1.1=49.4 second.
    500/49.4*5=50.6 mp5. do you really think that 50.6 closer to 55 than to 50? your logic on beacon is wrong, since it procs on spell cast, not on *restoring life*. only Meteorite crystal procs of beaconed spell.
    let's imagine that you are right with Beacon so it'll proc on the 3rd cast. let's imagine that this cast is FoL.
    500/(45+3)*5=52 mp5. it's not 55 mp5.
    also, nothing procs off the auras. if you'll swap some BIG AURA, like our raid-wided one in trinket's icd, you'll gain one *spell casted*.
    if you'll buf Greater Something on, for example, 7 mages in raid, it'll proc 7 times. so spend 500 mana(250 glyphed) every 45 seconds to increase your manaregen from 50 to 55. but wait... 250/45*5=27 mp5 loss... it isn't worth 5mp5 difference, is it?

    3. 128 int one is good for beginner raiders, yes. but if you have kiled anub in 25ppl normal and holy is your main spec, then you have no excuse to wear it

    p.s.
    to those who are trying to save Talisman by saying *it's good for plea*:
    avenging wrath gives you +20% healing (1.2 coeficent), so if you will pop it over Plea it will give you +10% of your healing over plea w/o wings. (1.2*0.5 vs 0.5 is 0.6 vs 0.5)
    assuming you have 3k sp raid buffed, Talisman gives you nearby 700/(3000+700)*100=+18% sp. since healing spells scaling in way heal=[constant]+[coefficient]*sp rather than just [coefficient]*sp, it will add you nearby 12% healing. 12% over plea is 6%. 6% is... hmm... very small amount, am i right?
    p.p.s. do not say *this 6% will save your raid*. if your raid needs to be saved, you must not use plea. if you can't use plea then you need mana regeneration which isn't scaling with it. if you trade some of your plea-regen to the same amount of non-plea regen, you'll take over the world be able to save your mana with lesser time of plea debuff, so your raid will be more secure.
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  5. #5

    Re: Trinket comparison

    False on the 2. proc of vanquished.

    Go in a raid of 25 people, and put beacon on someone. Put up an aura. The proc off vanquished procs off virtually EVERYTHING. People walking in and out of your aura range can proc it. The hidden buff that beacon applies to people in its range can proc it too. (yes the spell used to put up an icon on everyone, it doesnt anymore, but that doesnt mean its gone) Hell you ive been standing still NOT CASTING ANYTHING and as long as my aura and beacon are up, it will proc. It's a known fact (bug or whatever, it happens). So yes, it's closer to 55 than 50. Maybe like 53 but thats still closer to 55. haha.

    I find it amusing you will weigh the SP of the new trinket (useless stat for us, helps SS but really thats it) but you won't weigh the intellect on the other trinkets. Last i checked, its our best stat. Starting mana, crit (yes that useless stat), and mana back from divine hymn etc, all make me sleep better at night than wearing extra SP i don't need to itemize towards.

    Yes Solace slaughters these few intellect trinkets we have, but why? Because it's outrageously overbudgeted in mp5. The SP is just cake on the deal.

    LOL @ your point number 3. So we've been clearly Jaraxx on normal and heroic since they were released, and only 2 solaces have dropped total, and I did not have a 10 man ulduar group running with this character back then, that means I have no excuse to wear the 128int trinket? Your logic fails.

    I still don't see how your giving any credit to this new trinket. I've bought and tested it numerous times now, and it's complete under budgetted crap compared to other stuff available, and the other frost trinkets.

    *Edit* LoL at me thinking you could provide a good debate on this. I looked at your armory. Spirit leg enchant? Icewalker? Crit enchant on helm? Ret sub spec but no PoJ? Sigh. Clearly you know itemization better than I do.

