Protection Paladin Guide and FAQ for 3.3 and on.

[Offhand]

Please report for sticky as I'll soon have all the information up.

Welcome to the patch 3.3 Prot paladin guide. This project is an update of the original guide I had written for my guild boards back in Ulduar. It's been updated for 3.3 with all of the major changes covered. I hope to cover all the basics and go to facts for paladin tanking. In a perfect world, I'll slowly add links to good discussions, debates, and theorycrafting relating to the various sections as the thread evolves.

What this thread will cover:
- Prot basics such as spec, glyphs, rotation, and gear
- Reference points for accepted theorycraft and it's application
- Overview of tank theory (started, needs more work)
- Links to discussions and theorycraft supporting the guide
- A place for questions, esoteric or otherwise, about prot paladin related things

What this thread will not cover:
- Flames, crap posts, and trolls
- Hardcore MATLAB analysis (although it will be linked for references)
- Talking about the four filler points in tier 1 and 2 of ret. No really.

Talents and Builds:

Core Protection Raiding Talents
Yes, there are only 59 points in the linked build. They represent every necessary talent for a protection paladin to take. The remainder comes down to personal preference and group specific buffs that you may or may not need to bring.

OK, so what do I do with the rest of the points? Current theorycrafting tells us that any build with crusade outperforms non-crusade builds by a fair margin threat-wise. This is because in the majority of fights, we get the full 2% damage buff for DUH mobs (4/5 ToC bosses and pretty much all of ICC). Exactly how you fill out the rest of the ret tree is reliant on your own raid comp and what buffs your group needs. I will post what you can optimally achieve if every other raid buff is covered. It's important to realize that if you consistently raid with warriors, ret paladins, muti rogues, ferals, or any number of other classes, some buffs can be more easily covered by them. Talk to your other raiders, make sure you always know who takes what and that everything is covered.

Assuming you aren't responsible for demo shout, it's better off to pick up 3/5 conviction and 2/2 PoJ. Your final build should look like this. I am not advocating that your build needs to be this, the exact build will always depend on the raid.

Common mistakes and reasoning behind some more often debated talents:

Divinity: 5% increased heals looks good on paper, but in reality it's not a particularly strong talent. The majority of this talent will contribute to overheals and there really isn't anyplace else you can drop a whole 5 talent points for this incredibly marginal talent.

Reckoning: Reckoning is a cool sounding talent which I attribute the majority of the debates surrounding it. Realistically, it sims out to be one of the weakest threat talents available (second weakest after conviction) that gets increasingly worse as our gear and avoidance improves.

Dsac/DGuardian: There was a point in time where these talents were much more suited for offtanks and rarely useful for maintanking. As such, they were normally relegated to “optional” status and often used as the three filler points to go further down the prot tree. With 3.3, Dsac/DGuardian has become a much more mandatory talent. The damage transfer buff and the damage reduction buff are separate and the risky parts of this ability can be quickly canceled via macro while the flat 20% raidwide damage reduction remains. The ability is now largely considered an absolute must for progression tanking paladins.

½ SA: In practically any raid or heroic, only 1 point of SA is necessary to not worry about mana troubles. The sole exception to this is Vezax in Ulduar because sanc and DP are ineffectual there.

2/2 imp judge, Heart of the Crusader, imp might, and benediction: It does not matter where you spend these 4 points, none of them have any effect on your ability to tank. If your raid is missing a certain buff, then your choices may vary. Stop complaining about where these 4 points go. Do not have any prot spec discussion thread devolves into slap fights about where the lower ret talents go, it doesn't matter.

Vindication: Likewise depends on your raid comp. Definitely pick it up if no one else is covering it, otherwise there are legitimate threat talents to consider instead.

Seal of Command: SoC is good for short term AoE tanking burst, otherwise a MT will likely never use it. Good for heroics and most offtanking, but not a justifiable point for a MT-only build.

Threat and Rotations:

Paladins are well known for their incredibly high threat output, both single target and AoE. The simple fact is that we have more abilities then global cooldowns to generate threat. Because of this, it's impossible to use a rotation that keeps all abilities on cooldown all the time, but we can come close. The highest threat rotation is called the 96969 rotation which is excellently explained here.

