Reinvention: Stratholme

[Lightfist]

Very well thought out, and I'd like to see it implemented. I would like to thank you for taking the put to put all this down for our reading pleasure. Especially like the idea of the Cult returning, battered but unbeaten, to try and hold their unholy grounds. That being said, and I know that certainly wasn't EVERY idea you had, I would like to see Slaughter Square with perhaps some mini-boss in it. I've forgotten exactly why, but I know it's very sacred ground to the Scourge, particularly the runed circle in the building. Might be important to holding up moral for the Cult or something - perhaps a quest to defeat said mini-boss and cleanse it.

Anyway, thanks again for the read!

[Racer]

Yay i got quoted! :P

I didn't quite get what you answered but i had already read about those suggestions and have seen screenshots of that night elvish tower thingy, tho i've never been there. Anyway what i was originally trying to say is that Chromie could be there in the new 4.0 Stratholme to send you to the older 1.0/level 60 dungeon (don't think you could do away whith that completely - like somebody already said dungeons are are very "precious"). And since he(she?)'s already there why not add some story line (trough quests) on why you must go back back to Stratholme again? Maybe destroying a bastion of the Scourge was actually really important? Or there are some remnants of the CoT battle (you didn't get to the infinite in time! Oh Noes!), so you must go back back in time once again to do the cleaning :P

[tädpole]

i love reading fan lore that is well thought out and well written. good job dude!

[prochy]

When I entered CoT Stratholme, I was thinking that's awesome... not just the city, but a wood near the city, I really regret I have never had enough time to explore it since everybode wants to do a quick run and no-one cares about a wandering woods :P

To be honest, I have thought in a similar way to finaly cleanse Felwood (after 5 years doing quests to drive legion back with all my characters it's time to see results :P), but this one feels to be more interesting since you said that everybody expects the city 1. to be burned completely 2. retaken by paladins.

I really hope to see changes of that kind in WoW, not the fortification of orgrimmars one tower and wait until next two expansion until the second one will be dealt with.

[Retrogames]

Good Afternoon, readers. I was planning to wait on replying to this thread to keep it visible on the first page, but it seems like you've already done that for me. ;D

Thanks to Critpocket, kalyynthefailadin (That was the feeling I was going for, by the way), tädpole, prochy and PaladinBash (I actually did some work on a Paladin Tier set, here and here). Some really flattering compliments going on in this thread, I'm glad so many people have enjoyed it. On to the comments!

What I mean if you cannot mount and run around is because you will agro monsters, and even if they are non-elites, if you try to run past them and for some reason they daze you they will probably blow you up. I'm not concerned it's small, it's good that it's small, it's a change. What I see, is there is no "road" to follow, and the standard is "there's no monsters in the road".

I get what you're saying; this area would be tedious to quest in because there's only one way out and you'd have to constantly deal with respawns and enemies in your path. While I'm fairly certain there are lots of subzones like this already (Hearthglen, Tyr's Hand, and Browman Mill jump to mind in EPL alone), that is a valid point; it's not very fun to quest in an area and then try to 'escape'.

I don't think it would be as bad as the Timbermaw Tunnel you referenced (I didn't quote it directly, trying to keep this short), the enemies wouldn't be packed in anywhere near that tight nor would it be that claustrophobic to travel in.

I understand what you're getting at, you don't want a zone that's impossible to get around in. I'd make sure the mobs aren't too thick, because I agree with you; it's no fun to quest in an area, go to turn it in, and have to fight all the way back out. I honestly want, as kalyynthefailadin touched on, to have the zone more about tranquility and the reclamation of the city by nature. But it would be a pointless zone if there wasn't something to do inside it.

Also, I'm not trying to be rude or flame you in any way, sorry if it seems like it.

Nah, I didn't get that impression at all, you're cool. I just didn't quite understand what you were saying/asking. Thanks for clearing it up.

By lore (more like my personal judgement) the undead holding the Ghostlands by now (in a time frame sense) should of been pushed south into the Plaguelands. By saying the sinkhole leads to Deatholme you're suggesting the Blood Elves have left a particularly powerful enemy bastion alive whilst they went fighting to the Sunwell and beyond (as their story started in 2.0). Just strikes me as illogical.

I agree, the Blood Elves wouldn't leave such an outpost unmolested, especially since the Blood Elf responsible for the fall of Quel'Thalas, Dar'Khan Drathir, hangs out there. However, I don't think Blizzard intends to update Ghostlands (or any of the TBC content), though I certainly hope they do.

