Should demo locks take priority on major SP upgrades?

[Xynthion]

Just wondering what you guys think. Assuming the demo lock is a solid, consistent raider and not some new person you just picked up trying to loot whore, should he take priority on getting major SP upgrades since it benefits not just the lock, but the entire raid as well?

[krasgoth]

Even as a demo lock, I'd have to say no. I wouldn't want loot priority upgrades just because I'm a demo lock. SP will come off your gear anyways, no need to snub others for a minor minor buff.

[Xynthion]

I'm talking noticeable upgrades, like 100 SP from a weapon or trinket, not minor upgrades like 30 SP from pants and some haste, etc. At this point, the SP gain is significant enough to have a significant effect on not just the lock but the whole raid.

[Goatonlb]

It's still got to be a gain. If it's a large upgrade for him, then it's likely not MORE of an upgrade for the other guy - combined with the fact that his upgrade helps everyone, not just that 1 other guy. I still don't think it should happen though.

[OnlineSamantha]

If it means I'll get BiS faster - then yes ;D

[Deleted]

I think it depends on the system you already use. If you have a loot council or similar it might be fair to make this a deciding factor when there really is no other way of deciding between two or three raiders, but as a general rule I don't think that the relatively minor gain to the rest of the raid justifies potentially pissing off the rest of your SP users. No matter how progression oriented your guild is, people like loot and should be allowed to expect that they have a fair chance of getting upgrades when they drop.

[Xynthion]

Based on your first post, it looks like you're a bit butthurt about not receiving an upgrade over a newer player in your guild... in which case you want to justify it with a thread like this.

Honestly, an upgrade is an upgrade, whether you're a demo lock or a holy paladin, and I might be upset that I didn't get a significant upgrade, but saying I should get it because I'm a demo lock is kind of a weak argument

You know what they say about making assumptions...:P I made this topic because I'm the demo lock in my guild, but I've passed on a lot of upgrades (we do loot council, and I'm an officer, so it looks bad if I loot whore). The biggest upgrade I've gotten lately is Rigormortis, where I and the mages that linked all linked Frost Needle, and all had about the same gearscore anyway.

The reason I ask this is because a lot of guilds, including ours, has a main goal of gearing up tanks before everyone else. But under that same logic, why wouldn't you gear up the person who not only does high dps (not unusual to be top 5 dps), but also buffs the other casters more depending on how good his gear is?

I'm not asking this to justify me loot whoring because I'm the demo lock (I actually have a lower gs than a lot of our casters). I'm just asking what your thoughts were on the matter. Quit being an idiot and making pointless attacks on character because you don't want to be jipped on gear for not being the demo lock.

[vilebio]

Tanks (and sometimes healers) are the only class(es) that should get loot prio imo.

I never liked this trend. I can understand the tank aspect but at the same time here aren't many tanks. I'm actually glad Blizzard is adding in DPS-race encounters to encourage the responsibility dps have in fights. The old model of "As long as the tanks and healers do their job, we'll eventually win" made quality dps a luxury. The performance of dps classes should be held to the same standard which in turn maintains a level field in regards to loot priority. Now, are any of the dps-race encounters tuned to the point that gear trumps skill? No. But gear certainly helps and good gear can be produce tremendous shifts in certain classes performance.

**Sorry, forgot to note my actual reply: No, tragically I still support equality even though having a SP stacking Demo lock is a great addition to any raid.**

[Xynthion]

edit - i think the real issues here is that your guild does loot council and you are feeling miffed that someone else got loot over you. It's one of the reasons why i never play in guilds that choose to do loot council. Someone always ends up butthurt.

Wow, would you guys quit making assumptions? I never once said I was upset that I didn't get gear. I'm one of the officers in the guild. I AM the loot council. I DO pass on major upgrades ALL THE TIME to distribute loot. I was looking for discussion on the topic, not ad hominem attacks, so stick to the topic and quit making baseless assumptions that are completely irrelevant to the topic.