The basic idea is that holy shield is up 100% of the time and our 4 highest threat abilities (shield of righteousness, hammer of the righteous, judgment, consecration) are always or almost always on cooldown. Abilities like exorcism, avenger's shield (unglyphed), and holy wrath do less single target damage then the above listed abilities and should only be used when you need to aggro something at range OR fumble your rotation and need some buttons to press while you wait for a CD to reset so you can begin the 96 rotation over again.

[Offhand]

Stat Breakdown:

Threat Stats

There are four stats that relate directly to threat you will find on tank gear. Expertise, strength, block value, and hit. They are listed in order of importance.

Expertise: As of 3.3, shield of righteousness is subject to dodge and parries, this buffed the threat value of expertise immensely. Reaching the expertise softcap of 26 is the best thing a paladin can do for their threat, after that, the value of expertise drops to the fourth strongest threat stat. Keep in mind that glyph of SoV will always be the best single target threat glyph even if you're entirely over the softcap (hitting the hardcap is realistically impossible in ICC gear).

Strength: Strength is on all tank gear and that's a good thing too as it is the second strongest threat stat available. Strength is subject to several multipliers which increase it's value and also has tremendous secondary benefits. Strength gives AP, BV, and SP when fully talented. The value of strength drops once you reach 2900 buffed BV via any combination of strength and/or block value. This is because the modifier for the damage of ShoR is subject to DR.

Block Value: BV isn't a terribly common stat on gear nowadays, but the odd pieces do still exist. Due to our heavy reliance on ShoR for threat, BV is the third best threat stat. BV contributes to capping out the DR on ShoR much faster then strength would.

Hit: 263 hit rating is needed to stop melee specials from missing. From a purely threat-based perspective, hit is one of the weaker threat stats. Depending on the fight, hit may increase in value because of the need for a taunt to succeed at a certain time. In most cases, it's a better idea to swap in a hit trinket or glyph HoR for those kinds of situations, instead of carrying around the extra hit at all times.

Other Stats, AP, SP, ArP, Crit, Agi, and Haste: These do not appear on tank gear. Their individual values will vary slightly but be aware they are pretty much always inferior to Str, BV, expertise, and hit (under their respective caps).

How to gear for threat: While gearing, gemming, and enchanting for threat isn't something I would recommend, there's a simple three step process for determining your top threat stat.
1)With SoV (glyphed) up, do you have 26 expertise? If not, expertise remains your top threat stat.
2)Fully raidbuffed, do you have less then 2900 block value? If so, strength is your top threat stat.
3)Fully raidbuffed, do you have more then 2900 block value? If so, hit is your top threat stat.

Survival stats:

Gearing for overall survival is the most important part of being a tank. Understanding how to best survive an encounter and give your healers the easiest possible time is paramount to becoming a good tank.

Stamina: Stam increases your health pool by a base level of 10 points of health per point of stam. We have several modifiers via talents and buffs that push that number up somewhat. Stamina is always useful as it's always there when you take damage. It provides a cushion for your healers to work with (more on that in the EH discussion).

Armor: armor has gotten a new meaning in ICC. Prior to Icecrown, there were only one or two high armor pieces tops per tier so the stat wasn't exactly stackable, just something that icreased with gear level. Armor can drastically scale the value of your effective health in fights were physical damage is a primary concern. Armor has zero effect on magic based attacks, making it's usefulness situational.

Strength: Strength provides BV at a rate of about 0.707 BV per point of strength when fully talented. Not a major concern but strength is on practically all tank gear so it's worth mentioning.

Defense rating: Defense rating increases our dodge, parry, and block chance as well as our chance to be missed and critically hit. A defense skill (not rating) of 540 is a requirement to remove a bosses' chance to crit you in a raid setting making 540 defense skill the softcap. Defense past this level is not wasted however, as defense is our best avoidance stat increasing dodge, parry, miss, and block chance. The combined dodge/parry/miss of defense will provide more point-for-point avoidance then other stats like dodge rating, parry rating, and agility.

Dodge rating: Dodge rating does just that, increase our chance to dodge. It is the second strongest avoidance stat after defense rating.

Parry rating: Parry is more expense to stack as an avoidance stat, thus making it weaker. It theoretically has some threat component to it because of bosses giving us parry-hasted attacks but paladins rely so little on auto-swings for threat the numbers really aren't relevant.

