Paladin -- Nerf the threat capacity of HoR and SoC?

[Palatrino]

"Paladin -- Nerf the threat capacity of HoR and SoC."

I havn't tanked with any other class, but is it really that op atm?

No it's not a qq-thread for this, I'm just asking those who play other tanking classes what you think. Yes paladins have it easy to get threat, but thought Blizzard fixed so it's amazingly easy for all classes to gain threat now, specially while aoe tanking.

Or have I just been in a lucid dream :O

[Deleted]

Threat generation is still a oh-well-it-has-to-be-done kinda thing. It's not your biggest worry during a boss encounter, you generally only have to think about moving and taunting, so all in all, I think it's okay to give tanking an extra challenge, also, pulling around 9k TPS with DPS'ers doing 7k TPS and down depending on class, shows that it needs a "nerf". I hate that word, since it has a negative angle, but sometimes "nerfs" makes the game better.

[Ger9nG]

Playing around with SoC was one of my first tests done in heroics.
I loved not having to pay attention at all with a slow weapon, but over time it got boring. It's all an AoE nerf, that us paladins have got it all too easy with atm anyway. Scaling down AoE threat will not make this harder for us, we'll just have to pay more attention to our targets during AoE packs and heroics.

Though I did like the DPS potential that lies withing having a slow mainhander with dps stats for the heroics. When the tank pulls 4k plus, you know you're up for quick runs.

[Horn]

All tanks have AoE threat within reasonable limits; Paladin's threat just seems to be on the higher end of this bracket of 'reasonability' and thus you have complaints such as "I'm a tank, I have 3 apples. Why does the Paladin tank have 4? Unfair. QQ."

Paladin threat while AoE tanking should be lowered, in moderation. Unfortunately, we all know Blizzard doesn't do things in moderation.

[Ronark]

All tanks have AoE threat within reasonable limits; Paladin's threat just seems to be on the higher end of this bracket of 'reasonability' and thus you have complaints such as "I'm a tank, I have 3 apples. Why does the Paladin tank have 4? Unfair. QQ."

Paladin threat while AoE tanking should be lowered, in moderation. Unfortunately, we all know Blizzard doesn't do things in moderation.

I think Blizzard is overseeing the issue, in that it isn't in how HoR and SoC work, but rather that Paladins are the only class that has 100% uptime on AE threat in their normal rotation. Rather, they are the only class that includes a near 100% uptime AE effect in both DPS and TPS roles, and this should be the thing to change- Either add an insentive to not use Consecration (i.e. another ability shares a CD with it) or make Consecration have a larger cooldown (20-30 seconds, to bring it in line with DnD).

[iktankniet]

I think Blizzard is overseeing the issue, in that it isn't in how HoR and SoC work, but rather that Paladins are the only class that has 100% uptime on AE threat in their normal rotation. Rather, they are the only class that includes a near 100% uptime AE effect in both DPS and TPS roles, and this should be the thing to change- Either add an insentive to not use Consecration (i.e. another ability shares a CD with it) or make Consecration have a larger cooldown (20-30 seconds, to bring it in line with DnD).

which would fuck it up for ret paladins also..they will not make it a spec specific change if they do it your way.

[john879]

What is the real reason everyone wants the nerf. Seriously. Are you being replaced by a pally tank in your raids? The way I look at it leave them alone. Our raids normally consists of dk, warr, pally tanks. If we are running 10 man, it just depends on who signs up. None of our tanks have trouble with aoe tanking. Yes the pally has it a bit easier. Not that much of a difference to call out for a nerf. So why all the hate.

[Eurytos]

Hmmm, I think I have to disagree with you on this one Ron, in part.

I think it has a lot to do with the combination of HotR(and its Glyph) and SoC. SoC is hitting 3 targets every 1.5 seconds due to weapon swing. And it is hitting a ton of other targets everytime your use HotR. Every 6 seconds. Thats massive AE threat, whereas if you were using, say, SoV to AE tank it would only be putting up extra dots on the target your HotR hits, and no cleave. If more paladins used SoV to AE tank, it might be a little more in line with what they want. A little more tab targeting is needed when using that seal. Ofc, there are plenty of points to pick up SoC in a tank build so most of us are using it.

[Ronark]

which would fuck it up for ret paladins also..they will not make it a spec specific change if they do it your way.

The idea would be:

Single target fight: Use ability X, which does 100% of consecration's damage to only 1 target, at 30% the mana cost of Consecration. Puts a cooldown on Consecration.

Multi target fight: Use Consecration, which puts a cooldown on ability X.

