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  1. #1

    3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Patch 3.3.3 - Random Dungeons Changes
    Patch 3.3.3 should be deployed during the next maintenance on live servers and it's time to mention a few interesting changes to the Dungeon Finder that I forgot to report in the past weeks. Tons of minor changes have been made to make your life easier but there are two changes that will probably make you very happy.

    First, the patch notes mention a change to "skip" the introduction of Culling of Stratholme. The change doesn't sound really exciting but it's actually a huge improvement over the previous version, you can basically talk to Chromie and skip all the roleplay to jump directly to the first Scourge wave. A couple of other tweaks have also been made to make the dungeon slightly faster and I'm pretty sure you won't skip it anymore. (Especially with a Deserter debuff extended to 30 minutes)



    The second major changes to the random dungeon system is the new vote kick system, you can now give a reason when you start a vote to kick someone. At some point it was mentioned in a blue post that the 15 minute limit before you can kick someone was gone, but it doesn't seem to be the case in the current build of the PTR. We will have to wait and see how it works on the live servers.



    These changes were in the patch notes but I think they're definitely worth a small dedicated spot on the front page. As a reminder, here is the Dungeon Finder part of the 3.3.3 Notes.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)

    • The Deserter debuff given to players who leave a dungeon prematurely when queuing via the Random Dungeon option has been increased to 30 minutes, up from 15 minutes. The cooldown for using the Random Dungeon option remains 15 minutes.
    • The Random Dungeon cooldown is no longer displayed as a debuff. Instead, players will see the cooldown time remaining displayed in the Dungeon Finder window when Random Dungeon or Random Heroic Dungeon is selected from the pull-down.
    • If a player in your party has the Deserter debuff, or is on cooldown from the Random Dungeon option, his or her character name will be displayed in the Dungeon Finder window listed as "On Cooldown," preventing the group from queuing.
    • Anyone in a dungeon party can now re-queue their group for a dungeon, as players will still be prompted whether or not to accept their chosen role.
    • Players who use the Vote Kick option will now be prompted to provide a reason for kicking a party member. This reason will be presented to everyone in the party except for the person voted to be kicked.
    • When joining as a group, more generous level requirements will be used instead of Random Dungeon level requirements so that players of different levels joining together will be eligible for a greater number of dungeons.
    • Parties randomly created via the Dungeon Finder will always be arranged in the party interface from top to bottom in the following order: tank, healer, damage, damage, damage.
    • If a random party is created via the Dungeon Finder and a player cannot roll Need on an item, a reason will now be provided.
    Cataclysm Tanking Cooldowns: Feedback
    Originally Posted by Nethaera (Blue Tracker)
    We’re currently working on the tanking cooldowns for tanks in Cataclysm. We’re interested in feedback from the community on what makes cooldowns fun and useful. For example, what is the sweet spot in cooldown duration between an ability with such a short cooldown that you must mash it constantly versus an ability with such a long cooldown? Which current abilities are fun? Putting aside any rose-colored glasses, were there cooldowns in Burning Crusade or classic WoW that you miss in Lich King? What, in your minds, should the role be for talents and glyphs. For example, if glyphs shouldn’t reduce cooldowns, what can they do?

    We’re less interested for purposes of this specific discussion on class balance. Let’s try to keep the “who is overpowered?” discussions out of this thread. We want to focus on fun and useful with an eye towards the future.

    We intend to use this feedback to help make informed decisions when designing Cataclysm talents and abilities, but this is no guarantee that we will be implementing all suggestions or any particular suggestions from this thread. This is merely one of many tools that we plan to use for making the best possible decisions about continuing development.

    Thank you for your feedback.
    Blue posts
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Theorycrafting / Spreedshets and class balance
    Spreadsheets and simulations are awesome and some of them have become quite sophisticated. There are still plenty of situations where actual players can't get anywhere close to those theoretical maximums. Now there are other situations where really exceptional players can bump up against those predicted numbers. For most players, their potential dps (in game) is a lot more relevant than what the spreadsheet says their potential dps could be.

    As an example, imagine that Survival required a really punishing shot rotation. Very good players (the kind that get insane actions per second on Starcraft maybe) might eek 14,000 dps out of that rotation. Mere mortals might only get 9000 dps though. On the other hand, imagine Marks could pump out 10,000 dps for almost any level of player. If you're going by the spreadsheets alone, you'd be dumb not to play Survival. Going by your logs, you'd be dump not to play Marks (unless you're in the 1% bracket). You could come up with similar examples for one spec only beating the other with best possible gear, or one spec only beating the other on fights with no movement. And so on. (Source)

    Survavibility as a DPS
    Yeah, this is exactly what I was referring to. Survival does matter in terms of being able to beat the boss, and I think we would be in a better place if more dps players took some responsibility for survival instead of assuming the design was that they focus solely on dps and blame the game (or the healers) when they die. That doesn't have to mean socketing blue Stamina gems in every piece of armor. It could mean "Hey, maybe I can afford the 2 talent points for this survivability talent. That drops by maximum dps by 6%, but I'll do more damage alive than dead." (Source)

    Classes homogenization and tanking niches
    We try and prevent homogenization among classes when we can. It's actually very important to us and obviously more important to us than many players who would be satisfied with us just smearing critical abilities across all of the tank classes.

