would our shadow 4 set change our starting rotation?

[Grath]

since my MF will be like 1.9 second cast time unbuffed with 4 set would it be better to do

MB MF VT DP SWP as start rotation since gettin SW stacks is alot quicker?

[Worshaka]

since my MF will be like 1.9 second cast time unbuffed with 4 set would it be better to do

MB MF VT DP SWP as start rotation since gettin SW stacks is alot quicker?

MF x 3
MF x 2
VT, DP, SW:P

this is one of the current standard opening rotations and it would most likely be more appealing with 4pc T10

[Grath]

could u explain why? im pretty sure casting vt with 4 stacks of SW will still count that VT with 5 stacks when it gives u the 5th stack

so MB + MF = 4 sw stacks.. than ure 3 dots will all have 5 stacks

and no MB when its our best dmg dealing ability? are u saying its not better than mf in t10?

[Leafmealone]

From what I gather Grath, there is a possibility that you will be dropping MB from the rotation when you get the 4 piece, it is already behind VT and DP in the priority list for most priests, and with MF becoming very attractive with the 4 piece it drops even further down the list.

I think the only time I would use it whilst wearing 4 set would be if Replenishment was needed.

[Grath]

yeah i read about that.. but i didnt think it was confirmed yet, i understand the meaning behind it but i woulda thought u wouldnt use MB if u had heroism or a haste buff (PI / trinket) cos ud just be almost gcding every cast

[tatienne]

could u explain why? im pretty sure casting vt with 4 stacks of SW will still count that VT with 5 stacks when it gives u the 5th stack

so MB + MF = 4 sw stacks.. than ure 3 dots will all have 5 stacks

and no MB when its our best dmg dealing ability? are u saying its not better than mf in t10?

no, you'll have to apply the buff before applying the dots. MB + MF will leave your first VT at only 8% added shadow damage from SW.

MB + MF2 + MF2 is a unsafe way of doing it if you really like MB though but I doubt it's the fastest way to be on your way with your sustained dps. sw:d if you need to run during the pull is good to think about but not too many pulls requires it these days.

[Weena2]

x=((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay))

Use that forumla it will tell you at what spellpower not casting MF will give you more dps than casting MB.

Personally with my 400 MS i can be half naked and it will still be MF>MB



EDIT: Didn't read the OP properly >.<, hope what i said helps in some way though lol

[fabian]

x=((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay))

Use that forumla it will tell you at what spellpower not casting MF will give you more dps than casting MB.

Personally with my 400 MS i can be half naked and it will still be MF>MB



EDIT: Didn't read the OP properly >.<, hope what i said helps in some way though lol

Where did you get that formula? This is the first time I've seen it posted. Also, could you explain the formula.

[Worshaka]

could u explain why? im pretty sure casting vt with 4 stacks of SW will still count that VT with 5 stacks when it gives u the 5th stack

so MB + MF = 4 sw stacks.. than ure 3 dots will all have 5 stacks

and no MB when its our best dmg dealing ability? are u saying its not better than mf in t10?

Firstly no it doesnt, casting VT with 4 SW stacks means it only has 4 SW stacks applied to the spell, regardless of it building you to max stacks.

Secondly clipping MF at 1 tick is lower DPS than SW, so you might as well clip at 2 stacks which co-incidently builds SW to 5 stacks.

The longer you do the MF channel the higher chance you have procing trinkets that have a 45 sec ICD, meaning those trinket procs apply to your opening dots instead of being missed if they were cast right off the bat.

This is only 1 of 2 accepted opening sequences, the other being VT, MB, DP, MF x 2, SW:P.... personally I use MF x 3, MF x 3, VT, DP, SW:P or VT, MB, DP, MF x 3, SW:P due to my enormous haste rating. I switch between the 2 depending on opening positioning and what's going on for a specific encounter.

[Worshaka]

Where did you get that formula? This is the first time I've seen it posted. Also, could you explain the formula.

