Mutilate Compendium - 3.3.3 And Beyond

[Molakar]

Only trust spreadsheets

Silly me that used Rawr then. Haven't had any chance to use a spreadsheet since I don't have any program that could handle them (like Excel) installed.

[izayoi80]

Except that 51/18/2 is NOT the only viable assassination spec.

I do decent dps with the old 51/13/7, and enjoy it more aswell. 51/18/2 is supposed to be about a 40dps increase for me,
which in my opinion is not enough to warrant playing a slightly less "fun" spec.

40dps when you reach almost 13k on spank-bosses is insignificant.

[Annoying]

Silly me that used Rawr then. Haven't had any chance to use a spreadsheet since I don't have any program that could handle them (like Excel) installed.

Aldriana's spreadsheet is made in openoffice, so grabing OO for free should easily solve that =D.

Except that 51/18/2 is NOT the only viable assassination spec.

I do decent dps with the old 51/13/7, and enjoy it more aswell. 51/18/2 is supposed to be about a 40dps increase for me,
which in my opinion is not enough to warrant playing a slightly less "fun" spec.

40dps when you reach almost 13k on spank-bosses is insignificant.

That depends on your definition of "viable". I consider "viable" in hard-mode progression to be the same as "optimal". The 40dps difference from adding rupture is further diminished if you take into account that Aldriana has explicitly said that the rupture modeling is based on a rupture uptime that is nearly unobtainable, lowering it's dps even further. It also doesn't take into account that losing TotT glyph loses tons of raid DPS when replaced with rupture glyph. If it's fun for you and your raid doesn't care, then by all means, have fun. It's close, but definitely behind when speaking optimally.

[Molakar]

Aldriana's spreadsheet is made in openoffice, so grabing OO for free should easily solve that =D.

Might be me that is a bit slow in the head but Aldriana's Mutilate spreadsheet only covers like 10-15 items for each slot and none of them is the gear that I have on my rogue.

[Nhanous]

long time ago i red in a Blue Post that Rogue passive damage would be nerfed.... shall we gem just AP? how important is haste after this?


"Overall, we think rogues do too much passive damage -- autoattacks + poison. We want to shift more of that towards their specials, which will let both the finishers and the generators hit harder while keeping sustained damage about the same. It might mean less-skilled rogues do less damage by comparison, but that's not really a bad thing."
By Ghostcrawler

[Annoying]

Might be me that is a bit slow in the head but Aldriana's Mutilate spreadsheet only covers like 10-15 items for each slot and none of them is the gear that I have on my rogue.

I see you didn't even read my thread before posting in it. There's a guide on adding your own gear on the second post. Read it.

long time ago i red in a Blue Post that Rogue passive damage would be nerfed.... shall we gem just AP? how important is haste after this?


"Overall, we think rogues do too much passive damage -- autoattacks + poison. We want to shift more of that towards their specials, which will let both the finishers and the generators hit harder while keeping sustained damage about the same. It might mean less-skilled rogues do less damage by comparison, but that's not really a bad thing."
By Ghostcrawler

Impossible to tell. We'd need to actually see the magnitude of the nerf to re-do the math on what stats hold what value.

[Molakar]

I see you didn't even read my thread before posting in it. There's a guide on adding your own gear on the second post. Read it.

I didn't really see the point in reading a FAQ when I didn't have a frequently asked question like what kind of poision I should use on my daggers or about my rotation. I just wanted to know if I should trust what rawr was telling me or not. And then we started talking about spreadsheets...

[Nekrol]

Impossible to tell. We'd need to actually see the magnitude of the nerf to re-do the math on what stats hold what value.

I'd say that haste will still be a viable stat, since they only nerf the damage itself. Haste combined with crit will still produce more focused attacks which results in more Mutilates and finishers.

So in short wouldnt haste result in a higher mutilate/envenom dps output in cata?

[Graam]

I'm relatively new to rogue, been running my heroics and the new 5's. With some crafted gear and pvp stuff for slots I was having trouble upgrading, I'm up to an average iLevel of 238 (Jeal, US-The Venture Company). Took the trouble to add my crappy gear to the spreadsheet just for giggles, but still had a question about weapon choice. I've got two Blood Weepers (1.8 speed from H FoS) and two Unsharpened Ice Razors (1.4 speed trash drop). Spreadsheet show's me I definitely don't want to use the two slow ones together, but the numbers came out pretty similar for two fast, or one slow one fast, and for the slow/fast combo it didn't seem to matter which hand was which. Not sure what the spreadsheet was assuming about which hand had which poison either.

tl;dr: for daggers with the same average dps, would you recommend fast/fast, slow/fast, fast/slow, or irrelevant? I assume deadly on the fast, instant on the other, no matter which hand is which.

On a separate note, trash dps isn't a mutilate rogue's main concern, but do you recommend dagger swapping for FoK? With my gear each Fan hits each target 20-25% harder with two Blood Weepers instead of two Unsharpened Ice Razors.

[Annoying]

tl;dr: for daggers with the same average dps, would you recommend fast/fast, slow/fast, fast/slow, or irrelevant? I assume deadly on the fast, instant on the other, no matter which hand is which.

On a separate note, trash dps isn't a mutilate rogue's main concern, but do you recommend dagger swapping for FoK? With my gear each Fan hits each target 20-25% harder with two Blood Weepers instead of two Unsharpened Ice Razors.

You've got the assumption for DP/IP right. The spreadsheet does this for you, but doesn't display it. I run fast/slow when I run mutilate, but if your outcomes in dps are close (~20dps or so), you really can run whatever you're most comfortable with.