For the sake of this discussion, let's say the Elves did drive the undead out of Deatholme (ignoring what changes it makes to the structure of Ghostlands). An easy change is to convert the sinkhole from a path to simply a tunnel where the undead have retreated. Perhaps it leads to a small underground questing zone itself. Either way, it's a refuge of the undead and would need to be cleansed or sealed up.

I'm thinking a revision of the original post is warranted, and I'll make that change when I do. Thanks for sharing your thought on this matter; I left a few holes in the design and you guys are spotting them.

Anyway, as far as the alliance camps go, I've always thought Danath should reclaim the highlands, repair the wall, and have a good 'ol fashion standoff with the horde, the wall preventing either faction from advancing, creating a check-mate sort of situation. This is sort of reinforced by the introduction Dwarf Shamans. The fact that the Aerie Peak Dwarves are joining (or at least training) alliance members indicates something has gone on, perhaps Aerie Peak will fall (who knows).

Yep, that's my view as well; Arathi Highlands is the Historical center of the Human World, the original Human kingdom. It's kind of shameful that their only real positions within it are a gravel pit (Refuge point) and a ruined corner of a hostile area (Stromgarde). I would like to see the area revamped, and I have tentative plans to do so in the future.

With the battle of Undercity, the elimination of Southshore, and now the trouble within Gilneas, the Alliance is probably looking at Lordaeron as a pot ready to boil over. They'd push to fortify their positions, and Thoradin's Wall serves as a great defensive barrier against the Forsaken. Keep in mind that the Wetlands may also be changing dramatically, so Thandol Span is another defensive Barrier against the Dragonkin that are sure to come roaring out of Grim Batol. In other words, it's a position they can hunker down in, and with Stromgarde having a valuable port, it makes perfect sense to reclaim that city.

Hinterlands is identified on this map as getting a "Low Overhaul". I agree that Aerie Peak needs a revamp, for better or for worse, but I don't think it's in the cards.

But yeah, just discussing the concept here has me interested in doing Arathi soon. However, that's a Blizzard Brand® "Soon™", due to constraints on my free time and general creative whims.

I do love how you've used the little areas above the plaguelands, and I can't say I have any complaints about that; and I do hope blizzard uses some, I'd love to have some ruins that are "out in the world". Dire Maul still remains one of my favorite zones because of this, and having a lush overgrown ruin emerge from a bastion of evil would be just freaking fantastic.

Dire Maul is one of my favorite instances, and a perfect example of what we need more of; it's a huge maze of ancient tunnels. I'm seriously at odds with Blizzard's latest "15 minute dungeons", I think they're far too linear and dull. I'm not saying we need to make every dungeon a DM or BRD, but it would be nice to have some areas like that. Maybe there's room to implement a new type of instance... Dungeon > Adventure Dungeon > Heroic > Raid?

That being said, and I know that certainly wasn't EVERY idea you had, I would like to see Slaughter Square with perhaps some mini-boss in it. I've forgotten exactly why, but I know it's very sacred ground to the Scourge, particularly the runed circle in the building. Might be important to holding up moral for the Cult or something - perhaps a quest to defeat said mini-boss and cleanse it.

In an early draft, I had considered having the "Echo of Rivendare" there as a 'boss' of the zone, but for whatever reason he didn't carry over. I'm planning to do a revision, so I'll definitely keep that area in mind.

I didn't quite get what you answered but i had already read about those suggestions and have seen screenshots of that night elvish tower thingy, tho i've never been there.

Yeah, I kind of hung my answer on your "Something else going on in the Plaguelands" comment, showing how there was something going on, just not in EPL or related to what we were saying. Like I said, I was sort of mentally wandering .

Anyway what i was originally trying to say is that Chromie could be there in the new 4.0 Stratholme to send you to the older 1.0/level 60 dungeon (don't think you could do away whith that completely - like somebody already said dungeons are are very "precious").

I said that; "instances are too valuable to throw away completely," and I stand by that; there should be a way to keep the original Stratholme in-game. We've had your Chromie suggestion as well as an 'orb' and a new NPC in Caverns of Time that allows players to teleport to the dungeon.