It's from a post at shadowpriest.com, however the person refrencing it left out some glaring prereqs

First, that formula assumes 4pc T10, its only applicable to that situation, so using that formula to deduce whether you can drop MB without 4pc T10 is going to give you false information.

Secondly given some base values of lag and reaction time he concluded that you would need around 3800 SP for MF to just eclipse MB... that takes a significant amount of gear and the DPS gain is very small at the expense of losing replenishment.

Therefore it basically suggests to drop MB under the effects of BL and don't worry too much about your normal rotation. There is still more work to be done on this subject however but these sorts of things need to be put in perspective.

[Weena2]

First, that formula assumes 4pc T10, its only applicable to that situation, so using that formula to deduce whether you can drop MB without 4pc T10 is going to give you false information.

I assumed most people would of guess that far considering the name of the thread, but regardless yes you need 4set tier 10 in order to use the forumla correctly

Secondly given some base values of lag and reaction time he concluded that you would need around 3800 SP for MF to just eclipse MB... that takes a significant amount of gear and the DPS gain is very small at the expense of losing replenishment.

Put your own values in the forumla and the results come out rather different compared to others. Its basically stated that the more MS/Latency you have, the less spellpower is needed in order to drop MB from the rotation. I play from Australia meaning my latency is at 400 constantly, using the forumla it says i need alot less than 3.8k to drop MB. If you live right next door to the blizzard exchange wherever it may be and your MS is at 5, then you will need alot of spellpower in order to drop MB, probably more than you will be able to get.

Its important to note as well as worshaka said that you bring replenishment. If you are the only person or one of two people in your raid that brings it make your you MB at least once every 15seconds. I know i will have to do so and if you make a hunter go survival or something along those lines in order to gain a small personal dps, well thats a rather dumb thing to do.

[jonish]

It's from a post at shadowpriest.com, however the person refrencing it left out some glaring prereqs

First, that formula assumes 4pc T10, its only applicable to that situation, so using that formula to deduce whether you can drop MB without 4pc T10 is going to give you false information.

Secondly given some base values of lag and reaction time he concluded that you would need around 3800 SP for MF to just eclipse MB... that takes a significant amount of gear and the DPS gain is very small at the expense of losing replenishment.

Therefore it basically suggests to drop MB under the effects of BL and don't worry too much about your normal rotation. There is still more work to be done on this subject however but these sorts of things need to be put in perspective.

i open with mind blast and SWDeath then a mind flay for weaving stacks then I DoT. Doing it this way procs both my trinkets and my ring along with black magic every single time. Doing all this then casting my dots provides 5 stack weaving and trinket/rings procs on your first set of dots almost 100% guaranteed.

[Strykie]

MB MF DP.
Best opening rotation.

[Worshaka]

MB MF DP.
Best opening rotation.

That one has merit... at the end of the day what you do for the opening 3-4 seconds is hardly going to make a significant impact on a 5min encounter (exception: casting SW:P before max stacks of SW).

I guess you can boil down the opening sequence to two philosophies...

1. Keep it as close to the standard priority as possible, skipping SW:P until 5 SW.
2. Get to 5 stacks of SW as quickly as possible and then commence the priority.

I think either are valid, the most important thing being, do not cast SW:P until 5 stacks of SW.

[Dreamtail]

since you usually have to get into position why not
MFx3
sw D
DP
SWP
since that lets you do 3 instants while you move to where you need to be at for the particular fight

[Griemak]

Hello, I believe the formula posted in this thread is from a post I have been involved with over at shadowpriest.com and thought I would take the time to register to explain it a little further.

First, that formula assumes 4pc T10, its only applicable to that situation, so using that formula to deduce whether you can drop MB without 4pc T10 is going to give you false information.

This is incorrect, the formula itself does not take the 4 piece bonus into effect. This formula can be used for any instance of MF and MB with today's glyphs, talents, raid buffs, and target debuffs. If, in the future, any ability is added to the game that affects MF damage output and not MB's (or vice-versa), then the formula will be incorrect. Because the cast time is not "locked" into the formula, it is not only in reference to the 4pT10 bonus and can be used on non 4pT10 bonus wearing shadow priests.

since my MF will be like 1.9 second cast time unbuffed with 4 set would it be better to do

MB MF VT DP SWP as start rotation since gettin SW stacks is alot quicker?