    Having said that, we don't think well-defined tank niches are very good for the game. We've even backed off of well-defined healing niches and we'll continue to do so even more in Cataclysm. It comes down to a numbers problem. In a 5-player dungeon you get one tank. If the dungeon happens to be an AE tanking dungeon (Shattered Halls comes to mind) then groups want a paladin and not another tank. Likewise if we positioned DKs as the magic tank, they'd be underpowered on any dungeon without a lot of magic damage. Now maybe that's okay for a 5-player run, but it gets a lot trickier when you're talking about a 10-player raid with 2 tanks. When you're up against the most challenging content, you'd likely want to swap out for the best tank for the encounter, which means keeping a stable of 4 tanking classes ready to come in at a moment's notice. Some amount of swapping is hard to discourage, but we definitely don't want to design dungeons around the expectation that your paladin tank doesn't mind sitting out on the single target fights just to shine on the AE ones. She'll miss out on a lot of badges for one.

    It is definitely a challenge to keep classes feeling unique while giving players enough flexibility that they don't feel like they constantly have to ask their friends to reroll and / or recruit the missing puzzle pieces into their social circle. (Source)

    "Perfect" DPS balance

    That's not actually a goal, or a realistic one anyway. I drop that 1% number a lot because it seems sometimes that's what the expectation is. The goal is that you should be able to play what you want and still be able to raid (and ideally PvP, but we're a lot farther from that). We've always said that taking on the most challenging content is going to take away some of your flexibility, and for the most part, players capable of beating that content are okay with that level of min / maxing. In fact, they kind of enjoy it.

    There's just no realistic way to have every dps spec in the game anywhere close to 1% of each other given how different the encounters and gear are, not to mention player skill. We'll continue to get as close as we can and will keep looking at specs that are just not taken seriously for raiding. I understand that may be a subjective call, just as the interpretation of "viable" is somewhat subjective. We determine it by looking at who is actually brought to raids as well as what their dps is when they do so. (Source)

    Hunter (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Beast Mastery in 3.3.3
    So what are you saying about those players who estimate BM will be very close to Survival with the changes? Are they wrong? If so, talk to them instead. We don't really expect the community to come to a consensus on anything, but on the other hand, when some players are saying "they're close" and some players are saying "they're not" then more than likely, someone is wrong.

    Again, if you really like BM, you should be able to raid as BM with this change. Your raid leader may ask you to respec for the hardest Icecrown fights, but if you're on those fights, then you're probably used to being asked to make specific changes in order to maximize even the most marginal efficiency gains. At that point "close enough" might not be enough. At that point swapping for a 1% dps gain might be worth it. We're not going to get every class within 1% of each other in every situation, and players on that content know that.

    On the other hand, if you've been wiping on normal Festergut for the last four weeks then I can almost promise you that swapping from BM to MM is not what's going to suddenly buy you success. (Source)

    Ferocious Inspiration in 3.3.3
    In 3.3.2, Ferocious Inspiration rank 3 says: When your pet scores a critical hit, all party and raid members have all damage increased by 3% for 10 sec. In addition, increases the damage dealt by Arcane Shot by 9%.

    In 3.3.3, Ferocious Inspiration rank 3 says: All party and raid members have all damage increased by 3% within 100 yards of your pet. In addition, increases the damage dealt by Arcane Shot and Steady Shot by 9%. (Source)

    Theorycrafting hunter specs in 3.3.3
    Using something like Shandara's dps spreadsheets in 3.3.3, yields something like 15,000 for Marks, and 13,500 for Survival and BM. BM may be slightly below, but it's not by much, and given that this is a spreadsheet and not a raid parse, I think it's safe to assume that's within the human margin for error.

    There was a recent interview with two of Paragon's hunters in which they offered that they thought BM and SV were close and MM was maybe 1500 ahead in best gear. That's pretty consistent with the numbers I pulled out of the air above.

    If you think sources like that are in error, feel free to bring that up. But you kinda need to do so before saying "every spreadsheet model" etc. point to a massive disparity. (Assuming what you're arguing about here was my saying BM and SV are close.)