Agility: You won't find agility on tank gear, but it certainly has it's value. Agility provides armor, dodge, and crit at fairly appreciable levels, making it a worthwhile stat to gem for when meeting a desirable red socket. For a full explanation, check out Theck's work on the subject.

Block rating: Block rating increases our chance to block. Upon reaching 102.4% combined miss, dodge, parry, and block chance, we no longer gain any benefit from block rating as all melee attacks made against us will either fail to land or be blocked for a certain amount. In ICC, the radiance effect reduces our total dodge by 20%, making the magic 102.4% number rather difficult to hit.

Block value: The amount of damage stopped by a block is equal to our total block value. As a stat, the value of block depends entirely on the swingspeed and size of the incoming hits. Fast, relatively weak hits will increase the usefulness of block whereas slow, hard hitters will decrease the value of block.

Expertise: On fights where bosses are able to parry-haste, expertise can reduce incoming damage. Seeing as most fights where this would be a concern don't have parry-hasting enabled, it's not much of a concern. But when it is, expertise ain't half bad.

[Offhand]

Gearing:

This will cover the various aspect of your gear, gems, chants, glyphs, etc.

Enchants:

This is a rather straightforward section. There's only a few “debatable” options where people go back and forth on higher budgeted enchants vs. “but this one is EH” type discussions. A good rule of thumb is that if you're having no issues hitting the def cap, then you're likely better off using a health enchant. I've excluded profession based enchants, they're covered in the profession section. Ideal enchants are listed first.

Head: 37 stam / 20 def
Shoulders: 30 stam / 25 resil OR 20 dodge / 15 defense
Back: 225 armor OR 16 def
Chest: 275 health OR 22 def
Bracers: 40 stam
Gloves: 18 stam OR 240 armor
Belt: belt buckle (additional socket, should be filled with a 30 stam gem)
Legs: 55 stam / 22 agi
Boots: 22 stam
Weapon: Blood Draining OR Mongoose
Shield: 81 BV OR 20 def OR 18 stam

Gems:

There are realistically only 4 kinds of gems and one meta you should consider using as a tank. At extremely low levels of gear it may be necessary to gem pure defense, or switch your meta for lack of the softcap, but that's not a primary concern of this guide. Dictating what socket bonus is worth meeting varies on a fight-by-fight basis and also largely plays into your tanking style. You'll normally default to this template.

Red socket, bonus worth meeting: shifting dreadstone, regal dreadstone
Yellow socket, bonus worth meeting: enduring eye of zul
Blue socket or any socket without a worthwhile bonus: solid majestic zircon
Meta: austere earthseige diamond

There is currently some debate for agi vs dodge gemming. The short version is that dodge will still provide the highest amount of avoidance for a red socket but agi will come close, as well as provide small amounts of EH via armor and a very small amount of threat via crit. Agility really starts to pay off at high levels of gear when the avoidance gain for either stat is diminished, but the secondary benefits of agility remain the same.

Glyphs:

Major:
Divine Plea (required): Glyph DP is a flat 3% damage reduction whenever DP is up. With the appropriate talents, DP is up pretty much 100% of the time. Hooray for our only “mandatory” glyph.

Seal of Vengeance (almost required): The best threat glyph ever, giving us a huge amount of expertise for a single glyph slot. No other glyph comes close to approaching this in terms of threat unless you are at the expertise hard cap (which is not happening in ICC gear).

Glyph of Salv (optional): Provides a 20% reduction in damage when salv is cast on yourself. Can be considered an extra cooldown with a serious downside of threat loss. Have macros to quickly /cancelaura salv if you drop threat too quickly if threat becomes an issue.

Other optional glyphs: HotR, Judge, Avenger's Shield, and Righteous Defense. All these have situational uses. Judge and AS are minor threat boosts. While HotR is good for multi-mob tanking past 3 mobs. RD is worth glyphing if you're low on hit and in a taunt-sensitive encounter. Know the fights beforehand, and choose the appropriate glyphs.

Minor:

Lay on Hands and Sense Undead are both very useful for obvious reasons. There really isn't third minor glyph with any great benefit. I'm personally using Glyph of the Wise, but that's entirely optional.

Consumables:

These are the best options for maxing your survivability.

Flask: Flask of Stoneblood
Potion: Indestructible Potion
Food: Blackened dragonfin is your ideal survival choice. For a threat sensitive fight it may be better to use strength food and mooching off a fish feast is passable, I guess.