Opening with MB is not advisable. Opening with any cooldown spell is not advisable, actually. Misery is not yet on the target and if you are not glaringly geared over hit cap, you have a 3% or so miss chance on your first spell. Is it ground breaking? Will you not make a raid spot because of it? No, of course not. It is just a small action to walk on the path of certainity, nothing else. It's not "wrong", nor "worse", just an option with different downsides compared to others.

Opening with a Misery causing spell is advisable. These are VT, SW:P, and MF.
-SW:P is insta-cast, an excellent first spell to cast while "running in" as it sets up 10% buff for MB and 20% for MF. If one GCD doesn't fill your run time, Shadowfiend, SW, and DP can fill the next spots.
-VT is one of our highest damage causing per time to execute abilities. Getting this started early can not hurt. This used to be an easy call when MF took 2.5 seconds or longer to cast and we lost a tick at the end of 6 minutes to compare whether or not the extra stacks of shadow weaving was worth it. I think this is the direction the discussion should go, delaying casting of VT and DP will cause less possible dot ticks per fight, does the stacking of shadow weaving prior to their cast make up for any "lost ticks" later in the fight?
-MF the new best first cast when not running to meet the engagement? Perhaps. It sets up Misery and stacks shadow weaving faster than any other ability. Base form, 3 stacks in 2.49 seconds.

More on priority:

With 2pT9 and no crypt fever up on the target (unholy DK): VT-DP-MB-MF
With 2pT9 and crypt fever up on the target (unholy DK): DP-VT-MB-MF
With 4pT10 regardless of crypt fever: DP-VT-MB-MF ****
**** MF overtakes MB in priority depending on haste, spell power, and delay. The formula above can be used to "dial in" what spell power is needed for your shadow priest based on it's current haste level and the delay caused by your internet conection, fat fingers, spaced out brain, and any thing else that can cause delay (I guess positive things can cause delay as well... I guess)

spellpower-needed-to-drop-MB=
((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay)))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay)))

w/ 4pT10 bonus:
haste% = ((1 + (haste on gear / 3279)) * 1.03 * 1.05) - 1
MBcast = 1.5 / (1 + haste%)
MFcast = 2.49 / (1 + haste%)
delay=in whole seconds, latency in game is mili-seconds. 100 ms = 0.1 seconds. Add the latency you usually run with in an instance to server latency. Quartz determines this value every cast. A "safe" server latency is between 50 and 100 ms. Also add UI, finger, and brain lag. The average default "delay" in sims hovers near 0.140. Tweak to your delight.

w/o 4pT10 bonus:
haste% = ((1 + (haste on gear / 3279)) * 1.03 * 1.05) - 1
MBcast = 1.5 / (1 + haste%)
MFcast = 3.0 / (1 + haste%)
delay=in whole seconds, latency in game is mili-seconds. 100 ms = 0.1 seconds. Add the latency you usually run with in an instance to server latency. Quartz determines this value every cast. A "safe" server latency is between 50 and 100 ms. Also add UI, finger, and brain lag. The average default "delay" in sims hovers near 0.140. Tweak to your delight.

Using the above formula, I made a simple table based on a few delay points:

The first column is made using a delay of 0.05 seconds. This is not a realistic delay. However, this is a "safe" spell power number. Because your delay will almost always be greater than 50ms, the first column can be used as a "no loss ever" guideline to drop MB. HR is haste rating from gear, the resulting spell power includes 8.15% haste from raid buffs. Troll racial, engineering gloves, potion of speed, trinkets, and Heroism/Bloodlust are NOT included in the below table.