And since he(she?)'s already there why not add some story line (trough quests) on why you must go back back to Stratholme again? Maybe destroying a bastion of the Scourge was actually really important? Or there are some remnants of the CoT battle (you didn't get to the infinite in time! Oh Noes!), so you must go back back in time once again to do the cleaning :P

Maybe, but I think the people who like Stratholme as it is (all 4 of them ;D) would want it to remain pure. One possibility is having the old Stratholme exist as a 'warning', with an NPC teleporting you back in time (or into a memory) to show you what can happen when power corrupts.

I dunno. I agree that it should stay, but the loot is rubbish and the encounters are somewhat silly by current standards, so other than nostalgia, keeping it 100% as is would be kind of pointless. Revamping the loot and lowering the level of the dungeon might work, and serve as another reason for players to actually head to the green version of Stratholme; to get at this revamped instance for loot.

Thanks again to everyone who has been sticking with this thread, and to everyone reading it for the first time. I'm planning on doing some minor tweaks to the original post in the near future, I'll be sure to post when the update takes place.

[Vitamens]

VERY GREAT READ... Love the idea... I also love the concept of closure to Strat.. I hated the first dungeon, loved
the revamp in The Culling, and think bringing in the CC to bring some life to the plaguelands again would be an
awesome ending (or beginning) to plaguelands in Cata... Personally loved questing in WPL and would love to see the Strat area phased out for some upper lvl (CC) 80-85 quests..

Keep the ideas coming.

[Retrogames]

First, a quick thanks to Rhozik for the compliment. It looks like we now have Cataclysm forum Moderators, so a quick hello to Bahumut5, Elementium, and MushroomBomb. Thanks for not deleting my threads... yet :

Updates:
I've updated the original post to reflect a few of the changes mentioned or suggested by readers. This includes...

- Moved the Introduction to after the title and teaser image, to make it a little cleaner.

- Made the section titles more visible.

- Created a new thread to discuss a sister project, North Lordaeron. I decided on a new thread rather than building onto this one because there's actually a lot I want to add to both and ramming them together seems like it would get unwieldy. Because I lack the foresight to reserve the second post in the thread, I'm going to have to try to keep everything situated in a single post.

- Added a link to a new map showing where Stratholme fits into the world at large.

- Changed the original map to a thumbnail, so it doesn't break frames or require scrolling anymore. Yay.

- Updated the "Points of Interest" section to address several reader comments, most notably Totle's post regarding the Scarlets' departure from the Bastion and Evenfall's comments on where the "Stratholme Sinkhole" leads.

- Cleaned up a few of the Quests and added a few more. I intend to add a few more in the near future, but I've been occupied with the aforementioned North Lordaeron thread.

- Added a new Enemy Appearance / Location Map to address Daladris's concerns. This map shows the general location of each enemy type, as well as including better visuals (in place of just providing remote links to pictures).

- Added "(Non-aggressive)" to two of the enemy descriptions to show that those specific mobs are completely passive unless attacked. I will likely expand the enemy descriptions in my next update.

- And last but not least, added some Legal Notes at the suggestion of Dalladubb. Vain as it is to believe it could be used by Blizzard, I have added this small release in the event that somebody stumbles across it and likes the idea.

More updates, both to this and the North Lordaeron thread tomorrow. Thanks for reading!

[Wezagred]

Why haven't I seen this before.
Absolutely great idea man, keep this up.

[Sollace]

Wow your ideas in both your threads are incredible to say the least. I think they would fit perfectly into lore and the game world if implemented right. Please tell me you have posted your ideas on the official forums. It would be a shame if they were never seen by blizzard because i think this is the type of thing that deserves implementing.

[willjones410]

With the Lich King going down and the Scourge going under new reigns *cough* I really see no need for Scholomance and Stratholme to remain as instances. Can't say I care much what happens to Scholo. Board it up, seal it off, leave it forgotten for all I can. Maybe in a hundred years of WoW time another adventuring party can go down there looking for treasure.

Stratholme though? I really, really would like to see that place cleaned up and made into a working town again, a place that the members of the Argent Crusade could come home to from Northrend. Think of it. With Arthas dead, the fires should go out, the Scourge there should all be gone, and hey! Where was Baron Rivendare as far as Wrath of the Lich King goes? He sure wasn't in some slaughterhouse in Strat! Also consider that the Scarlet Crusade is pretty much history, so Live Side should be as well.

This is one of the reasons I'm hoping that not only these two, but all old world dungeons and raids are being revamped with new quests at the very least. Reskinning on some should be neccessary, such as Stratholme, to make it a livable place again.

Great Post, and a great idea! Thanks for sharing!

[shax0r]

ever thought of applying for a job as game-designer?
it is god damn awesome.

