Loot Itemization in ICC10hc

[Litemode]

Dear Blizzard.

You're doing it wrong! (I realize Blue Posters aren't exactly active on these forums, but I couldnt be arsed coming up with a new fancy way of starting off the topic)

I have, ever since you implemented the heroic mode of raid dungeons, been under the impression that your goal with these 2 "modes" were to give raids to the players wanting to casually enjoy the wonders of raiding while still giving those of us who enjoy a challenge something to work with.

So, by your definition heroic mode should be harder than normal mode. Why is it then that ICC25 gives you greater rewards than the ICC10 Heroic mode does? I speak in particular about weapons and trinkets. Cool proccs, and insane itemization is what meets my eye when I look at the ICC25 Normal Loot List. What I see when looking at ICC10Hc are the same items with slightler better stats and an added socket.

Being in a strict 10 man guild we have chosen to not ever participate in current 25 man content. We're very good at what we do(I might even say that we're excellent) but I still feel like the mediocre players doing ICC25 are and will be rewarded handsomely for their "efforts".

This is not me complaining that the gear is too easilly obtainable by doing ICC25, just me asking for some equivalently interesting loot for the ICC10hc mode. Or at least an explanation as to why you're not giving us the chance.


/Lite

[Listorian]

The game was created with the intention of playing with large crowds of people:

Vanilla: 40 man raids, being the max

TBC: 25 man raids, being the max

Wrath: 25 man raids, being the max


People who run 25 man, can still run 10 man. Progression is upwards, thus you could ICC25 and ICCHC10 and then gear up towards ICCHC25.

[Belajas]

So basically youre asking ICC25hm equivalent loot into ICC10hm just because its a hm...

Its clear, 10n < 10hm = 25n < 25hm...

Who would do 25 hardmodes if you could get same stage loot from 10 mans...

edit: and its not about effort in the instance, its for the effort that you gather 2,5x as many people to do it as some purely 10m guild...

[Deleted]

So basically youre asking ICC25hm equivalent loot into ICC10hm just because its a hm...

Its clear, 10n < 10hm = 25n < 25hm...

Who would do 25 hardmodes if you could get same stage loot from 10 mans...

Difficulty wise, they could(should) be tuned the same.

Make 25 man drop 6-7 items thus allowing people to gear up faster by doing 25's. There's really no need for 10's to have lesser loot as they can be tuned just as hard as 25's.

[Litemode]

So basically youre asking ICC25hm equivalent loot into ICC10hm just because its a hm...

Its clear, 10n < 10hm = 25n < 25hm...

Who would do 25 hardmodes if you could get same stage loot from 10 mans...

edit: and its not about effort in the instance, its for the effort that you gather 2,5x as many people to do it as some purely 10m guild...

No. that is not what I am asking.

-> 10n < 25 < 10hc < 25 hc

I do not ask for gear equivalent to 25hc. I ask for gear appropriate for the above mentioned difficulty scale. I would even settle for getting item equivalents to Nibelung, Zod's Repeating Longbow and other items that have some sort of interesting procc.

[Khy]

Its not about how hard it is, its about the number of people putting in the effort. And it is alot harder to get 25 people that are good at what they do than it is 10 people. I can get 2x 10 man ICC going with my guild, but getting those 5 extra people to show up is a total pain in the rear. As a Guild/Raid Leader I would say that 25 man is definitely where the better gear should be. BUT! A little something for you all to think about is. You get 2 badges per boss no matter what difficulty. So someone clearing 10 man is going to get loot faster than someone struggling in both 10 and 25 man Festergut... just saying Not that I have that issue.... /sigh

Just to add...
I do agree with the 10 > 25 > 10Hm > 25Hm
Just try getting the developers to make 4 different iLevels is probably futile...

[Deleted]

So basically youre asking ICC25hm equivalent loot into ICC10hm just because its a hm...

Its clear, 10n < 10hm = 25n < 25hm...

Who would do 25 hardmodes if you could get same stage loot from 10 mans...

edit: and its not about effort in the instance, its for the effort that you gather 2,5x as many people to do it as some purely 10m guild...

Cause everyone only cares about the loot, not about the encounters? Oh wait...

[DomBomb1]

Its not about how hard it is, its about the number of people putting in the effort. And it is alot harder to get 25 people that are good at what they do than it is 10 people. I can get 2x 10 man ICC going with my guild, but getting those 5 extra people to show up is a total pain in the rear. As a Guild/Raid Leader I would say that 25 man is definitely where the better gear should be. BUT! A little something for you all to think about is. You get 2 badges per boss no matter what difficulty. So someone clearing 10 man is going to get loot faster than someone struggling in both 10 and 25 man Festergut... just saying Not that I have that issue.... /sigh

Just to add...
I do agree with the 10 > 25 > 10Hm > 25Hm
Just try getting the developers to make 4 different iLevels is probably futile...