[cerebrum3000]

I play as raids as a demonology warlock or destruction warlock and I say No. Gear eventually comes your way, having farmed Karazhan for 6 months before finally seeing an item I wanted drop, and in ICC seeing an item drop 3 weeks in a row before I go it loot comes your way.

Also to make your question unbias unless your trying to lead people should of probably said

"Just wondering what you guys think. Should a demo take priority on getting major SP upgrades over other casters?"

Each dps class can benefit from an upgrade in their own way. Does it suck that a new guy get's an item before you? Yes. Does it suck that player who does less dps get an item before you? Yes. Just wait patiently and you'll get what you want, IF (look at that word, I said IF) you hate waiting then you shouldn't be raiding

[rabbimojo]

Answer: No, because the gain of the raid is still pretty small, and really, morale from a fair (and unbiased) loot system will have far more of an effect on the raid's performance than a couple extra SP.

[Xynthion]

Just as a follow-up question, what is the point of having an rDPS demo lock instead of gearing as a pDPS demo lock if the lock isn't going to take priority on upgrades? If the rDPS gain from letting the demo lock take the upgrades first is that insignificant, why even have a rDPS BiS set at all (see elitistjerks)?

Again, seeking discussion on the topic, not ad hominem attacks, thanks.

[krasgoth]

Just as a follow-up question, what is the point of having an rDPS demo lock instead of gearing as a pDPS demo lock if the lock isn't going to take priority on upgrades? If the rDPS gain from letting the demo lock take the upgrades first is that insignificant, why even have a rDPS BiS set at all (see elitistjerks)?

Again, seeking discussion on the topic, not ad hominem attacks, thanks.

Pretty much what Wooshie said. Unless your demo lock is doing the most damage out of all your casters (in which case, something is very obviously wrong, or your demo lock doesn't need gear in the first place) it's not worth specifically gearing the Demo lock for a raid buff.

From a hugely min-maxing standpoint, you could argue it's worth doing it, but if you're basing your gearing system on reality:

A) People will hate the demo lock for instantly receiving upgrades others can use.
B) The effect of the better gear, before the warlock ever equips it, is negated by how others perform badly.
C) You'll never notice the difference on enrage timers in the first place, whether you do this or not.

[ryan1mcq]

should he take priority on getting major SP upgrades

No, other casters will not be pleased

[avengingbt]

It really depends on your guild. In most guilds - No, it's just not really fair on the others. If however you're in a guild purely focused on fast progression and world firsts, it could be a possibility to marginally increase your raid buffs.

Is it actually going to make any difference? Not really.

[Xynthion]

Unless your demo lock is doing the most damage out of all your casters (in which case, something is very obviously wrong, or your demo lock doesn't need gear in the first place) it's not worth specifically gearing the Demo lock for a raid buff.

I hate this kind of thinking. Demo lock is currently top AoE dps class and spec. Not only that, but any fights with adds, such as Saurfang, allow the demo lock to get the Soulfire proc and increase his dps further than what simcraft already places them at (which, if you don't check Simcraft on EJ forums, Affliction lock in a Patchwerk style fight with all buffs would theoretically be 10951 dps, and demo lock would be in second place at 10680). This isn't the massive 1k+ dps difference of pre-3.3 days, and due to nature of a lot of fights, this isn't realistic anyway. Demo lock could easily be first an any fight where the execute phase is obscenely long or where there are adds to start Soulfire spamming a little sooner. I did 9.7k dps on 10 man Saurfang last night. I honestly doubt I could have done that as affliction.

Also, mages aren't in the amazing place people claim they are. If they have to move, it really hampers their dps. I've never been beaten by a mage on Putricide for instance. So the "other casters" part of that statement bothers me too.

What it's going to come down to is player skill. There are some warlocks in my guild who are terrible at affliction and stick to destro, but I always beat them in dps, despite his much better trinket combination. Is that player skill? Maybe. But it's also the spec. Demo isn't the redheaded stepchild of the warlock tree anymore, so drop this mentality (or find a good demo lock player for your guild).