  6. #6
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    False on the 2. proc of vanquished.
    Go in a raid of 25 people, and put beacon on someone. Put up an aura. The proc off vanquished procs off virtually EVERYTHING. People walking in and out of your aura range can proc it. The hidden buff that beacon applies to people in its range can proc it too. (yes the spell used to put up an icon on everyone, it doesnt anymore, but that doesnt mean its gone) Hell you ive been standing still NOT CASTING ANYTHING and as long as my aura and beacon are up, it will proc. It's a known fact (bug or whatever, it happens). So yes, it's closer to 55 than 50. Maybe like 53 but thats still closer to 55. haha.
    tears give you 55mp5 if they'll proc instantly when cd is off. it's impossible. even if you'd manage to do so, it's only 55 mp5. that's good but 2 extra mp5 do not overweights 120 extra sp from badge trinket.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    I find it amusing you will weigh the SP of the new trinket (useless stat for us, helps SS but really thats it) but you won't weigh the intellect on the other trinkets. Last i checked, its our best stat. Starting mana, crit (yes that useless stat), and mana back from divine hymn etc, all make me sleep better at night than wearing extra SP i don't need to itemize towards.
    go to 'intellect calculator' thread and view the source code of my calculator. what i've posted on screenshots is what intellect provides us. not even one mp5 more.
    mana given you by Divine hymn is taken back when hymn is ended.
    sp is not useless. if you can heal only with HL, you are bad. flash is more cheaper and more faster. shock is instant. flash and shock scales with sp.
    oh wait, hadn't you noticed 'counting only mp5' list of trinkets? new badge one is not better than tears in this list.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    LOL @ your point number 3. So we've been clearly Jaraxx on normal and heroic since they were released, and only 2 solaces have dropped total, and I did not have a 10 man ulduar group running with this character back then, that means I have no excuse to wear the 128int trinket? Your logic fails.
    i meant that you have no excuse to overrate it. one way is if you are wearing one, but want to replace it. other way is if you are wearing one and do not want to replace it. you obviously understood that but decided to begin to whine.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    I still don't see how your giving any credit to this new trinket. I've bought and tested it numerous times now, and it's complete under budgetted crap compared to other stuff available, and the other frost trinkets.
    okay, one more time. 128int gives you 60 mp5, 30sp and useless proc.
    new badge one gives you 80 mp5 and 150 sp.

    *other frost trinkets*. there is only one for healers. are you comparing healer trinket to tank trinket?
    *other stuff*. you are comparing trinket (costs 60 badges) to shoulders (60), waist(60), hands(60), chest and other tier pieces(95). yes, it costs much. yes, it's good. yes, you should get one after achieving 2t10 bonus. no, you shouldn't get it if you'll take Solace to that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    *Edit* LoL at me thinking you could provide a good debate on this. I looked at your armory. Spirit leg enchant? Icewalker? Crit enchant on helm? Ret sub spec but no PoJ? Sigh. Clearly you know itemization better than I do.
    yeah, spirit leg enchant. in battle, if i died and get battle-rezzed, i use plea and go melee boss. 10seconds of that i am out of 5sec rule. spirit provides me additional mana regen to me in such situation.
    compare it to stam one. 20stamina=nearby 240 hp. 240 hp. yes, that's useful.

    yes, icewalker. yes, it's bad. yes, i am trying to replace it. yes, i can not find enchanter in my guild and i am too lazy to teleport to Orgrimmar.
    head chant: if you read *rate above*thread carefully, you could notice that i wrote 'i want to replace it, but i'll do so when i'll change my head'.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    Ret sub spec but no PoJ? Sigh. Clearly you know itemization better than I do.
    oh hell 15% RUN SPEED! healer need run speed soooo much! that's because he is supposed to cast heals while running, isn't it? or you can't runaway from Icehowl without run speed?
    oh noes.. i got it.. you meant that i need disarm reduction?

    you're failed.
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  7. #7

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Pretty nice post and good idea, mind if I copy a majority over to my Holy pally FAQ? (I'll give you a credit and a link to this guide)

    Thanks

    Btw I don't agree with your last 2 above points, the Stamina could of stopped you dying and the spirit is worth probably less than 50 mana in the described situation, you just got it because you're a cheap ass. And Persuit of Justice allows you to get everywhere quicker which allows you to heal quicker, and is just better than any other option once you're 15 or 18 points deep Ret

  8. #8
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs
    Pretty nice post and good idea, mind if I copy a majority over to my Holy pally FAQ? (I'll give you a credit and a link to this guide)
    Thanks
    yes of course.
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  9. #9

    Re: Trinket comparison

    LOL @ Your spirit theory. Grats on counting on dying and needing to be battle rezzed. All your excuses translate to : "I'm cheap and lazy, i'd rather spend time making a program to decide which trinkets are better for me than upgrade my gear properly"

    Pallys can't heal on the move save for holy shock, why would you NOT want to get from point A to point B any faster?

    I'll say this once, thanks for making the thread and doing some calculations, it will help some people make decisions.

    Beyond that I cannot listen to any of your theorycrafting on how spell power is worth any weight. Sorry. Our job is to tank heal, beyond throwing a holy shock/instant flash combo to an almost dead raid member, i'll stick to beaconing my tank and holy light bombing the other tank/melee/raid. SP is our worst stat. We get more than enough from gear.