    Ideally all three numbers are 15,000 and that's a good if probably unrealistic goal to shoot for. In the mean time, BM should be close enough to Survival that you can raid with it, given that there are plenty of Survival hunters raiding today. If you don't get anywhere near 15,000 dps today (and current hunters are closer to 11 to 12K as highest dps in Icecrown), then the delta is likely to be even smaller, perhaps below 1K. (Source)

    Mage (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Arcane Mage too easy?
    Players like to wave this banner, but it's just not true. If all you do is look at their damage logs, yes, a lot of damage comes from Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Does that mean any Arcane mage can faceroll his way to 12,000 dps? Hardly. The good mages have a lot of things to manage in the way of mana and cooldowns.

    "Requires skill" does not mean 20 sources of damage. It can also mean you have to juggle a lot to maximize the damage from 2 sources. That is the design of the mage in a nuthsell: a dominant nuke with a lot of infrastructure to prop up that nuke.

    Off topic, I know, but this is a myth that needs to stop getting perpetuated. (Source)

    Paladin (Forums / Talent Calculator)
    Using Seal of Command as Protection Paladin
    I'm not sure the answer is just to prevent Prot from using Seal of Command. We like sub-speccing to some extent. I think part of the problem is the way HoR and SoC interact, but that doesn't mean the solution has to be one of them dies in a fire. (Source)
    Realm Championships and the future of WoW TCG
    I'm not sure why I missed this post yesterday, but here is some reconforting news for TCG players. It looks like the Blazing Hippogryph and Wooly White Rhino (see Patch 3.3.3 Mounts will stay in the game as TCG rewards introduced with the next expansion. More information soon, I guess.
    Originally Posted by Bornakk (Blue Tracker)
    We wanted to take a minute and provide an update on the current status of this game. We want to reassure players that the TCG will continue, and look forward to releasing the Wrathgate and Icecrown expansions this spring and summer. The new plans are being finalized and there should be a full announcement by this weekend.

    Realm Championships will still take place in North America this weekend. All prizes will be awarded as announced at the event including iPods and Loot cards. Winners that receive a travel award will receive their information in approximately four to six weeks. Unfortunately, the trophies will not be ready for the event.

    These events will run according to the current World of Warcraft TCG and Miniatures tournament policies, and the current suspended player list will be enforced.

    We know it's been a chaotic few weeks, so just hang in there for a few more days.

  2. #2
    Deleted

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    If they are going to add that you can see, if persons get kicked and stuff like that, I finding it utter bullshit.
    Yet we all pay to play this game but we get punished.

  3. #3

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Finally the CoS change we have been waiting for \o/

  4. #4

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    There has been an additional change that hasn't been included in the patch notes: Anyone who joins your party while the dungeon is in progress will be teleported to the Dungeon Guide's current location. This makes it far less painful to replace members now.

  5. #5

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    gnomes are idd ugly ^^

    ... and The Heavens Shall Tremble.
    Lord of Agamaggan - EU.

  6. #6

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    cos changes are nice but increasing the deserter debuff still wont stop me from leaving ok on my resto shammy

    dont see why i should sit and wipe on spell flingers

  7. #7
    Deleted

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    The vote kick cooldown staying isn't a great news :-\, I was kind of looking forward to it. Especially since I was leveling through Outland a week ago and I saw several morons, especially this mage in Ramparts who was literally nerdraging because DK tank had regular blood tanking spec with 2h weapon, aka perfectly viable tanking spec, but no, tank= frost! He just wouldnt shut up, kept agressivly insulting the whole group and especially the tank, at that moment I was thinking "man, bring 3.3.3 asap".

  8. #8

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    "Arcane Mage too easy?
    Players like to wave this banner, but it's just not true. If all you do is look at their damage logs, yes, a lot of damage comes from Arcane Blast and Arcane Missiles. Does that mean any Arcane mage can faceroll his way to 12,000 dps? Hardly. The good mages have a lot of things to manage in the way of mana and cooldowns.

    "Requires skill" does not mean 20 sources of damage. It can also mean you have to juggle a lot to maximize the damage from 2 sources. That is the design of the mage in a nuthsell: a dominant nuke with a lot of infrastructure to prop up that nuke.