Wait, so you're saying you should be rewarded for finding 5 extra people, not for being a better player? /sigh

Also, who said they need 4 different ilvls to make 10 -> 25 -> 10Hm -> 25Hm? They managed it in ToC with the extra socket(s) on the 10Hm gear and the tribute chest cloaks being higher ilvl. A LOT of the 10Hm gear was better than 25m gear, though not all. (cough trinkets cough) Also, even though there are 3 ilvls, it's really just two different ilvls (251 from 10m and 264 from 25m) with the heroic versions being "bumped up" by 13 ilvls (which is trivial to implement). If you really want 10 > 25 > 10Hm > 25Hm via ilvl, just drop the stats on all 25 man gear by 6 ilvls. (again trivial).

[Deleted]

Its not about how hard it is, its about the number of people putting in the effort. And it is alot harder to get 25 people that are good at what they do than it is 10 people. I can get 2x 10 man ICC going with my guild, but getting those 5 extra people to show up is a total pain in the rear. As a Guild/Raid Leader I would say that 25 man is definitely where the better gear should be. BUT! A little something for you all to think about is. You get 2 badges per boss no matter what difficulty. So someone clearing 10 man is going to get loot faster than someone struggling in both 10 and 25 man Festergut... just saying Not that I have that issue.... /sigh

Just to add...
I do agree with the 10 > 25 > 10Hm > 25Hm
Just try getting the developers to make 4 different iLevels is probably futile...

You could just give the 25 man raids more drops per boss, so they get their gear faster then they would in a 10 man.

[Belajas]

No. that is not what I am asking.

-> 10n < 25 < 10hc < 25 hc

I do not ask for gear equivalent to 25hc. I ask for gear appropriate for the above mentioned difficulty scale. I would even settle for getting item equivalents to Nibelung, Zod's Repeating Longbow and other items that have some sort of interesting procc.

Theres the comparison example for 10m hm bow and Zod from 25mn

http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=50034;51927

Unless youre a prochog, Id at least take the 10hm bow rather than Zod...

And for 4th itemlevel stage... either the difference would be even smaller than what its now between these 3 stages or then 25hm gear would be massively OP and would propably fck up the itemlevel progression speed...

[Azyoulike]

Personally I loved the itemization back in Ulduar.

Then it was definitely

10 man normal < 25 man normal < 10 man hard < 25 man hard

iLvl of 10 hard was the same as 25 normal but invariably there was an extra socket, or just flat out superior itemization.

But then Ulduar was clearly the high-point of wrath raiding in so many ways

[Ashelía]

I wouldn't mind 10/25 man normal modes having shared loot, just get more per boss on normal cause purely based on difficulty they are at the same level or even in some ways easier.

10/25 > 10H > 25H would be a perfect setup

[Shizznizz]

Making 10m hard loot better than 25m normal loot could have the adverse effect to the OP and get some 25 guilds splitting their raid days into raiding 10m hard for loot, ignoring 25m normal and going to the 25m hard with their epic lewts.


Although i do agree, even as a 25 raider, cooler loot is needed in 10m's

[kronpas]

Make HM 10m and 25m share the same lockout, so ppl must pick what raid they are going to participate in a week. Being in a 10m guild, I myself see its not fair to put more effort into HM 10m just to get equal gear as in normal 25m.

[Shiira]

If gear is what you raid for then you won't ever be happy.

Go play diablo 2 and cheat if you want gear.

[kronpas]

Demanding fair rewards for the effort =/= raiding just for gears. The sense of accomplishment comes only with the first boss kill, every single kill afterwards is just for the purple pixels - dont lie to yourself.

[Hammerbeard]

Just because gear isn't the best for you, doesn't mean it isn't the best for other classes/specs. Any DK tank would (and probably will) die to acquire Unidentifiable Organ.

Also, asking why 25 man rewards are stronger than 10 man rewards is a stupid question. 25 mans are, by numbers alone, 2.5 times more difficult to put together a group for than are 10 mans. Couple that with the fact that it's even harder to find 2.5 times as many SKILLED players, as well as the fact that your chances of getting loot are cut tremendously, it only makes sense that the rewards are greater. For example, if you're the only cloth dps in your 10 man, any cloth gear with hit on it is automatically yours. In a 25 man, chances are you're rolling against 4-7 other people.

You're saying you want gear that is on par with 25 man loot, but you need less players to kill bosses that hit for less, have less hp, and have nerfed fight mechanics compared to their 25-man counterparts? Get into a real guild and stop bitching.

[Gron]

Very good point Light. Its true Blizzard makes itemization mistakes, and I hope they start to think about comments like this, rather than respond "everything is working as intended".

Those who raid seriously can see that some items (e.g. trinkets) from 10 heroic are not good/acceptable choices when comparing to 25 normal modes.

[Shiira]

Demanding fair rewards for the effort =/= raiding just for gears. The sense of accomplishment comes only with the first boss kill, every single kill afterwards is just for the purple pixels - dont lie to yourself.

You are being rewarded fairly, the 10 man gear just has lower item levels because the 10 man content is tuned to a lower level of difficulty.

[kronpas]

Im not talking about normal 10m and 25m. Im talking of hardmode 10m loot being of equal ilvl to 25m normal mode. Do you find HM 10m as easy as normal mode 25m, if ToC raids are of any indicator?