  10. #10
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    SP is our worst stat. We get more than enough from gear.
    then drop out your bracers and mace sp enchant and take crappy int one (crappy for mace, mid-level for bracers).

    yes, sp is not good enough stat, but you want to trade 120 sp for 8 mp5. that's bad trade.
    and as for sp+spirit chant on legs: yes, spirit provides me nearby zero effect, but that's +300 mana every 3 weeks. but 200 hp provides you... zero? because it is small amount even for tanks (excluding bears)?

    and where you are required to run so much so 15% run speed will worth something? in running from graveyard to algalon through the whole ulduar, retri paladins are running 30 yards in front of me when i reach Algalon. that's nearby +5 seconds.
    where did you ever seen encounter with ulduar-like size of territory?
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  11. #11

    Re: Trinket comparison

    I can't work out the effectiveness of run speed atm because I don't have the time, but I will quote a very easy line I can remember from my Enhancement Shaman days

    8% run speed (standard boot enchant) is worth around 1% total damage on a run ~30 yards to the boss once or twice fight

    Rets get over 2% from PoJ and healers move more than melee on quite a lot of fights these days, other than the initial run in. And that 2% damage can convert into 2% haste (although its more) for healers, you heal faster and can either get your heal down first to save other healers mana, or to save that guy's life rather than have him die.

    Its very hard to win people over with your attitude but I hope you have the intellect to see the reasoning.

    Stamina provides you the ability to save that mana you would have lost from dying, thats where the bonus comes. And with Paladins having quite low health you need every bonus you can get.

  12. #12

    Re: Trinket comparison

    I'm not comparing 120 sp to 8 mp5.

    I'm comparing 120 sp to 8mp5, 1500ish mana, and the crit the int gives. Int scales with kings and talents. SP does not. Bet you didn't calculate that into your oh so great theorycrafting now did ya?

    Anybody who takes 30spi instead of 30stm and claims to need battle rezzes clearly can't get out of fire or holyshock themselves.....someone who clearly prefers 12crit rating to 15stm + run speed shouldnt be theorycrafting for our class.

  13. #13
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    I'm not comparing 120 sp to 8 mp5.

    I'm comparing 120 sp to 8mp5, 1500ish mana, and the crit the int gives. Int scales with kings and talents. SP does not. Bet you didn't calculate that into your oh so great theorycrafting now did ya?
    all calculations for int are done assuming you have 1.1 coefficient from BoK and 1.1 from talent. those screens for int trinkets includes 1.21 coefficient from BoK and talent.
    amount of mp5 given by int in calculations includes mp5 you gain from crits with fol/hl spam. that is the reason of *double* mp5 of int trinkets - f.e. Tears equals 87mp5 if fol spamming and 94mp5 if HL spamming.

    84 int from tears provides you 0.5%crit, that's +0.005*0.5=0.0025=+0.25% additional healing (since crit gives you chance to heal to 1.5 instead of 1).
    that's +12 healing to Flash (if it hits for 5k w/o crit) and +24 healing to HL (if it hits for 10k w/o crit).

    1500 mana for 7min fight is 18 mp5.
    so you are comparing:
    90mp5+18mp5+0.25% healing +25sp vs 80mp5 +150 sp
    105mp5 +0.25% healing +25sp vs 80mp5 +150sp
    23 mp5 vs 125sp

    as stated in *counting only mp5* list, tears provides more mp5.
    as stated in *counting mp5&sp* list, Lunar dust slightly overrates mp5 loss with sp. if you think sp is a worthless stat (in such amounts) - use first trinkets ranking.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    Anybody who takes 30spi instead of 30stm and claims to need battle rezzes clearly can't get out of fire or holyshock themselves.....
    as i've stated, i usually claim for battle rez 1 time in 3 weeks. usually this is on Champions, if crowd controllers were slacking and i was bursted down by 3-4 NPC's. and i took 20 spi instead of 20 stm. do not miss the numbers.
    20stm is 240 hp. it is nothing. absolutely nothing.
    20 spi for pala is almost nothing. nearby 0.00000000000001 times as cool as int. but 0.00000000000001>0 from stam, am i right? and using your logic, 20 stam is for those who can't get out of fire and need extra hp's.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbk2009
    someone who clearly prefers 12crit rating to 15stm + run speed shouldnt be theorycrafting for our class.
    as i already stated several times, but as you didn't read, i am going to replace boot chant, but can't find the time . and it will be replaced with http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=44584.

