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  1. #401

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Rather strange and very american way of thinking that FROST/ICE is almost equal to "fast" aka dual wield.

    In that logical sense, Blood would be far better choice for DW dps role and Frost for tank role.

  2. #402
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Pythagoreant
    This sounds like something a high-end raid DK tank would like, but people with DK alts who don't try to min-max and just play what's fun for them will NOT like. I belong in the latter category, and am very sad to see frost tanking die.
    They have to do it. It's just way too much work to try to continue with the status quo.

  3. #403

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Korbu
    Never have been really fond of Blood Tanking, just doesn't seem a good choice taking the health generation of Blood over the damage mitigation of Frost, especially considering it's the Healer's job to heal you. Healing yourself makes the Healer's job easier, but so does taking less damage.
    Makes more sense to me for Frost to be the tank spec than Blood. Make Icebound Fortitude a Frost talent, and that right there will make Frost undeniably better at tanking than Blood. Also move all the DW talents to Unholy, since even Unholy Presence is about speed. DW Tanking, are you serious? You must really love the repair bills from parry gibs on Festergut when he has 3 stacks of Inhaled Blight.
    This post was so much fail that I had to register to reply to it. (Well I was going to anyway,but you made me do it asap).

    Blood has the highest EH out of 3 tanking trees, and believe it or not, that goes into mitigation as well. You remind me of arguments a year ago about frost having the % miss / UA while blood having self healing and higher EH. Get over it. It has been proven that blood is the better tanking tree. People who have downed hardmodes use blood to tank. Seriously, get over it.


    In bold: This really makes me wonder if you even have a tanking character. Festergut does NOT have parry haste enabled. Almost all bossese in ICC have it DISabled. DW tanking is viable, and trades mitigation for threat. (2 handers always have higher EH considering they're on par with two one-handers). It is however not recommended to dual wield tank in icc because by that time, threat shouldn't be a problem to you. But people still do it because its fun.

    IBF is our shield wall,sticking it into only one tree is ridiculous. Its used in pvp as well as in pve, by both tanks and dps. Do you even raid on your death knight? Is he even out of Acherus yet?

  4. #404

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    altho i totaly agree with 1 tank tree.
    i realy thought it would be frost. just seems more like a tank tree, but i gues that will be the dual wield dps tree.

    might pick up my DK again, sounds promising
    "I am the King of Rome, and above grammar."

  5. #405

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    The one and only thing that made the Death Knight Class more interesting as a tank compared to the other 3 classes gone...

    For the reasoning.

    "Why the about face? We actually thought the “tri tank” experiment worked out okay. We suspected there would always be a “best” tanking tree, because that’s the way these things shake out, but we hoped it would be close enough that many players could tank with their favorite tree. When we tried out this design for Wrath of the Lich King, we were using it as a test case to see if we wanted to do similar things with the warrior and paladin talent trees."
    It showed that it was a possibility, it was a refreshing change, and properly the one thing that has come out as overall positive in my eyes ever since Vanilla, and now it will be gone...

    "It started to feel unfair to the other tank classes that we had to spend so much effort tweaking three types of DK tanks, and it even started to feel unfair to the DK that we couldn’t focus their tanking experience."
    Evidently about $$, so go out and say so, we are all in trying times here and we have to cut of extra expenses, adding more diversity to the other classes is more expensive and therefore not the choice. The feeling from the community will be no more different in the future however, that is just plainly naive... "That class is getting more attention than me QQ" will always happen, and who would not have expected the DK to require more tuning for now, not only is it a special case of a class, it is a new class as well with allot of data missing in that fact. Sure it is a more expensive class design, but is a design I would rather have seen more of except for less. But also the hypocrites we are, whenever a class gets a change that makes is a "Nerf" as such, the time is well spent, but otherwise we QQ some more about that they now get more attention.

    But yes, it is expensive to maintain this design, I can agree on that, so say that instead.