[krasgoth]

I hate this kind of thinking. Demo lock is currently top AoE dps class and spec. Not only that, but any fights with adds, such as Saurfang, allow the demo lock to get the Soulfire proc and increase his dps further than what simcraft already places them at (which, if you don't check Simcraft on EJ forums, Affliction lock in a Patchwerk style fight with all buffs would theoretically be 10951 dps, and demo lock would be in second place at 10680). This isn't the massive 1k+ dps difference of pre-3.3 days, and due to nature of a lot of fights, this isn't realistic anyway. Demo lock could easily be first an any fight where the execute phase is obscenely long or where there are adds to start Soulfire spamming a little sooner. I did 9.7k dps on 10 man Saurfang last night. I honestly doubt I could have done that as affliction.

Also, mages aren't in the amazing place people claim they are. If they have to move, it really hampers their dps. I've never been beaten by a mage on Putricide for instance. So the "other casters" part of that statement bothers me too.

What it's going to come down to is player skill. There are some warlocks in my guild who are terrible at affliction and stick to destro, but I always beat them in dps, despite his much better trinket combination. Is that player skill? Maybe. But it's also the spec. Demo isn't the redheaded stepchild of the warlock tree anymore, so drop this mentality (or find a good demo lock player for your guild).

*scratches his head* I don't understand why you keep referencing my mentality in that I hate locks or something. Like I said, I play demo in my guild. Great, demo is good on trash dps (Who cares?) , why even mention that? Oho, demo can buff our trash damage, so we can get to bosses 15 seconds faster! Then players go to the washroo... damnit.

What exactly was your damage on adds on your 9.7k Saurfang? I bet it was half the damage of your arcane mages! If not, your arcane mages are really bad. Just an FYI, destro far outperforms demo on Saurfang for the add control alone, it's nice that there's big shiny numbers hampering how you see it, but the fight would be easier if you were destro, doing 6k dps, and shadowfuried all the adds instead of mashing shadowbolt at saurfang and stealing a decimation proc at the end of the adds.

Not even the point though, I raid as demo, I know very well what demo is capable of, and I know very well that demo shouldn't be pumping out top damage in every fight, simply because most fights require target switching, which demo is very bad at. The only thing that gives it a saving grace is decimate procs on adds, otherwise damage is, and always will be bad on switches.

[Xynthion]

Most sims are performed with BiS gear and don't take into account burst dps versus sustained dps, movement involved, or target switching.

Mages have far superior burst dps than warlocks do, and where mobs need to die quickly, it is a better choice to put mage burst than warlock dots.

EJ provides excellent mathmatical simulations, and it gives you an idea of your maximum potential to play towards.

Maximum potential will bear almost zero relevance to your guild as a whole, especially when player mistakes are not calculated.

Exactly. And tell me, what fights in ICC require burst dps? Adds on Saurfang? That procs Soulfire for me as demo so that I can climb up the meters either Soulfiring remaining adds or Saurfang. Putricide? See the above. Princes? Well, my SB heading toward the prince right as it switches tends to proc Soulfire as I move to the next one, so it's not hard to get a high dps# there either. Ice tombs? Well, seeing as we don't wanna quite burst them ASAP so that we can get rid of debuffs/LoS...

In all of those fights, when is burst absolutely necessary? And how does that hamper a demo lock? It doesn't. It actually favors them more than Affliction. I've done Putricide as both affliction and demo, and I'd much rather be demo for that fight. Same for Saurfang.

As far as movement goes, our pet is always on the boss unless it's in the air, meaning at least ~2k dps (I think more like, 1.6k or so but let's round up). We still use some dots, and since demo has to lifetap a lot, times when we have to move are perfect for doing so.

Oh, and since you edited this line in there...

You have had alot of decent replies in this thread, and i believe you have enough replies to know what the correct decision for your guild would be.

This isn't about what my guild should do. It's not about what I'm going to do. We'll continue to distribute loot fairly. What I was looking for was a discussion on the topic itself since many guilds prioritize gearing tanks over everyone else first (something I stated earlier I believe).