Slow/fast or fast/slow will beat fast/fast on fok, so if you want to do good sustained on a boss that requires FoK, look to those. Swapping is also a possibility, but hard to do in practice short of easy trash.

[Alacer]

You've got the assumption for DP/IP right. The spreadsheet does this for you, but doesn't display it. I run fast/slow when I run mutilate, but if your outcomes in dps are close (~20dps or so), you really can run whatever you're most comfortable with.

Slow/fast or fast/slow will beat fast/fast on fok, so if you want to do good sustained on a boss that requires FoK, look to those. Swapping is also a possibility, but hard to do in practice short of easy trash.

Wouldn't a fast dagger in OH result in more focused attack proccs?

[Lemons]

I have a question that probably sounds really, really noobish but I need to ask anyways...I heard that clipping envenoms is good IF you clip it within the half second before it expires because it gives that Envenom a higher chance to proc an IP. Is this correct? Or should you wait until the Envenom buff is completely gone before Envenoming again?

[Annoying]

Wouldn't a fast dagger in OH result in more focused attack proccs?

Yes, at the cost of softer hitting mutilates.

I have a question that probably sounds really, really noobish but I need to ask anyways...I heard that clipping envenoms is good IF you clip it within the half second before it expires because it gives that Envenom a higher chance to proc an IP. Is this correct? Or should you wait until the Envenom buff is completely gone before Envenoming again?

Envenom applies it's own buff before it procs it's poison. Thus it receives it's own bonus, meaning clipping won't increase your dps at all. I actually originally had this in my guide, but was corrected by a few sources of testing on EJ.

[Emoknights]

SO, I have a question. Possibly several.

1. Does armor pen have any value to a mut spec rogue and is it worth gemming for?
2. For the 51/18/2 spec, is it at all viable to move the 2 points in Relentless Strikes to Opportunity?

Forgive me if the questions are noob, I do not play a rogue as a main. Just want to know because I plan on playing my rogue far more often. =D

Thanks!

[Rorschach]

SO, I have a question. Possibly several.

1. Does armor pen have any value to a mut spec rogue and is it worth gemming for?
2. For the 51/18/2 spec, is it at all viable to move the 2 points in Relentless Strikes to Opportunity?

Forgive me if the questions are noob, I do not play a rogue as a main. Just want to know because I plan on playing my rogue far more often. =D

Thanks!

No and no.

1. Armor pen has little value of course, but it's inferior to haste/ap so no worth gemming.
2. This was probably answered somewhere in this thread but it isn't wise to take opportunity. Mutilate only makes a small amount of our dps and that 20% extra isn't enough to compensate the loss from extra energy coming from relentless strikes.

[Emoknights]

Alright thanks! But one clarification, for red sockets, they should be +40 AP or +20AP/+10 Haste?

Again, thanks =D

[Anelya]

Alright thanks! But one clarification, for red sockets, they should be +40 AP or +20AP/+10 Haste?

Again, thanks =D

I use 40 ap in red sockets and 20ap/10 haste for yellow sockets (when pure 20 haste doesn't give better dps in ze spreadsheet).

[Deleted]

Hello, I have a rogue in level 75, and I thought the guide was indeed very helpful. You came with some aspects of the spec I never realized just by leveling, especially the point about pooling energy before an evenom. I have a few questions though.

1. Is http://www.wowhead.com/talent#f0ec0e...0xV0xcZb:ITpVc still the best spec in terms of dps, because I thought that 2/2 Opportunity instead of Relentless Strikes would be more beneficial?

2. Is using a mouseover macro for tricks of the trade an optimal solution?

3. When farming heroics, wouldn't it be best to glyph fan of knives instead of tricks of the trade?

4. Untill I get a somewhat stationary gear set (and therefore able to spreadsheet it), wouldn't it be best to gem AP as a general rule of thumbs?

[LeperHerring]

2. Is using a mouseover macro for tricks of the trade an optimal solution?

There's no universal optimum for that since it depends on the players' preference. However, fixed macros using either focus or a player name are probably going to be more convenient considering that you will be tricksing the same target most of the time (tank in heroics, another rogue in raids).

3. When farming heroics, wouldn't it be best to glyph fan of knives instead of tricks of the trade?

Yes. Although it would be even better to spec combat.

[Abbyd]

You only use that extra energy once. After that, there's no point where you go above about 80 energy (and certainly never above 100), so you're dumping a whole talent point into 10 energy on the opener.

I disagree . Currently I'm sitting at 573 haste, 403 hit, and 49.99% crit unbuffed. In a 25 man raid I found myself often getting lucky strings of ruthlessness procs combined with mutilate crits (and the 25 energy from relentless strikes) and finding myself clipping my envenom buffs because I simply had TOO much energy than I knew what to do with. It was either clip my envenom to avoid capping my energy or let my energy overcap and waste it. Here I am sitting with these two seemingly undisirable talent/glyphs, im speaking of Quick recovery and Glyph of FoK. Why would I need glyph of FoK? I focus on single dps on boss fights primarily, so it's pretty much useless right there. I replace with glyph of vigor. 2 points into quick recovery seem half wasted, as Im expertise cap and my finishing moves WILL always land. I can get by on just 1 point in this for the 10% healing recieved. I took one point from that, and into Vigor.
Now in the beginning it may seem as though your only benefitting from the start by 20 energy, which by the way offers excellent breathing room for the start of your rotation, also allowing you to go slightly longer before you find yourself energy starved. Also for those cases where you have to choose bettween clipping your Env buff or capping your energy, you now have an extra second of breathing room, that may just allow you to negate either choice. It's worked wonders for my rotation. You should really try it out.