[Offhand]

Miscellaneous:

Professions

Since 3.2, professions have, by and large, been balanced out. There are very small discrepancies leading to a few professions being marginally better then others but any two profs will normally convey about the same bonuses. The only professions a tank should really avoid are skinning, herbing, tailoring, and inscription. Technically, the best tank combo is JC/LW but many paladins go JC/BS as it's very powerful for all three specs.

JC: Despite the nerfs, JC is still the best profession for tanks (and all other specs for the most part) as it gives a bonus of 63 stamina from 3 JC-only gems.
LW: Gives an extra 62 stam from the enhanced wrist enchant.
Mining, BS, enchanting: All give 60 stam increases
Alchemy: Gives 520 additional health with flask of stoneblood up
Tailoring: Don't take tailoring. Just don't
Herbalism: Situational at best, calculated EH values vary with health but are all significantly less then 60 stam.
Skinning: 40 Crit, a weak threat stat.
Inscription: 40 dodge rating, not preferable to EH type enchants.
Engineering: Flexweave cloak enchant (1 extra agi), charge-like boot enchant (trade off for stam enchant and on a long CD), 885 armor glove enchant. It's weird and it's fun and it gives you those saronite bombs everyone cares so much about now ;D, the glove enchant is good making engineering a competitive profession.

Tank Theory

Tanking, when you really boil it down, is the management of three different things during an encounter. You need to be able to balance your threat, avoidance and EH.

Effective Health: EH is a measure of how much breathing room your healers have. This means, it's a measurement of how long you can survive sans heals while he healers in the raid are busy moving out of fire, healing others, or just not paying attention to you. EH assumes a worst case scenario, that is, no dodges, no parries, no misses. Stats like armor and block can be considered part of your EH depending on the encounter. Magic damage reduces the EH value of armor as it's ineffectual there. Unavoidable attacks or encounters where you don't have 102.4% total avoidance/block discount block as well.

I'm probably going to get some flak for this paragraph but here it goes anyway. While I agree that effective health can be the most important figure in a majority of encounters and the focus of a lot of your gearing, it is not the only thing that matters. Claiming that EH is the only thing worth caring about is plain stupidity. If that is the case, why is there a zone wide avoidance debuff in the endgame raid for two expansions running? I can tell you why, there are other things that effect a tanks ability to survive an encounter.

Avoidance: People love to downplay the benefits of avoidance but exactly what it does is quite simple. With the advent of encounters like Gunship and Saurfang, avoidance sets are a necessary part of any good tanks gear pool.

Threat: Since Wrath launched, all tanks received major across the board threat buffs. This makes threat generation a non-issue for the majority of fights. There are a few that require special attention (like Hodir) but it's more beneficial to keep some high threat items in your inventory for specific encounters. Always make sure your rotation, talents, and glyphs are in order before gemming, enchanting, or gearing heavily for threat stats. Having played with the kind of dps that have entries in WMO, I can't honestly say you should ever need to gear for threat on normal encounters.

BiS Lists:
Still not included: ICC 10 hard, ICC 25 hard, T10 25 easy 4pc. Chardev is easy and fast to use, but they upload items at a snail's pace. Swapping links over to the less polished but more complete wowhead profiler. Process might take some time.

Pre-raid, small grind set-up: This is easily obtainable for an alt or non-raiding paladin. I've included two frost badge items (cloak and trinket) as they are easily obtainable and some of the biggest upgrades you could get relative to heroic level gear. More serious lists could probably include 264 crafted legs/boots. Ditch the pants and shield as fast as you can, there are no strong options outside of raids.

http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=20951582

T10 10 man easymode: I've come to the conclusion, with the variety of 264 gear available from either crafters, rep, or the badge vendor that it just isn't worth pursuing the 4 piece at the 10 man level. I would suggest, if you really want the 2 piece for whatever reason, you drop the nonset shoulders I included for the 10 man lists. Whether or not the 4 piece becomes viable (or possibly necessary) for 10 hards remains to be seen.

http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=20951635

T10 25 man easymode, nonset: I decided to make two sets at this level, one for four-piece and one sans four-piece as I still can't decide if one will end up being better then the other. Certainly 4pc is a lose of stats because of the itemization of the tier has less gem slots then the nontier, but giving up three gems for the 4 set bonus does seem like a pretty nice trade. Last Word and Unreliable Organ placeholders until chardev is updated.

http://www.chardev.org/?profile=352620


Thread History:

1/31/10 Thread launched!
2/5/10 minor grammar fixes. BiS lists started.