    "One bit of feedback that really struck home was the DK players who said, essentially, “I look at the Protection tree and I’m jealous of all of the cool tools they have to help their tanking. As a DK, I have to pick and choose tanking talents from within a sea of dps talents.” "
    That is just silly, I'm Jealous of that mages can blink, rouges can stealth, druids can transform, warriors can charge, paladins can bubble, priests can fear, in the end the only way out of the above is to have one single class, one single tree, or there will always be Class A people thinking they need Class B stuff.

    If you are jealous of the warrior/druid/paladin design as a Death Knight tank, have you ever just thought that MAYBE you are just simply playing the wrong class?

    "In Cataclysm, Blood will be the death knight version of a Protection tree. It will have passive talent tree bonuses that reflect tanking. It will have tools, such as a Demo Shout equivalent, necessary for tanking. Several of the more fun tanking talents from Frost and Unholy will be moved into Blood. We will be able to revise (or even remove) clunky mechanics like Rune Strike and focus on letting DKs generate threat with their normal Blood tanking rotation."
    Fair enough, the only really written out as it is good explanation, I was actually thinking about what the heck they would do about the Death Knight and it's trees when they announced the passive bonus... It could properly be done, but I can see this is a much better path for now. or well that was a wrong wording, it is a more secure path... They won't be prone to as many fuck-ups doing it like this... So fair enough, I can eat that.

    "More exciting death knight news coming up soon in the preview."
    So far I have NOT seen ONE single item of exiting stuff in Cataclysm.
    And ill bet that exciting can as well be replaced with "disappointing" in his post, at least from my point of view.

    Ohh well... I'm not planning to buy Cataclysm as it is, so fuelling me with reasons not to is not a bad thing I guess...
    Only sad thing about that is the fact of all the people I enjoy chatting with inside the Guild I am in, will need to find another way for the future to keep that contact...

  6. #406

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Like another comment already said, this change is so disappointing that it forced me to register and reply (and yes, I know I am crying on wrong gravestone as designers will hardly care).

    I am playing warcraft since it's beginning, mostly as tank even though I tried all other roles in raids as well (not all classes yet though). Death Knight is third tanking class I played, one I am playing now and certainly most fun.

    Playing warrior or druid tank were rather boring from the aspect that you do not really have any choice. Majority of talents are mandatory (mandatory to take or mandatory to skip) and you are locked there. Only true choice is between few talents that were situational. Concept of talents is worthless if you do not have choice. It is about same fun as just checking tank/dps option in menu.

    Playing death knight gave me choice between three trees for tanking (and few less usual hybrid builds), each having it's strengths and weaknesses, each bringing different benefits to raid (buffs/self heal/faster running for kiting...). I did tried them all and I like them all. This change promises to lock me back into one tree and I only have to hope (and doubt) that the new design will make talents more fun and really give us more true choices between talents.

    I saw the DK design as the way to go for other classes too. After designers pretty much removed hybrid builds from game in WotLK to simplify their work, I hoped perhaps this is the way how to bring more options for players again. Why the hell is subtlety not useable in raids? Why is 95% of PvP warriors arms and 80% PvE dps warriors fury? That is failure of design. That means people did not really have a choice (pick different class/spec example if you do not agree with these in particular).

    Argument that DK tanking is harder to balance than other trees (those where you can lock players in mandatory talents) is quite cheap if you consider that more than 10M players are paying the subscription every month. I am sure the "resources are limited", I know these phrases from business world... But with the income this game brings it is shame to even talk about higher costs of few designers that would have to be hired to do it properly.

    After trying many other classes in endgame, I was really happy with death knight. This change has potential to take this from me. Perhaps in context of other changes it will turn out good. Without that context it is big disappointment for me, one that may make me leave the class.

    P.S. And yeah, I know that warcraft is here for masses, not few enthusiasts. Who cares about my game experience when whole army of DKKillers, SlayerDKs, LOLDKLOLOLOLs will have their game nice and easy finally and will hapilly pay their subscriptions. That is the business decision and good one. It is my fault I fall in wrong category.