    2 Xs.
    this is worth to melee, because they can move for like 30-40 yards 2-3-4 times in a battle. but healer do not required to be in melee radius to heal. with 40 yards healing range healer can heal two targets within 80 yards of each another. with Beacon bug (it procs in 60 yds from you, not from the one who get direct healing) you can heal two targets within 100 yards of each another and any target within 60m radius to yourself. for healer even 15% is worthless.

    but let's imagine for some time, that PoJ provides us 2% more healing as you've stated (not haste, because your spells are not casting faster - they are just begin to cast earlier). then i can drop 2% healing from PoJ... and put it into 2% Divinity healing, and this will be the same.

    ps Xs, as i can see from your sig, your average item lvl is nearby 226-232 (since you have 26k mana, 600 haste, 34%crit,100mp5 and only 2200sp). in this level gear yes, stamina is better. but in 245-258-264 items there are much more stamina than in 226. nearby every piece of gear brings me 30-40 more stamina than yours. currently now i can even survive up to 3 npc's zerging myself in ToGC25 with only self-healing (sometimes i can't just bubble myself). currently now 20sta for me is zero. 20spi is nearby zero, but it provides me +0.000002 mp5. i'll trade 20 sta for 0.000002 mp5. this trade can look strange, and that's the reason why i do not force peoples to do so. that's my own choice, which zero is better. i think that 20spi will provide me bigger zero than 20stam one.
    p.p.s. - if your sig is outdated, please post link to your armory so i'd be able to compare.
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  14. #14

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Dude, why do you keep claiming 20 stamina? Wtf are you BLIND?!?! It's 30 get it right already. Stamina is hands down a better stat for us than spirit, get your mind out of trees/priests already.

    You die on faction champions? that hilarious. L2 bubble and stay away from melee. Seriously you keep digging yourself deeper into a hole.

    If it includes BoK and Talents maybe that should have been in your original post....

  15. #15

    Re: Trinket comparison

    LOL Talisman of Resurgence = most awsome trinket of all times

    I use it to boost my SS when my Pandora's Plea procs, with 4.5k SP SS absorbs alot. The intellect alone improves the mana regen from Replenishment and DP, I prefer that. Also Tuskarr Vitality is better than mp5, because you move quicker and less.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=M%C3%A4gnus

    My armory
    IM TEH RET! er... teh holy... or it was teh prot?!
    This bro told a cool story on 2009-12-03 and proudly took part in the banfest.

  16. #16

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Your list has some merit and I'll give you some credit, however, by claiming the Talisman of Resurgence is trash compared to the others is downright wrong.

    When you make a list of trinkets, and you compare ONLY primarily the MP5 value of the trinket, of course Talisman looks terrible.

    However, where you are going wrong is that your not factoring in the 2k+ initial mana you begin the fight with.

    Taking those factors into consideration, honestly, every list I have seen is something like this:

    Algalon 10 > Solace 258 > Solace 245 > Talisman > all others.

    Some argue that Greatness is better if you time DP with the 300 int proc. But I'm sorry on hard modes I find this extremely difficult.
    Xentin
    Damage Control [Suramar-US]

  17. #17

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Xentin
    you compare ONLY primarily
    "They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works everytime."
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  18. #18

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag
    ps Xs, as i can see from your sig, your average item lvl is nearby 226-232 (since you have 26k mana, 600 haste, 34%crit,100mp5 and only 2200sp). in this level gear yes, stamina is better. but in 245-258-264 items there are much more stamina than in 226. nearby every piece of gear brings me 30-40 more stamina than yours. currently now i can even survive up to 3 npc's zerging myself in ToGC25 with only self-healing (sometimes i can't just bubble myself). currently now 20sta for me is zero. 20spi is nearby zero, but it provides me +0.000002 mp5. i'll trade 20 sta for 0.000002 mp5. this trade can look strange, and that's the reason why i do not force peoples to do so. that's my own choice, which zero is better. i think that 20spi will provide me bigger zero than 20stam one.
    p.p.s. - if your sig is outdated, please post link to your armory so i'd be able to compare.
    As you can see from my sig, it says I'm a 10 manner and as you can probably tell from it and the fact I have so many posts, I stopped playing quite a while ago, pretty much at the end of Ulduar actually.

    Your argument is still invalid, your health scales, as does the damage done to you. And if you need the spirit regen when you get combat resed rather than just going and hitting the boss like once or twice, then you really do fail. Stamina is useful on every fight, for reducing percentage of incoming damage being lethal.

