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  1. #1

    Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    I'm currently writing a paper on the ethical question "Is illegal downloading the same as stealing?" in which I compare the rights of the downloaders to those of the artists and record labels (among others). So now what has this to do with you? You get the exciting chance to look through my (extremely summarized) notes and see if I missed anything you'd deem obvious.

    The downloaders
    • People have the right to download materials which they already have a legal format of, for example downloading songs you also have the CD of.

    • All people have a right to privacy in their own home, which extends to your personal computer and according to most people also their internet activities.
    • File sharing has been a "right" for years, from lending books to copying songs on a tape recorder, copying DVDs and finally sharing files over the internet.
    • And a side-note here, people who download illegally are also the ones spending the most on legal media. Source


    The artists
    • Everyone deserves a fair wage/reward for their work. If the current situation persists, many labels will stop to exist and artists won't gain much profit from making CD's/selling singles on the internet.
    • Under the current copyright laws in most countries, copying of any sort is in fact illegal. (This is true for basically all materials that are under discussion, copyright lasts for at least 50 years (different for each country) and I doubt many people will complain about you downloading a TV series from the 60's.)
    • On the other hand artists are hurting their own fans and customers when assaulting illegal downloads, why else would you download something from them? [/lil]

    So like I said, a short overview of both groups' rights. You can of course discuss your opinions on downloads (whether they be legal or illegal) here as well.

  2. #2

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Well, in the bottom, it's stealing in my opinion.

    Those who download (including me) are taking advantage of a service without paying for it.

    It's have been said for ages but lets put it in a sequence:
    "You see a table of apples that's someon handing away for free. You ask him how he got the apples. He says that he got them from his neighbours tree and the neighbour doesn't know that he took them.
    You don't think anymore about it and takes an apple.
    Next day you see the same guy standing there with apples, this time he have an old man beside him. The guy points at you, the old man walks up to you and say: "You ate one of my apples I want money for it."

    What do you do? Did you do something bad that took stolen fruit yes. Did the man had the rights to claim money for this? Maybe not."

    You can go about it for a long time. But in the bottom piracy is stealing! There are people that makes money from the sales of theese objects. Therefore you are taking their money away from them.
    Happy troll since 2005

  3. #3

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    I find it stealing, because Artist work hard on these songs, movies and so on, just to have a good percent of people going and downloading it legally, or illegally.

  4. #4

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Daginni
    I find it stealing, because Artist work hard on these songs, movies and so on, just to have a good percent of people going and downloading it legally, or illegally.
    The problem with your comment is that there is a huge difference between the artists who make the albums and the labels who sell them and get most of the profits. Artists mainly make their profit from concerts and live performances in general. Which you could consider their job.

  5. #5

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Panoramixe
    The problem with your comment is that there is a huge difference between the artists who make the albums and the labels who sell them and get most of the profits. Artists mainly make their profit from concerts and live performances in general. Which you could consider their job.
    Perhaps, but ether way, your still stealing, even if you try to justify it by saying they were stealing too.

  6. #6
    The Hedgehog Elementium's Avatar
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    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    I think if it is too a point where Artists are feeling it in their paychecks then yeah crack down. If people don't shut down pirate sites then artists don't make money and if artists don't make money they don't make music.


  7. #7

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Downloading illegally is stealing, there is no way to justify it. It should only be acceptable if you have proof that you own it or did own it at some time. I believe that if you bought...say...a blu-ray and somehow it got lost or broken. You should legally be able to download it and watch it so long as you use it for your own use. If you download it and make a dozen copies to give out to your friends...thats a no no. If you download it, make one copy...and let people borrow...that should be the same as if you lent your copy out. Again, only if you have proof that you owned it at one time though.

  8. #8
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    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by WillfulHarbinger
    Downloading illegally is stealing, there is no way to justify it. It should only be acceptable if you have proof that you own it or did own it at some time. I believe that if you bought...say...a blu-ray and somehow it got lost or broken. You should legally be able to download it and watch it so long as you use it for your own use. If you download it and make a dozen copies to give out to your friends...thats a no no. If you download it, make one copy...and let people borrow...that should be the same as if you lent your copy out. Again, only if you have proof that you owned it at one time though.
    Problem is: You don't own it. Even after "buying" a movie, it's not your property. It belongs to whoever made it, and you have a license to use the single copy you "own". If that copy is destroyed or damaged, you don't have the rights to reproduce it.