  7. #407

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Just thinking about a tank who also heals himself while doing his normal attacks could be generating more threat than a tank who can not self heal. Doing high amounts of damgae (threat) + being in correct stance/presence/form (more threat) + healing (a little threat) = a lot of threat.

    The idea of self healing intrested me from a healers POV. In cata they said we will have to worry about mana more, with a tank who can heal himself/herself a bit maybe my mana concerns will be less.

    Just a side idea about how to make healing "more fun," Boost its threat. Then if a tank isn't geared enough (aka a stam stacking mana sponge) instead of having to worry about running out of mana before dps can kill the boss, you have to worry about pulling threat from the tank because you are having to heal him/her so much.

    That way healers would have to decide if they want to take talents that makes their threat less like http://www.wowhead.com/spell=14785 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=17120 and http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29191 for tanks who are still getting geared, or just go for thoughtput talents for fear of pulling agro.

  8. #408

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    oh my god... it' sux

    Blizzard wanted to simplify their work so they fucked up the whole DK tree...

    I really enjoy the Blood DK's DPS play style even if it not so efficient in icc HM (cuz of the -10% dps loss).
    Moreover it's the only spec with such a great DPS burst...

    Unholy's gameplay sux so much (waaaaaay toooo slooooooowww zzzzzzZZzzzzZZzzz...) that it's much more appropriated to switch this spec into tank's one (better mitigation etc.)

    With Shadowmourne (or any kind of 2H weapon), the only alternative will be Unholy.

    less possibilities = less fun = make the game so boring : everybody looks the same/have the same spec/template etc...

  9. #409

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamtali
    Like another comment already said, this change is so disappointing that it forced me to register and reply (and yes, I know I am crying on wrong gravestone as designers will hardly care).

    I am playing warcraft since it's beginning, mostly as tank even though I tried all other roles in raids as well (not all classes yet though). Death Knight is third tanking class I played, one I am playing now and certainly most fun.

    Playing warrior or druid tank were rather boring from the aspect that you do not really have any choice. Majority of talents are mandatory (mandatory to take or mandatory to skip) and you are locked there. Only true choice is between few talents that were situational. Concept of talents is worthless if you do not have choice. It is about same fun as just checking tank/dps option in menu.

    Playing death knight gave me choice between three trees for tanking (and few less usual hybrid builds), each having it's strengths and weaknesses, each bringing different benefits to raid (buffs/self heal/faster running for kiting...). I did tried them all and I like them all. This change promises to lock me back into one tree and I only have to hope (and doubt) that the new design will make talents more fun and really give us more true choices between talents.

    I saw the DK design as the way to go for other classes too. After designers pretty much removed hybrid builds from game in WotLK to simplify their work, I hoped perhaps this is the way how to bring more options for players again. Why the hell is subtlety not useable in raids? Why is 95% of PvP warriors arms and 80% PvE dps warriors fury? That is failure of design. That means people did not really have a choice (pick different class/spec example if you do not agree with these in particular).

    Argument that DK tanking is harder to balance than other trees (those where you can lock players in mandatory talents) is quite cheap if you consider that more than 10M players are paying the subscription every month. I am sure the "resources are limited", I know these phrases from business world... But with the income this game brings it is shame to even talk about higher costs of few designers that would have to be hired to do it properly.

    After trying many other classes in endgame, I was really happy with death knight. This change has potential to take this from me. Perhaps in context of other changes it will turn out good. Without that context it is big disappointment for me, one that may make me leave the class.

    P.S. And yeah, I know that warcraft is here for masses, not few enthusiasts. Who cares about my game experience when whole army of DKKillers, SlayerDKs, LOLDKLOLOLOLs will have their game nice and easy finally and will hapilly pay their subscriptions. That is the business decision and good one. It is my fault I fall in wrong category.
    The new mastery system is designed to give you a choice when speccing talents, so...

  10. #410
    Deleted

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    1. Blood has always been my main spec for DPS so I'm pretty suicidle over that matter.