    As for the speed argument, as I said its very hard to argue it to people who don't take the original reasoning. Because you still have to move out of fires and other things, its not just long distances that it gets its value from, it allows you to move out of fire 15% faster, start healing again 15% faster, and for a healer without much instant healing, it allows you to get back to your main job 15% faster. Rather than zomg 2% more healing or :O! 12 crit rating (Tuskarr's vitality would give you more output than that)

  19. #19
    The Patient Dantrag's Avatar
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    Re: Trinket comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by Xs
    As you can see from my sig, it says I'm a 10 manner and as you can probably tell from it and the fact I have so many posts, I stopped playing quite a while ago, pretty much at the end of Ulduar actually.
    Your argument is still invalid, your health scales, as does the damage done to you. And if you need the spirit regen when you get combat resed rather than just going and hitting the boss like once or twice, then you really do fail. Stamina is useful on every fight, for reducing percentage of incoming damage being lethal.
    As for the speed argument, as I said its very hard to argue it to people who don't take the original reasoning. Because you still have to move out of fires and other things, its not just long distances that it gets its value from, it allows you to move out of fire 15% faster, start healing again 15% faster, and for a healer without much instant healing, it allows you to get back to your main job 15% faster. Rather than zomg 2% more healing or :O! 12 crit rating (Tuskarr's vitality would give you more output than that)
    i didn't said anything about *your progress is bad so dont tell me* because i saw that you are 10manner. also since togc10-icc10 provides 245-251 iLvl loot, i assumed that you don't raid now. i only said that 240hp was good in ulduar times, but it is not so good now.
    anyway, 30stam vs 20 spi is zero vs zero and it is not what the thread about.
    i'll never put enchant speed and i'll never take PoJ until next quarter of ICC will be released. if on some bosses like That-thing-with-kiting-green-slimes speed will worth something, i'd take 1/5 divinity and 2/2 poj instead of 3/5 divinity. but now i have no troubles with fire-running. my last death because of i've not ran away was nearby 2.5 months ago.
    when you are moving out of flames, you are moving for like 5 meters. that's one jump and one step. speed will provide you maybe additional 0.15 seconds of healing.
    and, as i said 3 or 4 times, i just can't find time to replace this chant on my boots. maybe i'll do so today or tomorrow.

    anyway, this is not thread about PoJ and speed chant. if you (Xs &tbk) want to argue, please write a message to me and we'll have conversation. as for your notes, tbk - i answered them nearby 2-3 times each another. yes, i missed with adding *this calculations are made with assuming of bok and talent* string to the first post. i'll add it now. if you want conversation about my chants, write me a message and i'll copy/paste some of my posts there.

    as for *you are not counting initial mana pool in your comparison*. for 100 int mana pool (average int on any trinket) mp5 in 7minute fight equals to 100*1.21*15/7/60*5=21 mp5. yes, that worths. and my priority lists are made assuming this. you can quote this - *silver~>badge old*. *~>* character means *slightly better*. if you wish, i'll swap them places.


    i think tears are not worse than Talisman.
    tears provides you ~90 mp5 because of proc and intellect. Talisman provides you 60 mp5 and additional mana pool from 128-84=44 int. this is 798.6 mana with bok and talents. 800 mana in 7min fight is 9 mp5.
    so tears provides you 90 mp5, talisman provides you 70 mp5. yes, talisman provides you proc, but it is not compensating plea more than by 6% (AW compensates 10%). for someone 6% is big, for someone it is small amount of healing. i think it is not worth +20mp5 from tears.

    i've modified my first post to match new data about 'mana pool mp5'.
    [Talisman of Resurgence] icon is made of small kitten's red eyes. each time you use the proc, the god kills two more kittens to refresh it's icon after cooldown.
    Holy Paladin trinket comparison

  20. #20

    Re: Trinket comparison

    Yes, if looking only at regen, then Tears is the better trinket by about 25 mp5. Here are my numbers, calculated using the values from the EJ Holy Paladin 3.3 Compendium by Frmorrison:

    Int 100 84 125
    Mana 1815 1524.6 2268.75
    Plea 39.5 33.18 49.375
    Replen 18.1 15.204 22.625
    Torrent 4.7 3.948 5.875
    SP 25.3 21.252 31.625
    Crit 0.759 0.63756 0.94875
    Proc 0 ~50mp5 0
    Total Mp5 62.3 102.332 77.875

    But to only look at the regen ignores 800 starting mana, 10 SP, .3 crit and its on-use ability.

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