    Also:
    Stealing vs File Sharing vs Piracy

  9. #9

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Thanks for the image Annoying, it gave me a great idea for some depth and a little entertainment in my report.

    As for Medium, I did read all of that and must say on most points I agree. Something that I didn't find yet, however, is a solution.

    In my mind changes in the entertainment industry are well overdue. There are some very good signs of evolution though. For example TV series are being streamed online (legally) by the CW among others (US only for the moment).
    My solution is to go a step further and put legal downloads of your product (in this case TV episodes) in which you incorporate advertisements. It's been proven to work for broadcasting, so why shouldn't it work for the entire entertainment industry? When movies are out on DVD for (let's say) 2 weeks, allow legal downloads. When your CD has been out for two weeks, put all of the tracks for free download and streaming on your official website. (The smaller artists already do this and I'd figure they are the ones who actually need to earn money.)

    This solution does 2 things:
    1) You can earn a lot through advertisements. Not only the ones in the product, but also the ones on your website.
    (A side-note here. You can combine this with a very simple log-in feature so you have a database of consumers, with their interests, you could e-mail special offers to. For example when their favorite band comes to their country/state or when a sequel of a movie they downloaded comes out in the cinema. )
    2) You get people on your website, where they'll see others of your products, your live shows, other movies coming to a cinema near you, etc ...

  10. #10

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Short answer, yes stealing intellectual and creative property is stealing.
    By very definition stealing is bad ethics.


  11. #11
    Mechagnome Fuze's Avatar
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    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Panoramixe
    Thanks for the image Annoying, it gave me a great idea for some depth and a little entertainment in my report.

    As for Medium, I did read all of that and must say on most points I agree. Something that I didn't find yet, however, is a solution.

    In my mind changes in the entertainment industry are well overdue. There are some very good signs of evolution though. For example TV series are being streamed online (legally) by the CW among others (US only for the moment).
    My solution is to go a step further and put legal downloads of your product (in this case TV episodes) in which you incorporate advertisements. It's been proven to work for broadcasting, so why shouldn't it work for the entire entertainment industry? When movies are out on DVD for (let's say) 2 weeks, allow legal downloads. When your CD has been out for two weeks, put all of the tracks for free download and streaming on your official website. (The smaller artists already do this and I'd figure they are the ones who actually need to earn money.)

    This solution does 2 things:
    1) You can earn a lot through advertisements. Not only the ones in the product, but also the ones on your website.
    (A side-note here. You can combine this with a very simple log-in feature so you have a database of consumers, with their interests, you could e-mail special offers to. For example when their favorite band comes to their country/state or when a sequel of a movie they downloaded comes out in the cinema. )
    2) You get people on your website, where they'll see others of your products, your live shows, other movies coming to a cinema near you, etc ...
    i totally agree with but i'd say after a certain let's say Dvds Sold they put them online for free downloads 2 weeks seems like a short period especially after a while ppl will stop buying and wait 2 weeks to download it

  12. #12
    Deleted

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Panoramixe
    People have the right to download materials which they already have a legal format of, for example downloading songs you also have the CD of.
    I'm fairly sure this is a very marginal practice. Most people who claim this are most likely lying. Why download something you already own?

    All people have a right to privacy in their own home, which extends to your personal computer and according to most people also their internet activities.
    People have a right to privacy in their own home, but that right is revoked when you do something illegal in your home. You're not allowed to kill anyone in your home and get away with it claiming you have privacy. Same applies to any other law. What people are concerned of, on the other hand, is that they will have their internet usage tracked even if they don't do anything illegal. Finding out someone broke to law by downloading illegally is hard without tracking their internet usage. But just because proving you broke the law is hard doesn't mean you're allowed to do it.

    File sharing has been a "right" for years, from lending books to copying songs on a tape recorder, copying DVDs and finally sharing files over the internet.
    copying songs on a tape recorder and copying DVDs was never a right. It is just as illegal as file sharing over the internet. It just never became such a big business due to the manual nature of the crime.