    Off topic, I know, but this is a myth that needs to stop getting perpetuated. (Source)
    "

    Thank you!
    H E R O E S

    \ "When I was a kid ... I used to wish some stranger would come and tell me my family wasn't really my family. They weren't bad people, they were just ... insignificant. And I wanted to be different. Special. I wanted to change. A new name, a new life. The watchmaker's son ... became a watchmaker. It is so futile. And I wanted to be ... important." \
    Sylar

  9. #9

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Quote Originally Posted by reve
    The vote kick cooldown staying isn't a great news :-\, I was kind of looking forward to it. Especially since I was leveling through Outland a week ago and I saw several morons, especially this mage in Ramparts who was literally nerdraging because DK tank had regular blood tanking spec with 2h weapon, aka perfectly viable tanking spec, but no, tank= frost! He just wouldnt shut up, kept agressivly insulting the whole group and especially the tank, at that moment I was thinking "man, bring 3.3.3 asap".
    i was hoping that with 3.3.3 i could auto kick ppl that join a random and auto afk

    im very anoyed that they didnt change it

    the only thing i wish they'd give us now is the ability to start a random if a dps declines as a dps quing its another 15 min wait sometimes if a dps declined all heroics are 4 manable now except the icc heroics....

    also i hope that if u do get kicked u get told why u get kicked when u leave the grp coz id be very anoying for ppl that do wat there suposed to be doing to be kicked for no reason and i dosent help the played being kicked if they dont know why there being kicked

    also i hope this stops ppl from being kicked from fos hc coz some noob wants NES all for him/her self.

    sorry for the wall of text


  10. #10

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    "Requires skill" does not mean 20 sources of damage. It can also mean you have to juggle a lot to maximize the damage from 2 sources. That is the design of the mage in a nutshell: a dominant nuke with a lot of infrastructure to prop up that nuke.
    This.

  11. #11

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    arcane mages are easy, this guy is strange. Everyone got cooldowns and every1 got mana/rage/energy managment.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire rainCZ's Avatar
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    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Arthas RP 3:20

  13. #13

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon
    cos changes are nice but increasing the deserter debuff still wont stop me from leaving ok on my resto shammy

    dont see why i should sit and wipe on spell flingers
    Taking some initiative and interrupting them your self is hard isn't it. We should all be able to sit back and do nothing in instances

  14. #14

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexus2089
    Taking some initiative and interrupting them your self is hard isn't it. We should all be able to sit back and do nothing in instances
    i do interupt 1 of them since i can only do 1 at a time with a 6 sec cd

    so ill rephrase the question then

    why should i waste my time on spell flingers if no1 else is gona bother to interupt them?

  15. #15

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon
    i do interupt 1 of them since i can only do 1 at a time with a 6 sec cd

    so ill rephrase the question then

    why should i waste my time on spell flingers if no1 else is gona bother to interupt them?

    6 sec cd is more than enough, i can manage to keep them locked up between Holy Wrath and HoJ. One fail group that couldn't interrupt/kill flingers in time doesn't mean they all fail.

  16. #16

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Excellent reason to boot people from a random ! ;D

  17. #17
    Deleted

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon
    i do interupt 1 of them since i can only do 1 at a time with a 6 sec cd

    so ill rephrase the question then

    why should i waste my time on spell flingers if no1 else is gona bother to interupt them?
    The Spellflingers have a 10 second cast on their Shadow thingy. You have a 6 second cooldown. Interrupt the first Spellflinger and 6 seconds later the second!
    Truth is, you do have to put in a tiny bit of effort to make this work, but that'll stop you from complaining that the game is too easy.

  18. #18
    Deleted

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    About time they fixed CoT ;D

  19. #19

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    LOL at anyone who thinks that arcane mages simply hit two buttons to nuke bosses. There are a lot of things that go into maximizing arcane damage. Keeping Slow up on a boss, for starters, is very useful if you're specced into that for extra damage. With the tier 10 4-set, you're probably going to use Mirror Image to maximize your damage, and you will also probably use the arcane missiles proc from the 2 set bonus to get a little haste. Using FF bolts doesn't hurt, if you're in a position to stand still for a second, because you can put a debuff on the enemy (You can get away with this on a boss like Lady Deathwhisper, especially if you're on the mana shield and not the adds). If you just stood in one spot and spammed Arcane Blast the whole fight, its very likely you will just run out of mana, and have to Evocate or something, which can be terrible if you're fighting a boss where you have to move a lot. (Yeah, just try to finish your Evocate on Marrowgar when a coldflame path is headed for you) There are of course a lot of nice buttons you will be pushing other than Arcane Blast at relevant times, like Presence of Mind, Icy Veins, and Arcane Power, any trinkets you might have, etc. Also, having a mana shield up for damage absorption/ spellpower increase (Incanter's Absorption) can help - especially in a fight like Festergut, where there is a lot of raid damage. And of course, there's always killing trash with Blizzard... you know... just 'cause. On the other hand, I miss playing a fire mage...

  20. #20

    Re: 3.3.3 Random Dungeons, Blue posts, WoW TCG

    Some nice updates to the LFG system, glad they are keeping the kick CD, if someone is being an ass you still have the /ignore function and i dont want to see ppl geting kicked as soon as they happen to make a slight mistake. There should be a good reason for a kick

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