[Gamevizier]

I totally back this up

[LavaDuck]

I could totally see this ingame one day in the future.

Seal of approval

[Retrogames]

Another round of Thanks to Wezagred, banestalker, and LavaDuck. I honestly expected at least one trolling attempt by now, but maybe the Wall-of-text insta-gibs them? Either way, on to the comments...

Please tell me you have posted your ideas on the official forums. It would be a shame if they were never seen by blizzard because i think this is the type of thing that deserves implementing.

At this time, I haven't posted them to the WoW Official Forums. Partially because I feel like I still need to tweak them (for example, the update from Yesterday filled in a lot of holes I had left open), and partially because I know what kind of behavior is rampant over there and I know exactly how much good it would do. If anybody wants to post a link though, I wouldn't mind in the slightest. I do ask that it be posted here so everyone can follow along with the discussion.

Can't say I care much what happens to Scholo. Board it up, seal it off, leave it forgotten for all I can.

To be fair, Scholo is sort of a great place too, it just suffers from Blizzard's old design choices. Most notably having a long quest chain for the key, a brutal first room, the single-use Viewing Room key (preceded by gobs and gobs of dragon whelp trash), and multiple trash-filled rooms and scab-bosses required to even summon the Last boss. It's just a poorly laid out place, but oozing with character.

I'm not sure what will happen with it, but I don't feel there's much you can overhaul in there aside from the mobs. The layout is pretty much stuck as it is because it's all underground. I've always liked the idea behind scholo, but I'm with you; I've spent too much time in there to enjoy revisiting it any time soon.

Stratholme though? I really, really would like to see that place cleaned up and made into a working town again, a place that the members of the Argent Crusade could come home to from Northrend.

That's actually a reasonable point, and perhaps that can be part of the "Strath: Renewed" story arc. All of these battered and bruised soldiers of the Crusade return from their long battle in Northrend, hoping to settle down and enjoy the peace they've rightfully earned. But when they arrive in Stratholme, they find that a bunch of tree-hugging Druids have moved in and turned the place into their own personal arboretum without even asking.

There could be some additional quests added that sort of underline this political angle, which has some measure of historical authenticity. Some internal strife within both the Roman Empire and the fledgling American Empire was caused by soldiers who were promised land for their services but either never received it or found it undesirable (For example, much of the land granted to Revolutionary War soldiers was on the very border of hostile American Indian country).

It might even be worth considering how Varian Wrynn might look upon the 'illegal seizure' of 'rightful human territory', and how the Druids might end up looking to the shamanistic Horde for defense. I'm not saying Stratholme would become Horde centric, but maybe it's just one more political hotspot to play with.

ever thought of applying for a job as game-designer?

Very much so.

Without making an enormous story out of it, I was in college (many moons ago) for a degree in "Interactive Media" which turned out to have nothing to do with interactivity (it was a glorified Graphic Design program with some Web Design tacked on). I reached a point where I had to decide whether to take out loans or drop out; up until that point I had paid my way, but attending classes and working full time had me drifting on 8 hours of sleep a week.

I decided to drop out, and though I've regretted it a few times since (a degree is nice just to show you can finish something, nevermind what it's for), I don't feel like I'd be much better off with it; most of my classmates ended up not going anywhere with their degrees either (I ran into one on a trip home for Christmas, she was a cashier at the local grocery store).

At this point, I'm waiting for the economy to improve a bit before I get myself committed to student loans, and carefully choosing which school I go to (and yes, I lack the self-motivation to educate myself, I've tried). In the meantime, I've been trying to participate in several IGDA events and meetings, participate in design challenges and contests, and keep poking at any ideas that spark my imagination. Lately, however, I've just been using it as an escape from my job search (Yep, I'm unemployed).

Heh, longest response to a short question ever. I'm looking forward to more responses, and hope to have a few more details up in the North Lordaeron thread. Thanks for reading!

[Wragnorok]

As with your Northern Lordaeron reinvention concept, this is very well thought-out. In an effort to be helpful, I have given some thought to one of the issues that another reader has raised: the 'one-way' nature of the zone. While one solution is certainly to reduce mob density, this runs the risk of creating a supply-demand problem for kill-quest or drop-quest mobs, as well as making the zone itself feel sparse. My thought was that, since what we see of Stratholme is just that part of the city that faces the central squares, it can safely be inferred that there are likely other buildings that pack in some of the gaps between the various 'arms' of the city.