[Ronark]

Looks good so far. As far as I know, you could compile the text all into one post, as I have not yet found a character limit for posts.

[Offhand]

Primarily for ease of reading. Additionally, it's easier to link to specific parts of the guide.

[xdwbx]

Excellent guide. Perhaps, if you have the time or care to, you could elaborate a bit more on the tanking weapon enchants. I have been searching for good guides in this regard, but they are typically outdated or have boiled down to people saying I use "X" enchant and it is clearly better in all situations with no real supporting arguments.

Personally I go for Blade Warding despite hearing some of the more respected tanks on my server say "lolBladeward" w/o realizing it received a significant buff after 3.2. I've still not completely decided if it is the best choice for me, so perhaps you could give a few pointers for those who are in the same boat.

I thought you didn't add enchanting in, but I double checked and you did.

[Aedh]

Looking good.
I have some minor differences of opinions, but this is exactly what a fresh protection paladin needs to read.
I especially liked the part about not discussing those 4 points in ret.

[Offhand]

you could elaborate a bit more on the tanking weapon enchants. I have been searching for good guides in this regard, but they are typically outdated or have boiled down to people saying I use "X" enchant and it is clearly better in all situations with no real supporting arguments.

I thought you didn't add enchanting in, but I double checked and you did.

You were probably reading through as I was putting stuff up. ;D

As for the weapon enchant debate, blade ward vs blood draining is really a discussion of apples and oranges. Blade ward is an avoidance enchant with a proc rate that's been continually buffed throughout the expansion, there is also a minor threat component with the attack that follows a successful parry. Blood draining doesn't have near the same proc rate but tranlates to EH which automatically makes it the only option in some people's minds.

The most convincing article I read on the issue was a maintankadin analysis back after the initial implementation of the enchants. The question was raised about how blood draining would interact with the old version of AD (the one that could be leapfrogged). In theory, the heal component could push you up over the range of AD where you could then take a hit at 36% health and die. The conclusion was that this kind of situation was rare and would likely never occur, but also found that blood draining didn't often end up saving you either. So the whole idea of "an enchant that will extrememely rarely kill you and otherwise probably not save you" didn't exactly translate to a good review by my standards.

And then there's mongoose. Mongoose is some hybrid of an apple and an orange created by a mad scientist and left in the cupboard for a few years. It's there, and you know what it's like, you just aren't sure if you should eat it. It gives minor amounts of threat, avoidance, and armor all on an RNG proc. The proc really doesn't measure up to either the avoidance of blade ward or the EH of blood draining but you're left with some value in between the two.

I guess my results are inconclusive. I use blade ward primarily because it has the highest uptime and stops the most damage but there's never really been a definite answer to that questions. I could say that if you have thousands of gold to burn, you should re-enchant depending on what encounter you're progressing on at the moment.

EDIT: The only other way to really analyze it is to look at what the pros do. Armory'ing people from world first type guilds I see a lot of mongoose, some blade ward, some blood draining, and even a few accuracy enchants. Mongoose appears to be the most frequent (but I only did a random walk of like ~20 people so it can't be very accurate).

[Iselian]

My experiences with weapon enchants feel similar to the fruit descriptions, but with different results. Blade Ward, from tests I've seen/done, has a lower PPM rate than Mongoose. Add to the fact that it's consumed after activating and it seems like the uptime of its benefit is.. lower. To direct comparison, you don't lose Mongoose after a dodge. The extra armor from Mongoose is nice, the haste brings a marginal bit o' threat (though Blade Ward's threat isn't exactly extreme).

Blood Draining acts as EH, near as I can tell. Just not a ton of it.

[xdwbx]

Yeah I saw you starting to post so I just refreshed every few minutes. Anyway, I read that thread you are referring to, but with the AD changes Blood Draining seems to be brought back in line as a good choice. I'm not 100% clear on this yet, but there are references to our Seal dots counting as physical, which would help prevent the loss of the Blood Draining charges during high movement/add fights. I'm not sure if this is at all accurate, but I will continue to look into it.