  13. #13
    The Hedgehog Elementium's Avatar
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    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoying
    Problem is: You don't own it. Even after "buying" a movie, it's not your property. It belongs to whoever made it, and you have a license to use the single copy you "own". If that copy is destroyed or damaged, you don't have the rights to reproduce it.

    Also:
    Stealing vs File Sharing vs Piracy
    Bingo.

    If you buy a book and that book gets destroyed you can't just walk into a book store grab another copy and walk out saying "it's ok I bought this before".


  14. #14

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Obviously I'm a bit biased on the topic.

    I study Marketing so all I see the big companies do is miss huge chances to use these file sharing networks to promote their product and misuse their own customers. So from a marketing perspective they're being dumb asses.

    But for the big labels (and to a lesser extent movie studios) to survive, they have to be able to keep a big grasp on their artists. So you have to consider their profit, employees and contribution to society as well. (taxes and sponsorship)

  15. #15

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    For me, If I download it, it means I wasn't planning on buying it in the first place so they aren't really missing out on anything. I only really download recorded TV series though.

  16. #16

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by RouVix
    copying songs on a tape recorder and copying DVDs was never a right. It is just as illegal as file sharing over the internet. It just never became such a big business due to the manual nature of the crime.
    Actually in Belgium there's a tax called Auvibel which makes copying for home use legal, as long as you don't sell them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RouVix
    I'm fairly sure this is a very marginal practice. Most people who claim this are most likely lying. Why download something you already own?
    For example we have a few dozen videotapes at home and some hardware to transfer them to a computer, but let's say it's easier to just download them again then go through the mess that is that system.

  17. #17

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    As far as I feel about this, I think the corporations need to let go a bit. But look at things like iTunes, Spotify, Hulu and Steam, excellent new ways of selling or showing media in a very accessible and modern way.

    I think this stuff is the way things should be, but it could ofcourse get better. Lower prices and higher availability would lower the piracy considerably, in my opinion. How to go about doing that though, is out of my league. Though if the companies that create the games are also the ones publishing them, we'd get rid of one "problem". Publishers such as EA, Vivendi and Activision. And we all know and probably share what most others feel about publishers like EA.


    The industry needs to renew itself.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome lzsg's Avatar
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    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    I can't really convince myself that file sharing is justifiable in any way, since you're indirectly stealing from the makers of the product. It's leeching them of money and if more and more people start doing it, at some point (far) into the future no one's going to have the money to produce music on a large scale.
    As many others have said, however, record companies etc partly have themselves to blame for this. If they had kept up with technology and made their music/films/whatever as accessible as the pirated stuff is, by streaming, paid downloading etc, that would probably have prevented a lot of the file sharing in the first place. I know a lot of the downloading I've done has had more to do with the easy access than everything being free (I like to tell myself that, anyway).

    That said, it's never justifiable in my eyes, no matter how stupid the record companies are.
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

  19. #19

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by lzsg
    I can't really convince myself that file sharing is justifiable in any way, since you're indirectly stealing from the makers of the product. It's leeching them of money and if more and more people start doing it, at some point (far) into the future no one's going to have the money to produce music on a large scale.
    Music for example has been "free" for quite a while already, even before the internet. Radio makes its money by putting advertisements in between songs, no reason you can't do the same on the internet with banners, some in-file advertisement and e-mail marketing.
    TV shows, series and (old) movies are also "free" (cable isn't that big of a cost) to watch, just because there are advertisements. It's even easier to advertise on the internet and you can actually calculate the benefits of a campaign there.
    So it's just them not adjusting to technology, like you said. I really can't feel sorry for them making less of a profit.

    In my case I only download things I can't find anywhere legally (like old TV series and cartoons, good luck finding those on a DVD) or series the networks stream on their site themselves. (Like the CW) The rest I'll try to download legally as long as it doesn't take me more than 15 minutes to find.

  20. #20

    Re: Downloading and you, the exciting world of corporate ethics

    The main thing that I find interesting about downloading movies:
    Why is it only the studios and not the theater chains themselves (like regal cinemas) that complain about it? If there really is an effect, then shouldnt the theaters that actually show the movies be enraged by piracy as well?

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