[Xynthion]

*scratches his head* I don't understand why you keep referencing my mentality in that I hate locks or something. Like I said, I play demo in my guild. Great, demo is good on trash dps (Who cares?) , why even mention that? Oho, demo can buff our trash damage, so we can get to bosses 15 seconds faster! Then players go to the washroo... damnit.

Why do people always say no one cares about trash? You're saying no one honestly looks at meters and says "omg they're doing 30k dps!" during that? You honestly don't think clearing trash quickly is important? I remember when ICC first came out joining a pug rep farm run on my druid and it was painful how long trash took because our highest AoE dps was barely breaching 10k. Are you telling me you've never once wiped on trash before? Ever? Really? Because if so, you either didn't do content till it was nerfed to the ground/outgeared or you have one amazing guild.

What exactly was your damage on adds on your 9.7k Saurfang? I bet it was half the damage of your arcane mages! If not, your arcane mages are really bad. Just an FYI, destro far outperforms demo on Saurfang for the add control alone, it's nice that there's big shiny numbers hampering how you see it, but the fight would be easier if you were destro, doing 6k dps, and shadowfuried all the adds instead of mashing shadowbolt at saurfang and stealing a decimation proc at the end of the adds.

You realize I said 10 man Saurfang right? I did a large share of the damage to the adds. In 25 man, between Typhooning boomkins, Thunderstorming shamans, grounding totem/frost traps, the need for Shadowfury is hardly there. If your targeted add is dying so quickly so that you can't get off enough damage to come close to the other casters, pick a different add. Or maybe you just have too many ranged and should stay on the boss.

Not even the point though, I raid as demo, I know very well what demo is capable of, and I know very well that demo shouldn't be pumping out top damage in every fight, simply because most fights require target switching, which demo is very bad at. The only thing that gives it a saving grace is decimate procs on adds, otherwise damage is, and always will be bad on switches.

Demo isn't the most amazing at switching adds, that is true. But it certainly has lower ramp up time than affliction, and the decimation procs to deal with other adds/the boss more than make up for it. If you're not keeping up with the other dps (or passing them) on target switch fights, you're doing something wrong.

[krasgoth]

Why do people always say no one cares about trash? You're saying no one honestly looks at meters and says "omg they're doing 30k dps!" during that? You honestly don't think clearing trash quickly is important? I remember when ICC first came out joining a pug rep farm run on my druid and it was painful how long trash took because our highest AoE dps was barely breaching 10k. Are you telling me you've never once wiped on trash before? Ever? Really? Because if so, you either didn't do content till it was nerfed to the ground/outgeared or you have one amazing guild.

Clearing trash quickly is important and I like to see big numbers during trash. I'll be the first to admit that charging in, immolation aura and seeding my face off is fun as hell and always makes me smile. It just has no impact on your raid because unfortunately, time gets taken up by other things that you gain from killing trash quickly. You wipe on trash, just not on ICC trash... when was the last time you wiped to trash in ICC, other than 3 traps going off at once in the middle of pulling 2 groups? There's not a lot of threatening trash in there...

You realize I said 10 man Saurfang right? I did a large share of the damage to the adds. In 25 man, between Typhooning boomkins, Thunderstorming shamans, grounding totem/frost traps, the need for Shadowfury is hardly there. If your targeted add is dying so quickly so that you can't get off enough damage to come close to the other casters, pick a different add. Or maybe you just have too many ranged and should stay on the boss.

No matter what add you pick, your damage is going to be subpar on them, unfortunately. Not sure what raid setup you're using, unless you go in with stacked Boom/lock/ele/sp/mage combo, but I've never seen *anyone* pull 9.7k *and* do "a large share" of damage to the adds in 10man. Sounds a little high to me.

Demo isn't the most amazing at switching adds, that is true. But it certainly has lower ramp up time than affliction, and the decimation procs to deal with other adds/the boss more than make up for it. If you're not keeping up with the other dps (or passing them) on target switch fights, you're doing something wrong.

It's not that you can't keep up, it's just that add switching is bad. Always will be. My point was the only saving grace of demo on fights where you have to switch is the fact you get decimation procs off the adds as they die. Otherwise, your add damage is pretty much terrible compared to most other classes.