Haste: 0.05 - 0.075 - 0.1 - 0.15 - 0.2 - 0.25
1200: 4439 - 4236 - 4054 - 3741 - 3480 - 3259
1190: 4440 - 4238 - 4056 - 3742 - 3482 - 3261
1180: 4441 - 4239 - 4057 - 3744 - 3484 - 3264
1170: 4442 - 4240 - 4059 - 3746 - 3486 - 3266
1160: 4443 - 4241 - 4060 - 3748 - 3488 - 3268
1150: 4444 - 4243 - 4062 - 3750 - 3490 - 3271
1140: 4444 - 4244 - 4064 - 3752 - 3492 - 3273
1130: 4445 - 4245 - 4065 - 3754 - 3495 - 3275
1120: 4446 - 4247 - 4067 - 3756 - 3497 - 3277
1110: 4447 - 4248 - 4068 - 3758 - 3499 - 3280
1100: 4448 - 4249 - 4070 - 3760 - 3501 - 3282
1090: 4449 - 4250 - 4071 - 3762 - 3503 - 3284
1080: 4450 - 4252 - 4073 - 3764 - 3505 - 3287
1070: 4451 - 4253 - 4074 - 3766 - 3508 - 3289
1060: 4452 - 4254 - 4076 - 3767 - 3510 - 3291
1050: 4453 - 4256 - 4078 - 3769 - 3512 - 3294
1040: 4454 - 4257 - 4079 - 3771 - 3514 - 3296
1030: 4455 - 4258 - 4081 - 3773 - 3516 - 3298
1020: 4456 - 4260 - 4082 - 3775 - 3519 - 3301
1010: 4457 - 4261 - 4084 - 3777 - 3521 - 3303
1000: 4458 - 4262 - 4085 - 3779 - 3523 - 3305
990: 4459 - 4263 - 4087 - 3781 - 3525 - 3308
980: 4460 - 4265 - 4089 - 3783 - 3527 - 3310
970: 4461 - 4266 - 4090 - 3785 - 3530 - 3312
960: 4462 - 4267 - 4092 - 3787 - 3532 - 3315
950: 4463 - 4269 - 4093 - 3789 - 3534 - 3317
940: 4464 - 4270 - 4095 - 3791 - 3536 - 3320
930: 4465 - 4271 - 4096 - 3793 - 3538 - 3322
920: 4466 - 4273 - 4098 - 3795 - 3541 - 3324
910: 4467 - 4274 - 4100 - 3797 - 3543 - 3327
900: 4468 - 4275 - 4101 - 3799 - 3545 - 3329
890: 4469 - 4277 - 4103 - 3801 - 3547 - 3331
880: 4470 - 4278 - 4104 - 3803 - 3550 - 3334
870: 4471 - 4279 - 4106 - 3805 - 3552 - 3336
860: 4472 - 4280 - 4108 - 3807 - 3554 - 3339
850: 4472 - 4282 - 4109 - 3809 - 3556 - 3341
840: 4473 - 4283 - 4111 - 3811 - 3559 - 3344
830: 4474 - 4284 - 4112 - 3813 - 3561 - 3346
820: 4475 - 4286 - 4114 - 3815 - 3563 - 3348
810: 4476 - 4287 - 4116 - 3817 - 3565 - 3351
800: 4477 - 4288 - 4117 - 3819 - 3568 - 3353
790: 4478 - 4290 - 4119 - 3821 - 3570 - 3356
780: 4479 - 4291 - 4120 - 3823 - 3572 - 3358
770: 4480 - 4292 - 4122 - 3825 - 3574 - 3361
760: 4481 - 4294 - 4124 - 3827 - 3577 - 3363
750: 4482 - 4295 - 4125 - 3829 - 3579 - 3365
740: 4483 - 4296 - 4127 - 3831 - 3581 - 3368
730: 4484 - 4298 - 4128 - 3833 - 3584 - 3370
720: 4485 - 4299 - 4130 - 3835 - 3586 - 3373
710: 4486 - 4300 - 4132 - 3837 - 3588 - 3375
700: 4487 - 4302 - 4133 - 3839 - 3590 - 3378
690: 4488 - 4303 - 4135 - 3841 - 3593 - 3380
680: 4489 - 4304 - 4136 - 3843 - 3595 - 3383
670: 4490 - 4306 - 4138 - 3845 - 3597 - 3385
660: 4491 - 4307 - 4140 - 3847 - 3600 - 3388
650: 4492 - 4308 - 4141 - 3849 - 3602 - 3390

More here.

What interests me is the fact that opening with MF3-MF2 or MF3-MB used to be inferior, because the delay in casting VT and DP was enough to loose one tick of both and the gain in shadow weaving stacks for the first cast's worth of ticks was LESS than one tick at the end of the fight. I believe this may no longer be true. 1. the damage has increased, so 10% is much more than it used to be and 2. the MF cast time is so tight now that less possible ticks are lost, in reference to 4pT10. Without 4pT10, MF cast = dot tick, they are both based on haste with a 3.0 second base time. How much damage is gained from stacking full shadow weave for the first cast of VT and DP and is it more than the possible damage lost to delaying their cast? I think this answers the opener question.

[harky]

We need more people with first posts like that. Very nice information.

[Worshaka]

This is incorrect, the formula itself does not take the 4 piece bonus into effect. This formula can be used for any instance of MF and MB with today's glyphs, talents, raid buffs, and target debuffs.

Here is the thread in question and what part of "This applies ONLY to 4piece Tier 10 bonus reducing MF base cast time by 0.51 seconds." in that thread suggests your claim above is correct?

Opening with MB is not advisable. Opening with any cooldown spell is not advisable, actually. Misery is not yet on the target and if you are not glaringly geared over hit cap, you have a 3% or so miss chance on your first spell. Is it ground breaking? Will you not make a raid spot because of it? No, of course not. It is just a small action to walk on the path of certainity, nothing else. It's not "wrong", nor "worse", just an option with different downsides compared to others.

I like that reasoning, I still feel that MF x 3, MF x 2 is a good way to start to proc 45 sec ICD trinkets and give a platform to be able to use any on use abilities immediately.

More on priority:

With 2pT9 and no crypt fever up on the target (unholy DK): VT-DP-MB-MF
With 2pT9 and crypt fever up on the target (unholy DK): DP-VT-MB-MF
With 4pT10 regardless of crypt fever: DP-VT-MB-MF ****

You're going to have to show some numbers on this... even with crypt fever DP damage doesn't even come close to VT damage and delaying the shorter duration of the 2 DoTs has a greater effect on lost DPS than a larger duration DoT. This was seen back in 3.2 where MB was a higher priority than VT even though its DPEt was far below that of VT. The entire reasoning was that delaying a 7 sec DPS cycle by 1.5 seconds results in a greater DPS loss than delaying a 15sec DPS cycle.

Not to mention that 4pc T10 doesn't even affect DoTs and how that set bonus can change the DoT priority is beyond me.

The rest of what you have to say is fine, however it doesnt quantity how much DPS you gain by dropping MB and keep in mind that dropping MB results in 1 less replenishment proc in your raid. That might be fine if you run with a lot of replenishment classes, however my raid doesnt and I can't quantity a loss of replenishment in my raid for a marginal DPS gain. Not to mention that even I struggle to meet the SP requirement to drop MB at this stage and i'm lucky to be close to BiS for normal ICC loot.

It's on thing to say its ok to drop MB its another to give a DPS figure of what you will gain for doing so.
[/quote]

[fabian]

Here is the thread in question and what part of "This applies ONLY to 4piece Tier 10 bonus reducing MF base cast time by 0.51 seconds." in that thread suggests your claim above is correct?

I think he is referring to the fact that you can use Non-4pc MF cast time in the formula and still get a SP number, but that number is insanely high(mine was around 7k SP) and is impossible to get, so using it with only with the 4pc is advisable.