However, in both cases the cooldown length of Consecration would be increased. So, say Consecration has a 20 second cooldown, and Ability X has a 8 second cooldown. Sure, there would be a slight drop in Ret AE DPS, but this can be fixed by talents in the Ret tree (+damage tied into a talent to even out the damage of this new Consecrate to be the same as the former, etc.)

[Corathor]

Seal of Command.. from my understanding it only procs off single target abilities.. IE: it would not proc off of HotR... so what's the problem?

[Ronark]

Seal of Command.. from my understanding it only procs off single target abilities.. IE: it would not proc off of HotR... so what's the problem?

The issue is that Prot paladins have fast weapons, so SoC procs frequently off of white hits (Does it proc off of ShoR? I dont remember). HoR has a 6 second cooldown, and again, is "built-into" their rotation, guarenteeing that every 6 seconds you are doing some AE threat.

TL;DR version of the reason behind the possible nerfs is that Paladins do too much Passive AE threat (And moreso too mcuh Passive damage: a lot of set-and-forget buttons/skills/etc)

[Avido]

Seal of Command.. from my understanding it only procs off single target abilities.. IE: it would not proc off of HotR... so what's the problem?

It works with HotR.

HotR hits 3(4 if glyphed) targets. And SoC bounces off of 3 targets from each one of those hits.
I love it, I think its a bit OP when I, as a pally tank can pull 8k dps in icc 10 trash, but, figured I'd just enjoy it while I can

[Nexus2189]

Seal of Command.. from my understanding it only procs off single target abilities.. IE: it would not proc off of HotR... so what's the problem?

Im pretty sure it procs off of every single hit hammer does

[Nitez]

This would be a much needed nerf, and would hopefully signal a shift back to "lets CC a few mobs" instead of "we have a paladin tank, just AoE"

[Horn]

The idea would be:

Single target fight: Use ability X, which does 100% of consecration's damage to only 1 target, at 30% the mana cost of Consecration. Puts a cooldown on Consecration.

Multi target fight: Use Consecration, which puts a cooldown on ability X.

However, in both cases the cooldown length of Consecration would be increased. So, say Consecration has a 20 second cooldown, and Ability X has a 8 second cooldown. Sure, there would be a slight drop in Ret AE DPS, but this can be fixed by talents in the Ret tree (+damage tied into a talent to even out the damage of this new Consecrate to be the same as the former, etc.)

This kind of idea has been tossed around a fair bit and I rather like it. Having to use AoE abilities to sustain single target dps is really not a great system, especially on movement oriented fights coupled with our incredibly long ramp time.

[Ronark]

This kind of idea has been tossed around a fair bit and I rather like it. Having to use AoE abilities to sustain single target dps is really not a great system, especially on movement oriented fights coupled with our incredibly long ramp time.

On some abilities it is fine for a Melee class to have AE abilities in their rotation (WW, DS, Heart Strike, etc), but the thing is most classes have an alternative to using their resources on an AE ability or something else, which paladins don't. Paladins (unlike DKs, Warriors, and Bear druids) don't rely on a "fill up X to use Y" system, so we don't have "filler" attacks like Heroic Strike or Frost Strike to use when we have high resources.

I think the main problem has to do with what paladins have always had: a limited ability pool.

[luthe]

It works with HotR.

HotR hits 3(4 if glyphed) targets. And SoC bounces off of 3 targets from each one of those hits.
I love it, I think its a bit OP when I, as a pally tank can pull 8k dps in icc 10 trash, but, figured I'd just enjoy it while I can

it generates a single hit per target using HotR as well as Divine Storm, while cleaving on white swing and ShoR. The Cleave factor of SoCleave only works on single target abilities, ShoR is 3 hits of cleave, hotr (glyphed) is 4 hits hotr, and 4 hits socleave (it acts like a normal seal)

[Eurytos]

This kind of idea has been tossed around a fair bit and I rather like it. Having to use AoE abilities to sustain single target dps is really not a great system, especially on movement oriented fights coupled with our incredibly long ramp time.

Wait, what? Prot ramp up time? I'm not sure I follow what your talking about? Surely not SoV. SoV is at 5 stacks in about 5secs as prot.

[luthe]

This kind of idea has been tossed around a fair bit and I rather like it. Having to use AoE abilities to sustain single target dps is really not a great system, especially on movement oriented fights coupled with our incredibly long ramp time.

you probably have a 1.3 - 1.5 second swing timer raid buffed depending on your weapon, and HotR stacks SoV... what ramp up time?

[tekoix]

I can't wait till the nerf. That same day everyone will be qq'ing about the fact you can't start aoe'ing before the tank even hits them and you have to use md / tot every cd.