What if you created one or two relatively safe passages back through these buildings that not only spare you having to fight your way, but actually present a flat travel time cut in the form of a straighter road between the deeper parts of the zone and the entrance than the current topography allows? Furthermore, you can make sure characters are aware of it by kicking off the quest chains in deeper parts of the zone with a quest that involves clearing out said passageway(s), which phase into a permanently clear version once the quest is turned in.

Vis-a-vis your request to see some of my design concepts, I'll go digging around my drive and see if I can recover any of those old documents, which I will then send you via PM.

Good work.

[Retrogames]

In an effort to be helpful, I have given some thought to one of the issues that another reader has raised: the 'one-way' nature of the zone. . . What if you created one or two relatively safe passages back through these buildings that not only spare you having to fight your way, but actually present a flat travel time cut in the form of a straighter road between the deeper parts of the zone and the entrance than the current topography allows?

That's a much better solution, and one that makes a lot of sense given what we know about Strath (it's likely falling apart and burned down to the beams and joists) and what I've written into the description (several of the buildings have had interiors added).

I will likely add appropriate text to imply that there are several shortcuts throughout the city, be it back alleys, leaping from building to building via gaps in the walls, or even the rooftops in a few places. I think that's a bit too much detail to try to add to the map, because all of those passages could get sloppy quick.

I added a note with the last update about the interiors from Culling of Stratholme being accessible, though it won't fit into the original Stratholme map no matter how I fiddled with it. I've been thinking I might work on a new map, "Stratholme Interiors", showing the general layout of the Culling section and the sewers connecting the Sinkhole to Banewood Marsh. There's no reason I couldn't throw a copy of the map in there too, and just draw a few lines to show where the interiors form a safe passage.

Something for tomorrow, I'm guessing,but if I sneak it on late tonight don't be surprised. ;D

Vis-a-vis your request to see some of my design concepts, I'll go digging around my drive and see if I can recover any of those old documents, which I will then send you via PM.

Awesome, I'll be watching for it!

[Hoopdreams]

I don't know if this has been said already, but I think it would be awesome if they phased it, as they did with the ebon blade quests in Icecrown. So as you continue on you eventually capture all of Stratholme and have another neutral city ran by the cenarian circle.

[Xerdux]

This idea is awesome but unfortunaly I dont think its likely that Blizzard will make completly new areas in northern Lordaeron. Most likely they will feel those areas with mountains and a couple of trees.
Stratholme should stop burning however and begin to exist in the physical world. Im sure that there will be some renegade undead (like forsaken apothecaries trying to break havoc) etc that can be there. The sewer/crypts ideas is great.

[Racer]

Eager to see those sewers updates :P

Any ETA?

[Retrogames]

I don't know if this has been said already, but I think it would be awesome if they phased it, as they did with the ebon blade quests in Icecrown. So as you continue on you eventually capture all of Stratholme and have another neutral city ran by the cenarian circle.

I hadn't planned to phase it, because the Cenarion have already been hard at work regrowing the city by the time you get there. I realize it plays with the timing, but we can assume that Rayne and Rimbalt have just been 'behind the scenes' for the last year or so.

Phasing used as you progress will only make the area greener, which is nice but serves no purpose. I am content to use Phasing elsewhere where the usage is much more noticeable.

Eager to see those sewers updates :P

Any ETA?

I've been busy over the weekend (when you're unemployed, the weekends are busier.. heh), but I'm planning on hitting it hard tonight and tomorrow. I can give you a general preview though...

The sewer is accessible from three areas in the city; the sinkhole, the secret passage (seen in the Culling of Stratholme), and through a hole inside the Scarlet Bastion's basement. The sewer itself leads all over the city, and there will be gated holes in places so you can look down/out.

Parts of the sewer will have broken into the crypts beneath Stratholme, so there are lots of little rooms to find and hunt around in. One of these crypts will feature the reappearance of a familiar face, hunting around for something she needs to put right what once went wrong...

One area that will connect to the sewers is the Stratholme Aqueduct. Something is causing the water supply within the city to remain tainted, so players will have to climb into the waterworks from the sewers, out onto the Aqueduct (high above Pinewood Canyon) and to the old Pumphouse, where... well, we'll get to that.

Finally, the sewers will connect to the Banewood Marshes in the North Lordaeron Map.

I hope to have that and an update to the enemies list posted before Monday Night. I'm also tinkering with another Reinvention concept, but it's very early in the planning stages.