I'm still not sold on Blood Draining due to the necessity for bleeds. I work on oil rigs so I am not always around for the guild raids. I end up as the OT in many situations because I get behind on gear due to my job. You don't always tank targets with bleeds on them as the OT, so I feel generally limited to either Mongoose or Blade Ward.

I check fairly often, especially on farm bosses, for my procs and whatnot. It seems like Blade Ward reaches 2 or 3 stacks very often, and even 4 on some bosses for me. Maybe I am the only one experiencing this, but I've tried Mongoose and Agility during ToC only to switch back to Blade Ward because they just didn't feel very effective. To each their own I suppose, though Blood Draining is arguably (imo) the most limited by raid make up and your position in the raid.

[Ronark]

Added to the Ex-Sticky section of Stickies.

[luthe]

A solid guide, offhand.

on the weapon enchant issue. i also run blade ward because the uptime is way higher then other enchants
(I've seen it hit 4 stacks, i've never seen mongoose refresh itself 4 times within it's own duration.)
blood draining looks okay but feels way too rng for me, i know parry rating is rng but with parry rating i feel safer like i have a higher chance to take no damage instead of just a chance at healing myself =/

[Kheirn]

So...

As I've kind of figured out on my own, my choice of professions as a low level (herbalism and inscription) severely lowers my HP compared to tanks with the "right" professions. Would it severely hurt me if I don't change my professions as an ICC10 offtanking paladin, or isn't it that bad? Personally I hate the fact that you can't pick the professions you want since Blizzard implemented this, but I want to try to be as good as I can.

[luthe]

It's a loss of about 1350 health, maybe 1400.

If you're offtanking ICC10 in a casual 10man guild, it won't make or break many attempts. It's about the same loss as not flasking.

But every bit counts.

[Jin84]

Hmm, you seem to have explained some stuff better than me. Thumbs up!

[xdwbx]

A solid guide, offhand.

on the weapon enchant issue. i also run blade ward because the uptime is way higher then other enchants
(I've seen it hit 4 stacks, i've never seen mongoose refresh itself 4 times within it's own duration.)
blood draining looks okay but feels way too rng for me, i know parry rating is rng but with parry rating i feel safer like i have a higher chance to take no damage instead of just a chance at healing myself =/

I agree, though I don't know if Mongoose can refresh itself once it is active, and if that is the case then that point is sort of moot. However, w/ 2-3 stacks being very typical it gives me 8-10% more avoidance...quite often...which I feel is more beneficial than a heal for 2200. I prefer the proactive approach this enchant has rather than reactive I guess.

[Nillo]

Added to the Ex-Sticky section of Stickies.

Why is the only Sticky, that is left , the one about stupid paladin ideas? :!

I'd rather have 3 FAQ stickied (Holy,Prot,Ret), than any of that fun + crap stuff !_!, and I really don't think that 3 FAQs stickied would be too much.

[Aedh]

I agree, though I don't know if Mongoose can refresh itself once it is active, and if that is the case then that point is sort of moot. However, w/ 2-3 stacks being very typical it gives me 8-10% more avoidance...quite often...which I feel is more beneficial than a heal for 2200. I prefer the proactive approach this enchant has rather than reactive I guess.

I've watched mongoose refresh it's self on several occasions. Although to be honest I'm using mongoose more because it looks sexy. If someone could crunch numbers on the average stack size and uptime of BW vs mongoose I might go to BW.

Why is the only Sticky, that is left , the one about stupid paladin ideas? :!

I'd rather have 3 FAQ stickied (Holy,Prot,Ret), than any of that fun + crap stuff !_!, and I really don't think that 3 FAQs stickied would be too much.

SECONDED!!!!!!!

We already know how hard it is for new people to click the stickies when they are right there. Now that they are effectively hidden, AND lumped in with some of the more outdated guides it's more likely for people to not read them.

And seriously, that paladin idea sticky is no where near as cool as the FAQs.

[Greengo]

Back: 225 armor OR 16 def

... OR 22 AGI - avoidance (dodge), mitigation (armor) and threat (crit) in one.
And paladin need less agi per 1% dodge than warr/dk 8)

BTW, check Theck's posts from maintankadin forum:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...l-out-of-dodge
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic