[Music] Metal

[Badpaladin]

Well, I spent all night listening to agalloch across a few of their albums just so my opinions weren't completely unfounded. What I do like is that they aren't very black metal, and I think they're far better suite as avant-garde with some dark folk rather than black metal. The only issue with that is their music really isn't complex enough to be avant-garde metal. They're minimalist, and it has great effect on some songs but doesn't sound very good on others. I'm also still set on their vocalist as not being very good, and I think his singing and especially poor growling detracts from the emotion of the song. The good news is, they're especially good at writing beautiful shifts from distortion -> acoustic -> distortion and songs were this occurs and vocals aren't as present are their best. In fact, if they were to do an instrumental album I'd likely buy it.

However, to call them a huge influence and big name in metal isn't really accurate. Tons of bands before their first album have incorporated many of the same elements into their music, and many afterward have done the same. They sound fairly Norwegian, but still have a distinct American style which limits their impact in the scene they're a part of, IMO.

@thrashmetalftw -- HURRR YOU BASTARD!! I kid, there really is a lot of terrible hardcore music out there, but the good bands that incorporate various time signatures, complex melodies or just plain awesome emotion can be addicting. It's precisely why Protest the Hero is my favorite band! And for what it's worth, I think nixxy is trolling as usual.

[SilkforCalde]

Agalloch is not nearly as known in the EU as you seem to think. By and large, they're an American band with an American following. In several decades of reading through various metal zines, both on- and offline, never once did I get to see any of the following references: "For fans of Agalloch", "the band is influenced by Agalloch" etc etc.

Much as it will probably pain you to hear, Agalloch is largely unimportant over here. I have my doubts about their importance over at your neck of the woods, but seeing how it's a fair bit harder to double check for me, I'll just let it slide.

One of the biggest names in metal, same as in any other type of music, means "one of the big sellers". I tried to find listings for their record sales, but didn't manage to. I seriously doubt they reach numbers close to anything a Slayer, Megadeth or Fear Factory achieve. Or a Dimmu Borgir/Nile, for that matter.

Additionally, their influence on the bands you listed is extremely limited. Quite a few of them started around the same time at or before Agalloch (though possibly in different bands). Furthermore, acoustic guitars or genre boundry-breaking instruments are hardly Agalloch's doing.

//edit: Let's back this statement up a bit. Agalloch released their first full-length in 1999. They formed in 1995. Alcest formed in 2000 and Neige was already active in the (black) metal scene before then. The people in Les Discrets had been involved with involved with Neige for a while already. With Woods of Ypres, Agalloch's influence is listed, but having never even heard that band I won't say anything about them. I will point out they're a Canadian band, as opposed to Alcest/Les Discrets.

Additionally, Agalloch themselves covering an English Neo-folk song on one of their releases already points towards a source far more likely to influence European bands directly. As to Black Metal meeting Folk, Ulver had done such a thing several years before Agalloch even formed. Again, they're far more likely to have influenced the entire scene than Agalloch.

The only way you'd possibly convince me of Agalloch being one of the biggest names in metal would be if they changed their name to something like Agalloch's Vital And Important Musicological Entertainment Studio. Which really is fairly lengthy and possibly one of the bigger names.

Do you know much about Alcest? It doesn't seem that way to me. Sure, Alcest formed in 2000 but their first release, Triste Hivernale in 2001 sounds absolutely NOTHING like what they would become by 2005 with Le Secret. To say that Alcest is not influenced by Agalloch is comical. Of course they are. Anyone with a set of ears would immediately be able to discern that.

Your eurocentrism is appalling, by the way.

According to last.fm, Agalloch has approximately the same amount of listens as Nile. last.fm is absolutely huge and most music fans I know use it, so we can use those numbers to say that, approximately, Agalloch is as big as Nile. Dimmu Borgir is quite possibly the worst band in the black metal scene so let's try and avoid discussion of them. They are to black metal what McDonald's is to the hamburger.

What would Woods of Ypres being Canadian have to do with anything? Canada has an absolutely massive metal scene. Cryptopsy, Gorguts, unExpect, Augury, Devin Townsend / Strapping Young Lad, the list goes on and on. To say that Canadian metal is somehow inferior is shockingly ignorant and, again, relates to the appalling Eurocentrism in your post.

Ulver is one of the biggest influences for Agalloch, I have said that before. Agalloch took it MUCH further than Bergtatt though. According to Agalloch, their main influences are Katatonia, Ulver, The 3rd and the Mortal, Swans, and Godspeed You! Black Emperor.

---------- Post added 2010-11-05 at 11:18 PM ----------

BTW, Flotsam and Jetsam have a shockingly low 400,000 listens on last.fm. The lowest out of any band I've checked. Incredibly obscure.

---------- Post added 2010-11-05 at 11:25 PM ----------

Agalloch are not even remotely avant-garde either.

[Badpaladin]

Wow, you really can't read, can you? We understand that you like them but your fanboy qualities are radiating like a goddamn pulsar.

[SilkforCalde]

Wait... what? That response makes absolutely no sense. Rephrase.

[Badpaladin]

You're directing your radiation at us, so that's why it's so clearly visible. It wouldn't make sense if your radiation wasn't pointed directly at us, though...hut everybody knows that.

[SilkforCalde]

I fail to see how defending myself and educating you guys is anything approaching fanboyism. Every time I even so much as mention Agalloch, about 10 people start spamming hate posts. Of course I am going to respond. That doesn't make me a fanboy, just makes you guys a bunch of trolls.

---------- Post added 2010-11-06 at 12:38 AM ----------

Also, no matter how many times you guys say they aren't, Agalloch are ABSOLUTELY one of the biggest names in current metal. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't mean they aren't, it just means that YOU have your heads in the sand and don't know anything about modern metal. Agalloch are as big as Nile, bigger than Gojira, and definitely far more well known than Protest the Hero, The Human Abstract, and Sikth put together.

[monstrado]

• Death
• Amon Amarth
• Dying Fetus
• Obscura (Favorite Metal Drummer)

[Badpaladin]

I think you're confused, Silk. Nobody is criticizing you for liking agalloch. We're certainly criticizing agalloch themselves, but not you for liking them. What we are criticizing is your wild claims of agalloch being one of the biggest names in metal, album of the year, blah blah with no real proof and nobody else coming to affirm your statements, then getting super defensive about it. What you're doing is exactly what fanboys do when something they like is criticized.

[SilkforCalde]

See, to me, after three listens (yeah, it leaked) the new Agalloch is EASILY my favorite album of the year. Only competition is the sublime black metal / post rock hybrid .neon from Lantlos and the equally sublime progressive shoegaze black metal folk hybrid Ecailles de Lune from Alcest.

Maybe I'd have a harder choice if Heretoir actually released their full length this year Graue Bauten is one of the top 10 songs of the year, easily.

---------- Post added 2010-11-06 at 05:16 AM ----------

Also, it's not a wild claim to call Agalloch one of the biggest names in metal. It's a wild claim to state that they are not! That's what I've been saying in all of those posts. To say that Agalloch is NOT one of the biggest names in metal is a complete admission of ignorance in relation to the metal scene, period. I have provided numerous sources from metal sites, from hipster indie rock sites, from general music sites, and so on that proves it. Why do you guys just ignore the proof?

[Duilliath]

Also, it's not a wild claim to call Agalloch one of the biggest names in metal. It's a wild claim to state that they are not!

We're not arguing against Agalloch. There's little reason to. I like part of their stuff.

I am arguing against them being one of the biggest names in metal, which is false. Dimmu Borgir (no matter what you may feel about them, and I'd largely agree with you) appeals to a larger number of people. Similarly, Behemoth appeals to a larger number of people.

I see you managed to misinterpret my statement about Woods... being from Canada. I meant no difference in quality between the two regions. I meant a difference in what people are exposed to. That being, the northern American (continent) neck of the woods is far more likely to hear, you know, bands from the northern American part of the world.
My point here was: Agalloch was influenced (partially at least) by european bands. You listed those bands yourself. It is more likely for European bands to have been influenced by 'the source' than a 'new' version, especially one that is not that well known over in this region.

I won't argue about Flotsam & Jetsam being unknown, but I will point out that that started in a Metallica discussion, which is why you got egg on your face. In relation to Metallica, not knowing Flotsam & Jetsam is like not knowing Megadeth or Exodus. And personally, I'd sooner think that numbers of last.fm state how many people like a certain band - which definitely explains the low number for Flotsam & Jetsam, but says rather little about how well-known they are. I know Dimmu Borgir, but (other than a track on some sampler) haven't listened to them in years. It may pain you to hear that they have twice the number of listeners on last.fm that Agalloch have.

Part of your problem is that you confuse your opinion with fact, which is something I've seen before. You think a band is crap, therefore they can't be influential. You love a band, therefore they must be the biggest name in metal. I'll admit it makes this thread more fun as at least it gives us something to argue about.

My favourite album of the year will likely be either Deathspell Omega or Virus (assuming it appears this year, which isn't certain quite yet), but I'll hardly go claim them to be a huge name in metal. With music that far out of the main scope of people, something that far leftfield will not be picked as album of the year. Whether we like it or not, metal has attracted the numbers that it's become a matter of masses. In which case something cruddy like the new Iron Maiden or Dimmu Borgir or (gods forbid) Cradle of Filth will run away with those rewards.
It'll be a mainstream band, either a heavy or thrash one or possibly one of the black metal bands striving for sales. Or one of those daft Deathcore things. The masses are stupid and won't know, most likely, any of the bands you (nor I, for that matter) mention anyway.

//edit: Oh, and as to the avantgarde (though it's a word that's been bandied around in reviews of Agalloch and on the same Wikipedia where you got your references list) that was in regards to Especially Likely Sloth. Which features, as I'm sure you know, Jason Walton.

//edit2: Just to substantiate my claim a li'l more, on their last tour through Europe, Agalloch was supporting Dornenreich. I'm aware they're friends and that Agalloch don't tour much, however... Wolves in the Throne Room, despite starting a couple of years later and having less releases (and quite a few less listeners on last.fm), are headlining their current European tour. And have done so with their previous one.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Funny thing about rabid fanboyism is the obligatory desperate rationalizing away of every argument that you feel attacks whatever you're a fanboy of.

Ok, this comment made no sense whatsoever. You are the one ignoring my arguments and posting meaningless crap... Oh well, 100% Troll detected, was fun arguing with you though

And to SilkforCalde, I know lots of ppl who don't use last.fm, including myself. Saying that it's something that everybody that's interested in music uses, is just... wrong.

[Eldar45]

Ah, metalheads arguing over bands... there WILL be blood.

But obviously, the greatest metal album ever is Iced Earth's Night of the Stormrider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l26XO7o2Sc

[Duilliath]

I have the feeling you'll enjoy Demons and Wizards. A cooperation by Jon Schaffer and Hansi Kürsch from Blind Guardian.



And Kaellen, next time you link something, please make sure there's some quality to it. The compression on that song renders the sound utterly horrible. Which isn't the case on the regular version.

[Badpaladin]

Stormrider is one of the most fun songs(and albums, hut the title song is the best) in metal. That doesn't necessarily mean best(I think it's a power metal classic), but it's incredibly fun to play. Takes galloping to a whole new level.

[Badpaladin]

Nixxy, you're a meanie.

Bright side, God Forbid is a pretty damn good band live. They're not musical prodigies or anything, but I'd love to go to a show like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLdvlbmS21c

[jreg]

Hey, SilkforCalde, are you also on Sputnikmusic?

Just curious.

edit: Also, Bad, I'd say Agalloch has more of a post-rock feel than folk. Pretty sweet band regardless.

[SilkforCalde]

Hey, SilkforCalde, are you also on Sputnikmusic?

Just curious.

edit: Also, Bad, I'd say Agalloch has more of a post-rock feel than folk. Pretty sweet band regardless.

yeah, that's me. Not too many people out there willing to name themselves after phrases from Gene Wolfe books but I have seen a Silk for calde bumper sticker online for some reason...

[Bloodlusted]

Anyone into stoner ( likeKyuss, Electric Wizard and Sleep, to name the most famous)?

[ChexMix]

FFDP
Sevendust

Are two I really like. I listen to Octane on Sirius/XM, how I hear about bands.

[jreg]

Anyone into stoner ( likeKyuss, Electric Wizard and Sleep, to name the most famous)?

yo.