[Griemak]

The post is for 4pT10 bonus only, not the formula. The formula itself includes the generalized non-bonus variable of:

MFCast+delay

Yes, the link is to a thread I wrote that was specifically tuned to 4pT10, it was a specific post using a generalized equation, the equation is not specific to 4pT10 and is used elsewhere in other topics.

Once 2pT9 is no longer being worn, DP does more damage per execute than VT does, since both have the same time to execute, DP surpasses VT on the priority list. Without 2pT9 -or- with 2pT9 and Crypt Fever active, Devouring Plague is doing more damage per execute than VT, remember, patch 3.3 increased the amount of Improved Devouring Plague.

There is a larger DPS gain to keep DP and VT closer to 100% uptime than MB, they gain priority. DP does more damage per execute time than VT when 2pT9 is no longer worn and Crypt Fever is on the target, the order is DP-VT-MB. If you have to choose between all 3 what to do over the next 1.2 seconds, your total damage done on the fight will be higher if you choose DP first.

4pT10 has nothing to do with changing the priority, the priority changed with 3.3 and this site's sticky was not updated. The sticky answers this question, btw, spell power coeefecient. As spell power rose, certain spells became more powerful than others, VT and DP rose in power at an accelerated rate relative to MB. With VT and DP being affected by haste, the dots not only raised the priority setting variable of DPEt, but conveniently rose DPS as well. 3.3 also increase the amount of Improved Devouring Plague. With Crypt Fever active, this increase and the increase in our average spell power through gear upgrades has bumped DP over VT. However, without Crypt Fever and still obtaining the 2pT9 bonus, VT is over DP. MB has fallen, while we enjoyed its strict cooldown management for a ~100 dps gain throughout Tier 8 and Tier 9, it is nothing but fluff in Tier 10. With hasted dots, their more frequent refresh and DPE superiority by nearly 10,000 can no longer justify MB being held to strict cooldown management, the dots are more important.

The dps gain of dropping Mind Blast will raise as your spell power separates further away from the amount that allows MF and MB to be equal in DPEt. The quantity of gain can be reversed engineered into DPS difference:
((1020*(MFcast+delay))-(679.14*(MBcast+delay)))/((1.0240807*(MBcast+delay))-(0.492775*(MFcast+delay)))

Take MF DPS - MB DPS

(679.14+1.0240807x/MFcast+delay) - (1020+.492775x/MBcast+delay) where x = spell power

The spell power listed is where MF overtakes MB, it can be as close as .01 DPS for this to be true. I don't know if anyone ever claimed it would be earth moving, I think most who are looking for this just want less complexity in their rotation. It appears as if BiS 277 will be close to
1152 haste and 4200+ spell power, though the set has not been built yet, so these are approximations.

Haste= 1152/32.79 * 8.15% = 46.15
2.49/1.4615 = 1.70 MF cast
1.5/1.4615 = 1.03 MB cast
average delay used by sims is 0.140

(679.14+1.0240807(4200)/(1.84) - (1020+.492775(4200)/1.17)
3016.71 - 2788.94 = a gain of 227.78 dps... don't fall out of your chair. I don't think anyone ever claimed it would be ground breaking and if you follow my posts, I'm against the urge and want for people to find a way to drop MB. Though do take note, as the "delay" rises, the DPS gain in dropping MB does as well. While delay is not good, it is something we all live with at varying levels.

Casting MB while VT is active once per 15 seconds still leaves Replenishment active, both worlds can be together. A minimal DPS gain can be had by casting MB after a VT refresh, or once every 12 seconds, etc. instead of strict cooldown management. MF is the better spell at certain haste and spell power levels (refer to 4pT10 chart above). DP + IDP does more damage than VT with crypt fever (4pT10: DP + IDP does more damage than VT with or without crypt fever, not because 4pT10 affects dots, but because you can't have 2pT9 when you have 4pT10). VT does more damage than MF.

4pT10 Priority Spell Order with "Drop MB Requirements" Met: DP-VT-*Replenishment*-MF
*Replenishment* optional

Should the opener follow the spell priority? NO, it shouldn't. Is MF a better first spell cast than others?