    2. Although Blood makes alot of sence to be used for tanking, Frost IMO makes even more sence with all the ice n all, being as ice cud strengthen* your armour and resist spells.

    Although I am gutted, I look forward to the changes and am not going to QQ about it (only to my fellow friends : ) :-X

    Its quite funny really. I think DW dk's will soon be made for unholy and 2H will be frost dps IMO would be best, as like said before unholy is all about speed. and something about Frost I cant put my finger on would make more sence to be focused on 2H. My point i'm supose to make is the fact my dps spec is Blood and my tank spec is Frost : so guessing my specs will be complete opisite to now :-\ yet I still look forward to seeing these changes and actually giving it a go before I make a decision to complain.

  11. #411

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Im happy with this change because im a blood tank and i think it is a much better tank spec than frost.
    For tanking: blood is probobly going to use 2H's but i think you will be able to go in to the frost tree a bit and go DW, if you want.
    For dps: unholy will be the 2H dps (If its any good) and frost the DW dps.
    This might not be what they do (its hard to tell at this point) i guess we will have to wait for the class discussion thing toomorow.

  12. #412
    Deleted

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamtali
    I saw the DK design as the way to go for other classes too. After designers pretty much removed hybrid builds from game in WotLK to simplify their work, I hoped perhaps this is the way how to bring more options for players again. Why the hell is subtlety not useable in raids? Why is 95% of PvP warriors arms and 80% PvE dps warriors fury? That is failure of design. That means people did not really have a choice (pick different class/spec example if you do not agree with these in particular).
    I agree with this part. but this would be very hard to make all classes meet their roles in all specs. but I think it would be nice if most specs would be a choice other than being the "best" spec for that sort of game play.

  13. #413

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by Unahim
    The new mastery system is designed to give you a choice when speccing talents, so...
    Mastery system as I understand it from information we got is tied to talent tree. If all trees would still be viable for tanking, each could have different mastery bonuses and there would really be another interesting aspect as choice. But this change just makes it easy for designers, blood will get some "be hard to kill" like bonus and all tanks will be locked in it. Frost and Unholy trees will get different bonuses, probable something like "be badbum dps" and "be wraftful PvPer".

    Based on our gear the bonus will be lower or higher. I fail to see where is the choice.

  14. #414

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    There're plenty enough Death Knights tanking as Blood, atleast, our Death Knights tank hardmodes as Blood. u.u
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  15. #415

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Haha suck it blood DPS, my frost is staying uber dps forever
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  16. #416

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Now all tanks are the same, is it easier to balance? yes it is... but all classes dont need to work exactly the same, it takes the fun away.

  17. #417
    Field Marshal deathleach's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Kind of a weird choice if you ask me. Frost has always been the iconic dk tanking spec (even though we can tank with all of them).
    Now I have to go and dual wield or become a pet class, both of wich I don''t want to. I really hope they will rethink this. :-\
    Why is the shield generator always outside the shield?

  18. #418

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    Quote Originally Posted by deathleach
    Kind of a weird choice if you ask me. Frost has always been the iconic dk tanking spec (even though we can tank with all of them).
    Now I have to go and dual wield or become a pet class, both of wich I don''t want to. I really hope they will rethink this. :-\
    They wont, blood dps is almost as boring as pally dps anyways. Frost dps rapes faces and so does Unholy, they ar also changing the rune system and making some abilities have runic power AND rune requirements. Once the changes all come in I am sure all you nay Sayer set in your ways Blood DK will like the other trees
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  19. #419

    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    As a non-DK, i don't understand why they don't make frost the new tanking tree. Well...Frost-presence..so Frost..well....you know.

    Anyhow, they would do themselves a favor by making all DK Tanks DW-Tanks for the sake of itemisation n stuff.
    Even though i understand that most of you prefer 2htanking.
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  20. #420
    Mechagnome ejzo's Avatar
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    Re: Death Knights will tank as Blood in Cataclysm

    FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU!!! :'(


    looks like i will have a new main in cataclysm
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